Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[samsara]

Starts at 2:39.

The J-20, the first combat training over the sea (2018-05-09)

https://twitter.com/x/status/994392432904110086

 

[beijingwalker]

new materials used in helmet of China air force

 

[Gomig-21]

Where did you find the article? Can you provide us a link?

Please do, @Gomig-21. It really sounds a cut above the usual cr*p that gets posted in places like The Diplomat and The National Interest.

Could you link this interview. Thanks.

Sorry, guys. I looked all over the place for it and couldn't find it. I get bombarded with news clips from my ISP and if I don't save it, it's almost impossible to backtrack and find it unless I save it as new ones flood and bury the old ones.

Anyone who thinks that the USAF is ignorant towards PLAAF capabilities is sorely misinformed. Let me remind them that the Air Force Chief of Staff and Lockheed Martin are not comprised of online amateur journalists or the so called “Western experts”. The National Interest or Business Insider does not represent DoD’s view of the PLAAF! Just because a stupid analyst derides the J-20’s stealth features does not mean it is indicative of the USAF.

That's why it caught my attention and what's interesting is that it's eerily similar to that Business Insider article, except that was through a scientific think-tank who was saying similar things, but he wasn't half as complementary or detailed. You don't usually hear anyone from the US military -- in any capacity -- say things like that unless they're trying to lobby congress for funds by purposely complementing the opponent and showing them as a viable threat that needs to be addressed with more funds for R&D.

Here's the Business Insider article.

Close-up photos of Russia's new 'stealth' jet reveal its true purpose — and it's a big threat to the US
Alex Lockie

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...-a-big-threat-to-the-us/ar-AAx1Le2?ocid=ientp

Business Insider Su-57 Moscow Victory Day parade 2018
Russia's "fifth-generation," "combat-tested," "stealth" fighter jet has a lot of dubious claims made about it, but recent close-up photography of the plane from Russia's Victory Day parade on May 9 reveals it's just not a stealth jet.

Russia has tried to sell the plane as a stealth jet to India, but India recently backed out of the program. Considering a shrinking economy and defense spending, it's unclear now if Russia will ever produce the Su-57 in reasonable quantities.

Business Insider asked a senior scientist working on stealth aircraft how to evaluate the plane's stealth, and the results were not good.

The scientist, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitive nature of stealth work, pointed out six major problems from the pictures.

First, take a look at the seams between the flaps on the aircraft — they're big. For reference, look at the US's F-22, the stealthiest fighter jet on earth:

The flaps at the end of the wing have very tight seams, which don't scatter radar waves, thereby maintaining a low profile.

Secondly, look at the Su-57's vertical rear tails. They have a wide gap where they stray from the fuselage. Keeping a tight profile is essential to stealth, according to the scientist.

Look at the F-35's rear tails for reference — they touch the whole way.

Third, look at the nose of the Su-57 — it has noticeable seams around the canopy, which kills stealth. The F-35 and F-22 share a smooth, sloped look.

It's likely Russia doesn't have the machining technology to produce such a surface. The actual nose of the Su-57 looks bolted on with noticeable rivets.

Finally, take a look at the underside of the Su-57 — it has rivets and sharp edges everywhere. "If nothing else convinces that no effort at [stealth] was attempted, this is the clincher," said the scientist.

Russia didn't even try at stealth, but that's not their purpose

As the scientist pointed out, Russia didn't even appear to seriously try to make a stealth aircraft. The Su-57 takes certain measures, like storing weapons internally, that improve the stealth, but it's leaps and bounds from a US or even Chinese effort.

This highlights the true purpose of Russia's new fighter — not to evade radar itself, but to kill US stealth jets like the F-35 and F-22.

The Su-57 will feature side mounted radars along its nose, an infrared search and track radar up front, and additional radars in front and back, as well as on the wings.

As The Drive's Tyler Rogoway points out, the side-mounted radars on the Su-57 allow it to excel at a tactic called "beaming" that can trick the radars on US stealth jets. Beaming entails flying perpendicular to a fighter's radar in a way that makes the fighter dismiss the signature of the jet as a non-target.

Any fighter can "beam" by flying sideways, but the Su-57, with sideways-mounted radars, can actually guide missiles and score kills from that direction.

Russia has long taken a different approach to fighter aircraft than the US, but the Su-57 shows that even without the fancy precision-machined stealth of an F-22, Moscow's jets can remain dangerous and relevant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing I will point out is that it is a bit unfair what this guy said about the V-stabs on the Su-57. He compares the all-movable surfaces to permanently molded and attached V-stabs with rudders. If you have a fully moving V-stab, it won't be seamless like a fixed one with a separate rudder.

There's another piece of literature (I'll be damned if I can find that one either) that mentions how the J-20's cockpit & avionics is probably just as good as the F-22s.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Sorry, guys. I looked all over the place for it and couldn't find it. I get bombarded with news clips from my ISP and if I don't save it, it's almost impossible to backtrack and find it unless I save it as new ones flood and bury the old ones.



That's why it caught my attention and what's interesting is that it's eerily similar to that Business Insider article, except that was through a scientific think-tank who was saying similar things, but he wasn't half as complementary or detailed. You don't usually hear anyone from the US military -- in any capacity -- say things like that unless they're trying to lobby congress for funds by purposely complementing the opponent and showing them as a viable threat that needs to be addressed with more funds for R&D.

Here's the Business Insider article.

Close-up photos of Russia's new 'stealth' jet reveal its true purpose — and it's a big threat to the US
Alex Lockie

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/close-up-photos-of-russias-new-stealth-jet-reveal-its-true-purpose-—-and-its-a-big-threat-to-the-us/ar-AAx1Le2?ocid=ientp

Business Insider Su-57 Moscow Victory Day parade 2018
Russia's "fifth-generation," "combat-tested," "stealth" fighter jet has a lot of dubious claims made about it, but recent close-up photography of the plane from Russia's Victory Day parade on May 9 reveals it's just not a stealth jet.

Russia has tried to sell the plane as a stealth jet to India, but India recently backed out of the program. Considering a shrinking economy and defense spending, it's unclear now if Russia will ever produce the Su-57 in reasonable quantities.

Business Insider asked a senior scientist working on stealth aircraft how to evaluate the plane's stealth, and the results were not good.

The scientist, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitive nature of stealth work, pointed out six major problems from the pictures.

First, take a look at the seams between the flaps on the aircraft — they're big. For reference, look at the US's F-22, the stealthiest fighter jet on earth:

The flaps at the end of the wing have very tight seams, which don't scatter radar waves, thereby maintaining a low profile.

Secondly, look at the Su-57's vertical rear tails. They have a wide gap where they stray from the fuselage. Keeping a tight profile is essential to stealth, according to the scientist.

Look at the F-35's rear tails for reference — they touch the whole way.

Third, look at the nose of the Su-57 — it has noticeable seams around the canopy, which kills stealth. The F-35 and F-22 share a smooth, sloped look.

It's likely Russia doesn't have the machining technology to produce such a surface. The actual nose of the Su-57 looks bolted on with noticeable rivets.

Finally, take a look at the underside of the Su-57 — it has rivets and sharp edges everywhere. "If nothing else convinces that no effort at [stealth] was attempted, this is the clincher," said the scientist.

Russia didn't even try at stealth, but that's not their purpose

As the scientist pointed out, Russia didn't even appear to seriously try to make a stealth aircraft. The Su-57 takes certain measures, like storing weapons internally, that improve the stealth, but it's leaps and bounds from a US or even Chinese effort.

This highlights the true purpose of Russia's new fighter — not to evade radar itself, but to kill US stealth jets like the F-35 and F-22.

The Su-57 will feature side mounted radars along its nose, an infrared search and track radar up front, and additional radars in front and back, as well as on the wings.

As The Drive's Tyler Rogoway points out, the side-mounted radars on the Su-57 allow it to excel at a tactic called "beaming" that can trick the radars on US stealth jets. Beaming entails flying perpendicular to a fighter's radar in a way that makes the fighter dismiss the signature of the jet as a non-target.

Any fighter can "beam" by flying sideways, but the Su-57, with sideways-mounted radars, can actually guide missiles and score kills from that direction.

Russia has long taken a different approach to fighter aircraft than the US, but the Su-57 shows that even without the fancy precision-machined stealth of an F-22, Moscow's jets can remain dangerous and relevant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing I will point out is that it is a bit unfair what this guy said about the V-stabs on the Su-57. He compares the all-movable surfaces to permanently molded and attached V-stabs with rudders. If you have a fully moving V-stab, it won't be seamless like a fixed one with a separate rudder.

There's another piece of literature (I'll be damned if I can find that one either) that mentions how the J-20's cockpit & avionics is probably just as good as the F-22s.

Please don't quote Alex Lockie. He is a very bad source (almost on par with David Axe).

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

Anyone who thinks that the USAF is ignorant towards PLAAF capabilities is sorely misinformed.

I really don't think so. I don't think the quality American intelligence (public or classified) is far above the level of David Axe, Kyle Mizokami, or Alex Lockie. There was a great discussion over on SDF recently about how Robert Gates was completely blindsided by the emergence of the J-20 - if American intelligence knew better than it did (does), the US would never have cancelled the F-22.

There's another piece of literature (I'll be damned if I can find that one either) that mentions how the J-20's cockpit & avionics is probably just as good as the F-22s.

They're not as good, they're far better than the F-22's. The F-22's cockpit and avionics belong in a museum of technology.

 

[YeBeWarned]

Wonderful Fighter Plane ... shows the hard work and dedication of the Chinese People

 

[帅的一匹]

I really don't think so. I don't think the quality American intelligence (public or classified) is far above the level of David Axe, Kyle Mizokami, or Alex Lockie. There was a great discussion over on SDF recently about how Robert Gates was completely blindsided by the emergence of the J-20 - if American intelligence knew better than it did (does), the US would never have cancelled the F-22.

They're not as good, they're far better than the F-22's. The F-22's cockpit and avionics belong in a museum of technology.

The arrogance make their eyes blind.

 

[LKJ86]

 

[siegecrossbow]

View attachment 473517

You can't officially induct an aircraft into the PLAAF unless it has fired dumb rockets.

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

You can't officially induct an aircraft into the PLAAF unless it has fired dumb rockets.

For real. I've yet to see footage of any J aircraft carrying, let alone dropping a PGM. Plenty of rockets though...

 

[Beast]

For real. I've yet to see footage of any J aircraft carrying, let alone dropping a PGM. Plenty of rockets though...

Better than Russian Su-57/PAKFA that never open their weapon bay.

 

[rendong]

View attachment 473517

愚蠢的CG

 

[Figaro]

Sorry, guys. I looked all over the place for it and couldn't find it. I get bombarded with news clips from my ISP and if I don't save it, it's almost impossible to backtrack and find it unless I save it as new ones flood and bury the old ones.



That's why it caught my attention and what's interesting is that it's eerily similar to that Business Insider article, except that was through a scientific think-tank who was saying similar things, but he wasn't half as complementary or detailed. You don't usually hear anyone from the US military -- in any capacity -- say things like that unless they're trying to lobby congress for funds by purposely complementing the opponent and showing them as a viable threat that needs to be addressed with more funds for R&D.

Here's the Business Insider article.

Close-up photos of Russia's new 'stealth' jet reveal its true purpose — and it's a big threat to the US
Alex Lockie

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/close-up-photos-of-russias-new-stealth-jet-reveal-its-true-purpose-—-and-its-a-big-threat-to-the-us/ar-AAx1Le2?ocid=ientp

Business Insider Su-57 Moscow Victory Day parade 2018
Russia's "fifth-generation," "combat-tested," "stealth" fighter jet has a lot of dubious claims made about it, but recent close-up photography of the plane from Russia's Victory Day parade on May 9 reveals it's just not a stealth jet.

Russia has tried to sell the plane as a stealth jet to India, but India recently backed out of the program. Considering a shrinking economy and defense spending, it's unclear now if Russia will ever produce the Su-57 in reasonable quantities.

Business Insider asked a senior scientist working on stealth aircraft how to evaluate the plane's stealth, and the results were not good.

The scientist, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitive nature of stealth work, pointed out six major problems from the pictures.

First, take a look at the seams between the flaps on the aircraft — they're big. For reference, look at the US's F-22, the stealthiest fighter jet on earth:

The flaps at the end of the wing have very tight seams, which don't scatter radar waves, thereby maintaining a low profile.

Secondly, look at the Su-57's vertical rear tails. They have a wide gap where they stray from the fuselage. Keeping a tight profile is essential to stealth, according to the scientist.

Look at the F-35's rear tails for reference — they touch the whole way.

Third, look at the nose of the Su-57 — it has noticeable seams around the canopy, which kills stealth. The F-35 and F-22 share a smooth, sloped look.

It's likely Russia doesn't have the machining technology to produce such a surface. The actual nose of the Su-57 looks bolted on with noticeable rivets.

Finally, take a look at the underside of the Su-57 — it has rivets and sharp edges everywhere. "If nothing else convinces that no effort at [stealth] was attempted, this is the clincher," said the scientist.

Russia didn't even try at stealth, but that's not their purpose

As the scientist pointed out, Russia didn't even appear to seriously try to make a stealth aircraft. The Su-57 takes certain measures, like storing weapons internally, that improve the stealth, but it's leaps and bounds from a US or even Chinese effort.

This highlights the true purpose of Russia's new fighter — not to evade radar itself, but to kill US stealth jets like the F-35 and F-22.

The Su-57 will feature side mounted radars along its nose, an infrared search and track radar up front, and additional radars in front and back, as well as on the wings.

As The Drive's Tyler Rogoway points out, the side-mounted radars on the Su-57 allow it to excel at a tactic called "beaming" that can trick the radars on US stealth jets. Beaming entails flying perpendicular to a fighter's radar in a way that makes the fighter dismiss the signature of the jet as a non-target.

Any fighter can "beam" by flying sideways, but the Su-57, with sideways-mounted radars, can actually guide missiles and score kills from that direction.

Russia has long taken a different approach to fighter aircraft than the US, but the Su-57 shows that even without the fancy precision-machined stealth of an F-22, Moscow's jets can remain dangerous and relevant.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One thing I will point out is that it is a bit unfair what this guy said about the V-stabs on the Su-57. He compares the all-movable surfaces to permanently molded and attached V-stabs with rudders. If you have a fully moving V-stab, it won't be seamless like a fixed one with a separate rudder.

There's another piece of literature (I'll be damned if I can find that one either) that mentions how the J-20's cockpit & avionics is probably just as good as the F-22s.

Of course the J-20's avionics and sensor suite is much better than that of the F-22. One was designed in the late 80s while the other just entered service. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that the J-20 sensor suite is a equal to that of the F-35 ... both of which are superior to the Su-57 in this regard. If you read Dr. Karlo Kopp's RCS study and other statements by academics, you'll find that the J-20 stealth shaping was heavily influenced by that of the F-22. And yes, we do not that the Su-57 is not a VLO fighter ... nothing out of the ordinary. As for the Russians, I do not know what they were thinking ... they are still stuck in the age of dog-fighting it seems with emphasis on subsonic maneuverability. The Su-57 may be pretty at an air show but not so much in an actual fight ...

 

[帅的一匹]

Of course the J-20's avionics and sensor suite is much better than that of the F-22. One was designed in the late 80s while the other just entered service. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that the J-20 sensor suite is a equal to that of the F-35 ... both of which are superior to the Su-57 in this regard. If you read Dr. Karlo Kopp's RCS study and other statements by academics, you'll find that the J-20 stealth shaping was heavily influenced by that of the F-22. And yes, we do not that the Su-57 is not a VLO fighter ... nothing out of the ordinary. As for the Russians, I do not know what they were thinking ... they are still stuck in the age of dog-fighting it seems with emphasis on subsonic maneuverability. The Su-57 may be pretty at an air show but not so much in an actual fight ...

三十年河东，三十年河西。

 

[Gomig-21]

They're not as good, they're far better than the F-22's. The F-22's cockpit and avionics belong in a museum of technology.

Wah! That's pretty harsh, ma man.

Of course the J-20's avionics and sensor suite is much better than that of the F-22. One was designed in the late 80s while the other just entered service. In fact, I wouldn't hesitate to say that the J-20 sensor suite is a equal to that of the F-35 ... both of which are superior to the Su-57 in this regard. If you read Dr. Karlo Kopp's RCS study and other statements by academics, you'll find that the J-20 stealth shaping was heavily influenced by that of the F-22. And yes, we do not that the Su-57 is not a VLO fighter ... nothing out of the ordinary. As for the Russians, I do not know what they were thinking ... they are still stuck in the age of dog-fighting it seems with emphasis on subsonic maneuverability. The Su-57 may be pretty at an air show but not so much in an actual fight ...

I think the Russians felt the pressure to keep up with the US when they designed the PAK-FA and didn't take certain R&D procedures into consideration, or might have even bypassed them for the sake of timing and figured they would get back to addressing them once prototypes were built. I think that was the flaw in the way they approached the Su-57 and now they're dealing with ways to circumvent some of those shortcomings that they knew they were going to run into. Plasma cloud technologies and crazy things of that sort were all just shortcuts to a slightly premature design that while not necessarily bad in frontal and side shaping, the underside seems to be its biggest problem area. The rivets are hardly an issue with tape and RAM which all use, it's too many 90 degree corners, especially between the hanging engine nacelles and the belly where the weapons bays are.

But what was said about the v-stabs on the PAK-FA applies just the same on the J-20 because of them being all-movable surfaces, instead of fixed V-stabs with separate rudders. However, first thing I thought of was how the YF-23 was supposedly stealthier than the YF-22 and it had all-movable stabilators which must have seams/gaps in order to function and rotate. So I don't think that was a particularly fair criticism of the Su-57 or the J-20.

But I hope you fellas don't get too bent out of shape when someone disagrees or offers a contrarian view. But just because the F-22 came out in what, 1996? That certainly doesn't mean it's a museum relic as far as its avionics compared to the J-20. That's a bit biased to be perfectly honest with you. One thing you might not be factoring is the immense head start AND experience the US has over everyone in all major aspects of aviation and technology as well as their abilities to constantly upgrade. If one is to be objective, one MUST take these things into consideration.

There's also other major factors that are associated with the overall prowess of a 5th generation aircraft and that is the engines. I don't think that anyone of us here are in any disagreement that the US makes the best military aircraft engines and has been for a long time. The P&W F119 engines on the Raptor are a huge part of its combat performance capabilities.

And BTW, the F-22 is getting a complete revamp of its glass cockpit and avionics that includes AI etc..
https://www.themaven.net/warriormav...ors-radar-avionics-ai-BMw9vbS3xk2dymJlS4PW2g/