Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[That Guy]

"...This is an internet forum, what does HONOR matter in an internet argument? Stop being over dramatic."

BUT IF one does seriously take your last statement (I put it in RED BOLD), this very forum, PDF, a moderated forum with some particular topic of interests, mainly military related, WON'T EVEN EXIST.... or this forum will just function like the YAHOO BOARD LOL

and you just belittle this very forum, PDF... for IF it behaves or is operated like the wild wild west forum, or acts like the fake news den such as Yahoo board, I for sure won't ever waste my time here... from the very beginning!!

Not really, PDF is a specific type of forum, and it's rules are meant to create discussion, which is why you hardly see Mods ban people who insult them, and only act when people insult each other; the fear being that the mods will be accused to abusing their privilege.

I'm not so much belittling PDF, as much as I am saying that trying to accuse others of dishonor is nothing more than an attempt to gain needless sympathy and hinder discussion....thus, stop being over dramatic.

Honestly, I don't find any of your contribution in this very thread about J-20, so why play so harsh with your words, and what do you think that gives you so much authority to "speak" or write so boldly here, in this very thread of J-20??? At least I still read the many lengthy, detailed, time-consuming posts to construct by the knowledgeable members like @Asok and many others, even though readers, mods, may not agree with his ideas/opinions etc, but that's just fine. It's weird you know, just like having some passer-by to drop by in some corner then act as if the big-guy-in-power scolding many others on how to behave themselves in that locality!

To tell you the truth, I haven't contributed since maybe between pages 150 to 250, somewhere. That doesn't mean I'm not around, I still occasionally do post here and there. I hardly log in anymore, and tend to choose to remain a lurker, reading other people's opinions.

You can find me usually in political threads, now a days, but even than i tend to not get involved, unless I feel I can contribute.

I chose to comment this time, because I constantly see members here acting in quite a hostile fashion towards people such as @Deino and @gambit , completely dismissing their arguments, because they're "foreign". I have literally argued once with a chinese member, who suggested that physics was different in China...seriously.

Well, it's for all to have some self reflections and self-refrain, last things to see here, a messy state here in a MAIN THREAD about one of the most advanced jet fighter in the world, the J-20!!

I wish all to put the focuses back on things regarding the J-20 itself instead all other things, esp. the messy personal things.

Amen, but won't happen if people keep dismissing each other's arguments, without at least a legitimate reason.

give me my any previous posts that i am saying that @Deino knows nothing btw he is not trying to understand others opinions insisted his opinion and not to give appropriate reasons for his opinion and i am also warned by @Deino sir

Just because you didn't outright say it, doesn't mean you didn't imply it. Again, all you've done is mostly cheerlead and boo.

 

[Ultima Thule]

I chose to comment this time, because I constantly see members here acting in quite a hostile fashion towards people such as @Deino and @gambit , completely dismissing their arguments, because they're "foreign". I have literally argued once with a chinese member, who suggested that physics was different in China...seriously.

because they often shows that hostilities against china you are reported now Than why @Deino don't the reason for his opinions

 

[yusheng]

"...This is an internet forum, what does HONOR matter in an internet argument? Stop being over dramatic."

maybe some "ngo"'s tentacles have reached here;
maybe time for another class to graduate has come;
i have seen many, byebye, i go to my vocation.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Not really, PDF is a specific type of forum, and it's rules are meant to create discussion, which is why you hardly see Mods ban people who insult them, and only act when people insult each other; the fear being that the mods will be accused to abusing their privilege.

I'm not so much belittling PDF, as much as I am saying that trying to accuse others of dishonor is nothing more than an attempt to gain needless sympathy and hinder discussion....thus, stop being over dramatic.


To tell you the truth, I haven't contributed since maybe between pages 150 to 250, somewhere. That doesn't mean I'm not around, I still occasionally do post here and there. I hardly log in anymore, and tend to choose to remain a lurker, reading other people's opinions.

You can find me usually in political threads, now a days, but even than i tend to not get involved, unless I feel I can contribute.

I chose to comment this time, because I constantly see members here acting in quite a hostile fashion towards people such as @Deino and @gambit , completely dismissing their arguments, because they're "foreign". I have literally argued once with a chinese member, who suggested that physics was different in China...seriously.


Amen, but won't happen if people keep dismissing each other's arguments, without at least a legitimate reason.


Just because you didn't outright say it, doesn't mean you didn't imply it. Again, all you've done is mostly cheerlead and boo.

so it is our right to take them in a rude manner and again you are reported for insulting me

 

[Deino]

--------------
Well, it's for all to have some self reflections and self-refrain, last things to see here, a messy state here in a MAIN THREAD about one of the most advanced jet fighter in the world, the J-20!!
I wish all to put the focuses back on things regarding the J-20 itself instead all other things, esp. the messy personal things.

Thanks a lot and IMO it's time to stop each and every off-topic discussion. All arguments are said and as i noted a few pages before right after @Shotgunner51's post to calm down. We all need to have some self reflections and self-refrain to put the focuses back on things regarding the J-20 itself.

Just remind: an argument is an argument, nothing more and as such an opinion regardless how stupid You think it is. As such I will refrain from any headbanging or blablabala-Smiliesy in the same way I expect this from others.

These are the rules. No name, calling, no insult, no personnel bashing. Arguments is what counts.
And if I stick to my opinion that engine is (I won't refrain again), it is an opinion in the same way others think it is already a 24t of thrust delivering WS-15. Period! No need to be offended, no need to report such posts and even less no need for any insults. No-one gets a"time-out" or a warning for a different opinion but for name-calling You get.

If we all apply to these friendly coexistence this topic can indeed put the focuses back on things regarding the J-20 itself.

Deino

 

[Shotgunner51]

Chinese TRRE

Another piece of info about China progress in scramjet, TRRE and world's largest wind tunnel FD-21. Here about TRRE:

TRRE
The turbo-aided rocket-augmented ram/scramjet engine (TRRE), which uses rocket augmentation in order to aid in the transition into the supersonic and hypersonic flight regimes, could be the world's first combined cycle engine to fly in 2025, paving the way for hypersonic near space planes and single-stage space launchers. (Beijing Power Machinery Research Institute)

A hypersonic plane can fly in the "near-space" altitude of 12 miles to 60 miles, allowing it to shoot into orbit with integrated rockets, or fly civilian and military missions in near space. Such a hypersonic plane could circumnavigate the world in a couple hours, out of the reach of conventional air defenses. China has several programs researching hypersonic combined cycle engines, which consist of a turbofan stage for subsonic/low supersonic flight, and a ramjet stage for the transition from supersonic to hypersonic flight.

The most promising program is Beijing Power Machinery Research Institute's turbo-aided rocket-augmented ram/scramjet combined cycle (a mouthful often abbreviated to TRRE; Turbo-aided Rocket-augmented Ram/Scramjet Engine), which uses integrated liquid-fueled rockets to boost the performance of the turbine and ramjet stages, thus making a safer and smoother transition from supersonic to hypersonic flight of Mach 10. With key components like the engine inlet, cooling, and combustion already developed, ground tests of the system are beginning later this year. The reported plan is for a full-scale TRRE testbed to begin flights by 2025, with a 2030 test flight.

Quotes from https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/china-to-test-next-generation-hypersonic-engine.489947/#post-9449855

 

[Deino]

Haha, what about WS-15? It becomes the code name for Chinese 5th generation engine for spaceplane also.

A WS-15 or derivative is also going to be tested in first free jet test of the China-developed prototype combined-cycle hypersonic engine later this year. If sucessful, it will lead to the first demonstration flight of a full-scale propulsion system by 2025.

...

But then WS-15 would not be a single powerplant as the WS-10 or the EJ-200, M.88 or F119, but a "project" to develop certain propulsion technologies with the higher aim to develop a high-thrust powerplant for fighters and a miniaturized version for medium weight types, a high-bypass turbofans for civil airliner, this exotic combined-cycle hypersonic engine and maybe even a STOVL-version. But shouldn't this then have a project-designation similar to the Project 718 (aka J-20), Project 998 (for the KJ-2000) than a simple "WoShan" = Turbofan-number ??

Deino

 

[shjliu]

Thanks a lot and IMO it's time to stop each and every off-topic discussion. All arguments are said and as i noted a few pages before right after @Shotgunner51's post to calm down. We all need to have some self reflections and self-refrain to put the focuses back on things regarding the J-20 itself.

Just remind: an argument is an argument, nothing more and as such an opinion regardless how stupid You think it is. As such I will refrain from any headbanging or blablabala-Smiliesy in the same way I expect this from others.

These are the rules. No name, calling, no insult, no personnel bashing. Arguments is what counts.
And if I stick to my opinion that engine is (I won't refrain again), it is an opinion in the same way others think it is already a 24t of thrust delivering WS-15. Period! No need to be offended, no need to report such posts and even less no need for any insults. No-one gets a"time-out" or a warning for a different opinion but for name-calling You get.

If we all apply to these friendly coexistence this topic can indeed put the focuses back on things regarding the J-20 itself.

Deino

I think members here are asking you, how did you reach your "opinion" about the J-20's engine? did you have insider news? or you have read some paper saying so? if you do, please share the link!

As for other member mentioned J-20 already equipped with WS-15, here is some prove of that, please open the link below.

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/china/2017-05-26/doc-ifyfqqyh8509588.shtml

oh, I forgot, you may need some translation to understand the Chinese article.

 

[Deino]

Thanks for the link but again since this piece of report about a report was already quoted so often. This link You potsed surely mocks against the "Russian-engine-theory fans" and hints to the WS-15, but as far as I understand this text and as far as all the friends in China translate this report:

No single word in that TV-report mentions the specific engine type used on the J-20:

- All this report says quite mysteriously, the "J-20 uses a locally manufactured engine" and it merely mentioned Liming factory.
- no single word mentions WS-10B or even WS-15 in clear fashion??

I know You and others will claim again that's the way things get leaked in China, more by telling and reading between the lines than in clear words, but as long no official strictly confirms "the WS-15 is operational on all current J-20s" so long will I wait.

Concerning Your other question: If You look and search out in the last 562 pages You will find the answer I explained already so often. If this is not enough for You then it's fine ... for me the other proves in return are not quite clear enough.

So let's agree to disagree !

Deino

 

[帅的一匹]

This is a open forum, everyone is welcomed to deliver their opinions. No one is held responsibility for what he give, this is a virtual world. I believe that China is able to make WS15 a very successful engine. @gambit some members miss you....since the info about WS15 is highly classified, we can't make clear analysis about it.

@Deino I think China is using WS10X on J20 now. We shall believe vice Marhsal Yingzhuo, he is the insider of PLA navy. If I was wrong, I will buy you a cup of beer in the future.

 

[Deino]

This is a open forum, everyone is welcomed to deliver their opinions. No one is held responsibility for what he give, this is a virtual world. I believe that China is able to make WS15 a very successful engine. @gambit some members miss you....since the info about WS15 is highly classified, we can't make clear analysis about it.

@Deino I think China is using WS10X on J20 now. We shall believe vice Marhsal Yingzhuo, he is the insider of PLA navy. If I was wrong, I will buy you a cup of beer in the future.

To admit I would do the same for You regardless who's right or wrong and it would be an honor to meet You same day. Thanks my friend.

Deino

 

[帅的一匹]

To admit I would do the same for You regardless who's right or wrong and it would be an honor to meet You same day. Thanks my friend.

Deino

I've been dealing with Germen since the start of my business career, I know Germen very well. Earnest and discreet! Unless someone provide you a direct evidence that J20 is using WS15. You won't believe it, same consistent with my German colleague.

Let's agree to disagree, it makes more fun.

To be honest, I don't believe J20 fit WS15 right now either.

It's a long way to go before WS15 get mass production approval.

 

[Deino]

A true and honest word. ... but now I need to go back to work !

 

[帅的一匹]

Three to five years, or we won't induct Su35.

J20 now is testing by the airforce to enact operational manual, at least 3 years to five years before its fully mature. I don't feel surprise if some of the prototype is testing with WS15 now, for example it can fit one WS10x and another WS15 at simultaneously for test. Everything is possible.

Both WS10 variants and J10 series are the hero for China aviation industry, will be remembered forever.

Look, two different engine.

I believe the left one is a modified AL31F and the right one is WS10X.

 

[Tiqiu]

But then WS-15 would not be a single powerplant as the WS-10 or the EJ-200, M.88 or F119, but a "project" to develop certain propulsion technologies with the higher aim to develop a high-thrust powerplant for fighters and a miniaturized version for medium weight types, a high-bypass turbofans for civil airliner, this exotic combined-cycle hypersonic engine and maybe even a STOVL-version. But shouldn't this then have a project-designation similar to the Project 718 (aka J-20), Project 998 (for the KJ-2000) than a simple "WoShan" = Turbofan-number ??

Deino

Maybe there will be a unified code name from now on under the Aero Engine Corporation of China (AECC) which was formed last year. Before, there were more than 20 engine companies, many instituetes and aeroengine-repairing factories competing with each other for their own interest. As they were used to be answering to different authorities structually, to survive they had to compete to get aero engine projects and became less cooperative to each other. Perhaps that is why we see many engines all can be called/related to "WS-15" from different companies.

I chose to comment this time, because I constantly see members here acting in quite a hostile fashion towards people such as @Deino and @gambit

But is it OK to you for this "American" constantly calling "your internet chinese"?