Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Deino]

But why deino said that China can't install WS series of engine and insisting this indeginous engine is AL-31 M2

You missed the point: I never said "China can't install WS". All I said is "based on my information and the assessment of other arguments I still come to the conclusion, that IMO the most likely option is still an AL-31FN (M2) based design".

That's a difference and I don't see why this is trolling as You reported exactly such posts ?? It's my opinion based on my considerations in the same way You and @Asok come to other conclusions. The difference is however the way You present them and personally insult another opinion. If You feel offended or even insulted by the fact alone that I have a different opinion You should at least never become a teacher. If I would take every mistake made by any pupil an insult like You guys deem my "opinion" ... uuiuiuiuiui, it won't be good.

@Asok @pakistanipower

Just a kind reminder to both of You !

@Shotgunner51's call was not only a beg but an open moderator's call to calm down. It was kindly said but in no way open for any further discussion, his words are quite clear for anyone who can read and is willing and able to understand:

"... stop with their name-calling, personal attacks against nationality or profession (and these include certain smileys that's sometimes perceived as provocation, use some manner please). I suggest everyone only argue on technical matters, if anything is not confirmed it is admitted as such (until the true facts are confirmed, with data from credible sources). Personal opinions are allowed, personal analysis/investigations are encouraged (putting bits and pieces together, and reach one's own conclusion or assumption)."

Not sure what You both did not understand? As such this is the last warning - now from me in the role as a moderator - STOP exactly these things mentioned above or face the consequences.

But is @Deino has a better sources than our Chinese friends, and I am not insulting deino but just asking him to clear his opinion

Thanks for raising this point, which is true - but for all here. The point is and here I'm not sure what's Your or Mr. Asok's academic background not only the availability of "sources" but also their weighting against each other if they are contradicting is important. It's the assessment of what source is more reliable than another and drawing conclusions. To admit after two academic diplomas in Chemistry and Education I think to tell I'm illiterate while at the same time posting calculations a true aeronautical engineer is laughing an *** is pathetic and arrogant. One can come to other conclusions due to the points I mentioned above (aka the weighting of different sources)

I can only say that I have "sources" in China, in Russia and not only in other foreign-language forums. I'm in discussion with native Chinese, with guys who have a close relationship to the Aerospace Industry and even the military. All these guys are helpful, honest, respectful and patient. They listen to my concerns and explain. I'm very thankful. Anyway, Yes I make mistakes, the language barrier is huge - but not surmountable if You have the correct contacts and assistance in translation and "reading between the lines" - and surely the cultural differences is another issue. But that does not mean automatically each and every conclusion is wrong. Even more in return picking only the arguments You like without being even willing to look at a certain contra-argument is in no way academic, literate or logical ... but that has anyone to decide for his own.

 

[Shotgunner51]

Hi posters, I don't participate in technical discussion here, I will just mod.
Stay on topic, discuss on the subject and post freely as you wish, but not on any poster's personal background.

 

[grey boy 2]

I don't know what my Chinese brothers will do, as for me, since they're not interesting in a fair game, as they're also the authority in Chinese military matters, from now on, if i will ever post again, it will be pictures with exactly the Chinese content along with it, feel free to delete it or ban me see if i care
I'm sure @Deino and @Shotgunner51 could made a perfect team to further enhance Chinese defense section with their expertise without interference from us ignorant fanboys

 

[Deino]

If most of Chinese senior members on PDF saying that indigenous engine install on J-20 doesn't mean that home made AL-31M2 is called "indigenous engine" its called "reversed engineered" engine because he believe his eye cathcing assessment

Good point for starting a discussion: In general I agree with You, but scientific "facts" are in no way dependent on a democratic vote or "the majority of supporters". Just think about Galileo Galilei and his critics heliocentrism. That does not mean I'm correct, but the number of supporters of a certain opinion barely means it has to be correct.

 

[Shotgunner51]

I don't know what my Chinese brothers will do, as for me, since they're not interesting in a fair game, as they're also the authority in Chinese military matters, from now on, if i will ever post again, it will be pictures with exactly the Chinese content along with it, feel free to delete it or ban me see if i care
I'm sure @Deino and @Shotgunner51 could made a perfect team to further enhance Chinese defense section with their expertise without interference from us ignorant fanboys

Relax bro, just post any opinion on the subject of J20 or WS or the likes. Let's not post about fellow poster or mod. Not a single technical post will be deleted no matter it's for or against WS-15, no one will be banned for doing so.

Posting against an opposing opinion, not the poster himself, is a career skill that I find critical to survival in workplace too. Use PDF as a practice room!

 

[Deino]

I don't know what my Chinese brothers will do, as for me, since they're not interesting in a fair game, as they're also the authority in Chinese military matters, from now on, if i will ever post again, it will be pictures with exactly the Chinese content along with it, feel free to delete it or ban me see if i care
I'm sure @Deino and @Shotgunner51 could made a perfect team to further enhance Chinese defense section with their expertise without interference from us ignorant fanboys

No fear, I will never ban anyone for a different opinion nor will I delete any post. By the way I deem You not ignorant. You simply have a different opinion based on Your assessment and that's fine as long as it is presented in a civilised manner.
But You mention one important point: being an "authority in Chinese military matters" does not give You any right to be "not interesting in a fair game".

 

[grey boy 2]

Relax bro, just post any opinion on the subject of J20 or WS or the likes. Let's not post about fellow poster or mod.

Please don;t turn a blind eyes on how many times this rude Deino had insulted us for posting things he thought is stupid just because he doesn't believed in it, example will be the hybrid engine Beast was suggesting, he threatening to ban him, he's just playing his fake Mr nice card which we all know how phony he can get
Never mind @Shotgunner51 , i speak nothing but the truth, whatever happen i don't care period

No fear, I will never ban anyone for a different opinion nor will I delete any post. By the way I deem You not ignorant. You simply have a different opinion based on Your assessment and that's fine as long as it is presented in a civilised manner.
But You mention one important point: being an "authority in Chinese military matters" does not give You any right to be "not interesting in a fair game".

I fear of you banning me? i'm rude to you or its the other way around ha? you must be out of your mind

 

[Ultima Thule]

You missed the point: I never said "China can't install WS". All I said is "based on my information and the assessment of other arguments I still come to the conclusion, that IMO the most likely option is still an AL-31FN (M2) based design".

What information and assessment you have on this subject kindly share us, if they make AL-31M2 they can't call it "indigenous engine" but "reversed engine" or called it a copy of AL-31M2

Thanks for raising this point, which is true - but for all here. The point is and here I'm not sure what's Your or Mr. Asok's academic background not only the availability of "sources" but also their weighting against each other if they are contradicting is important. It's the assessment of what source is more reliable than another and drawing conclusions. To admit after two academic diplomas in Chemistry and Education I think to tell I'm illiterate while at the same time posting calculations a true aeronautical engineer is laughing an *** is pathetic and arrogant. One can come to other conclusions due to the points I mentioned above (aka the weighting of different sources)

I can only say that I have "sources" in China, in Russia and not only in other foreign-language forums. I'm in discussion with native Chinese, with guys who have a close relationship to the Aerospace Industry and even the military. All these guys are helpful, honest, respectful and patient. They listen to my concerns and explain. I'm very thankful. Anyway, Yes I make mistakes, the language barrier is huge - but not surmountable if You have the correct contacts and assistance in translation and "reading between the lines" - and surely the cultural differences is another issue. But that does not mean automatically each and every conclusion is wrong. Even more in return picking only the arguments You like without being even willing to look at a certain contra-argument is in no way academic, literate or logical ... but that has anyone to decide for his own.

i am not calling @Asok or me as a expert on Chinese Military but almost every other Chinese senior members on PDF like @cirr, @ChineseTiger1986, @Beast, @wanglaokan , others can clearly stated that this engine is not related to AL-31M2 and maybe its a imporved version of WS-10 can i ask you to on what reason do you think its a AL-31M2 please kindly share us

 

[Han Patriot]

Relax bro, just post any opinion on the subject of J20 or WS or the likes. Let's not post about fellow poster or mod. Not a single technical post will be deleted no matter it's for or against WS-15, no one will be banned for doing so.

Posting against an opposing opinion, not the poster himself, is a career skill that I find critical to survival in workplace too. Use PDF as a practice room!

This I gotta agree. Chinese posters need to learn this skill, don't be emotional, go against the subject matter not the person. Even in work place, emails can kill, you can shoot a person without getting angry. It depends on you English skills, and some soft sarcasm.

 

[samsara]

The Requirements for a good competent intelligence specialists are three fold.

1.) He must have good language skills of that target country.
2.) He must be educated in the field that he is trying to decipher.
3.) He must willing to work for the "modest" salary of being an intelligence analyst, instead of the field he was educated, which often pays a lot more than a government intelligence agency salary.

So, for US to get good intelligence on Chinese aeronautical development, those analysts must able to read and write Chinese, must have a degree or substantial background in aeronautical, and willing to get pay $60k-80k a year.

Unfortunately, the first part of hiring a Chinese speaker to work in CIA is a big problem. This candidate must pass a through security ground check. That he has no family connections in China, that he has no regular contacts with Chinese nationals, that he can not make undeclared private trips to China. . .etc.

This is practically eliminated a native Chinese speaker.

And what you got is someone who is born in the US, with no family in China and probably barely know any Chinese language.

As for a aeronautical engineer, $60-$80k per year is the starting salary for a new grad.

So who with a aeronautical degree and can speaks and write Chinese, wants to work in CIA, for $60-80k per year?

What's that mean?

It means CIA is getting B.S. from "journalists" who don't know Chinese, who don't know aeronautics as intelligences.

Those "journalists/analysts" can't read Chinese, and they can't read technical papers, even in English.

The secret is there are vast amount of aeronautics technical papers, in Chinese language, on the Internet, for anyone to read.

The Chinese state/military secrets, are open to anyone, who wants to learn them.

Asok, with all respects it's just your assumption. Increase the pays to 150k-200k pa then thing will be quite different. Some names immediately come into my mind, Gordon Chang; Dean Cheng and of course many others behind the veils.

Those in the West (the alphabet agencies, Pentagon, Naval War College, myriad of Think tanks etc) that are concerning with these matters may grasp, only what they tell publicly are quite different. They have their own story line agendas to convey to the public, power image to preserve, interests to push forward, etc etc... I don't want to underestimate their financial resources.

 

[Beast]

You missed the point: I never said "China can't install WS". All I said is "based on my information and the assessment of other arguments I still come to the conclusion, that IMO the most likely option is still an AL-31FN (M2) based design".

That's a difference and I don't see why this is trolling as You reported exactly such posts ?? It's my opinion based on my considerations in the same way You and @Asok come to other conclusions. The difference is however the way You present them and personally insult another opinion. If You feel offended or even insulted by the fact alone that I have a different opinion You should at least never become a teacher. If I would take every mistake made by any pupil an insult like You guys deem my "opinion" ... uuiuiuiuiui, it won't be good.

@Asok @pakistanipower

Just a kind reminder to both of You !

@Shotgunner51's call was not only a beg but an open moderator's call to calm down. It was kindly said but in no way open for any further discussion, his words are quite clear for anyone who can read and is willing and able to understand:

"... stop with their name-calling, personal attacks against nationality or profession (and these include certain smileys that's sometimes perceived as provocation, use some manner please). I suggest everyone only argue on technical matters, if anything is not confirmed it is admitted as such (until the true facts are confirmed, with data from credible sources). Personal opinions are allowed, personal analysis/investigations are encouraged (putting bits and pieces together, and reach one's own conclusion or assumption)."

Not sure what You both did not understand? As such this is the last warning - now from me in the role as a moderator - STOP exactly these things mentioned above or face the consequences.





Thanks for raising this point, which is true - but for all here. The point is and here I'm not sure what's Your or Mr. Asok's academic background not only the availability of "sources" but also their weighting against each other if they are contradicting is important. It's the assessment of what source is more reliable than another and drawing conclusions. To admit after two academic diplomas in Chemistry and Education I think to tell I'm illiterate while at the same time posting calculations a true aeronautical engineer is laughing an *** is pathetic and arrogant. One can come to other conclusions due to the points I mentioned above (aka the weighting of different sources)

I can only say that I have "sources" in China, in Russia and not only in other foreign-language forums. I'm in discussion with native Chinese, with guys who have a close relationship to the Aerospace Industry and even the military. All these guys are helpful, honest, respectful and patient. They listen to my concerns and explain. I'm very thankful. Anyway, Yes I make mistakes, the language barrier is huge - but not surmountable if You have the correct contacts and assistance in translation and "reading between the lines" - and surely the cultural differences is another issue. But that does not mean automatically each and every conclusion is wrong. Even more in return picking only the arguments You like without being even willing to look at a certain contra-argument is in no way academic, literate or logical ... but that has anyone to decide for his own.

Your so called Chinese friend is not going to translate every single Chinese words for you. They just trying to give you a rough idea but maybe missing some small detail part which can result in failing to fully understand the story. Chinese language is a highly complex language. A single words of minor content can change the whole message it trying to convey.

They do not have the same analysis as you do when trying to convey the translated message. For example, they may try to convey what they want you to know and not exactly what the sentence or text stated.

 

[l0ngl0ng]

Please don;t turn a blind eyes on how many times this rude Deino had insulted us for posting things he thought is stupid just because he doesn't believed in it, example will be the hybrid engine Beast was suggesting, he threatening to ban him, he's just playing his fake Mr nice card which we all know how phony he can get
Never mind @Shotgunner51 , i speak nothing but the truth, whatever happen i don't care period

I fear of you banning me? i'm rude to you or its the other way around ha? you must be out of your mind

Making you angry are fishing baits, good and free.

 

[sinait]

Please don;t turn a blind eyes on how many times this rude Deino had insulted us for posting things he thought is stupid just because he doesn't believed in it, example will be the hybrid engine Beast was suggesting, he threatening to ban him, he's just playing his fake Mr nice card which we all know how phony he can get
Never mind @Shotgunner51 , i speak nothing but the truth, whatever happen i don't care period
I fear of you banning me? i'm rude to you or its the other way around ha? you must be out of your mind

What to do. He decided as a mod that he is not rude. There is a reason why judges must recuse themselves when there is a conflict of interest, and referees only officiate and don't play in a soccer match.
No fun engaging someone who keeps threatening to ban anyone who, in his not necessarily unbiased opinion, is rude to him. Or else why its such a big issue on who gets to select the US Supreme Court judge if all judges are able to be fair and not biased.

Regards Chinese translation, there is not a direct correlation between the languages and nuances may get lost in the translation. Many times it is just not possible to express what the original Chinese article intents.
Expressing ourselves clearly and concisely, is not easy, and more so when we have to do that on a language that is not easy to translate from.
.

 

[Asoka]

Your so called Chinese friend is not going to translate every single Chinese words for you. They just trying to give you a rough idea but maybe missing some small detail part which can result in failing to fully understand the story. Chinese language is a highly complex language. A single words of minor content can change the whole message it trying to convey.

They do not have the same analysis as you do when trying to convey the translated message. For example, they may try to convey what they want you to know and not exactly what the sentence or text stated.

Mr. Deino is a nice guy?

That's not how I see it or remember how he treats other people.

He has threaten to ban me and delete all my posts in three separate occasions, in the past year, when I post findings that is contrary to his groundless speculation that J-20 is flying with the Russian made the phantom AL-31-FN-M2 engine.

And he has done the same thing to other members, who contradicted him.

His has bet his position as Moderator, on the J-20 engine identity. This has made it clear that he is not neutral on this issue, but has a strong bias toward his groundless opinion.

He is not fit to be a Moderator in this forum, at least not in this J-20 thread.

 

[Asoka]

Asok, with all respects it's just your assumption. Increase the pays to 150k-200k pa then thing will be quite different. Some names immediately come into my mind, Gordon Chang; Dean Cheng and of course many others behind the veils.

Those in the West (the alphabet agencies, Pentagon, Naval War College, myriad of Think tanks etc) that are concerning with these matters may grasp, only what they tell publicly are quite different. They have their own story line agendas to convey to the public, power image to preserve, interests to push forward, etc etc... I don't want to underestimate their financial resources.

"Asok, with all respects it's just your assumption. Increase the pays to 150k-200k pa then thing will be quite different. Some names immediately come into my mind, Gordon Chang; Dean Cheng and of course many others behind the veils."

You really don't know what you are talking about here. I have lived and worked in Washington DC, since 1999. I have worked in a Defense Contractor firm, which makes Command Control Center, and others equipments for Pentagon.

I have a good idea of how candidates are screened for a Top Secret Clearance. It's hellish for a foreign born individual, especially for a China born person.

The only growth industry in Washington DC is the Homeland Security/CIA/NSA, which added the equivalent of 3 Pentagon size of office space and hired tens of thousands of employees and contractors since 2011.

If you increase the Intelligence Analyst's salary from $60k-$80k to $150k-$200k, you must do the same for the rest of the hundreds of thousands of other employees and contractors.

And that still won't get you the native Chinese Speakers with specialized domain knowledge to work for Pentagon/CIA/NSA, unless you lower the ridiculously strict security clearance background checks, which takes 2-5 years for an individual to past. He must fill in a mountain of paper works, disclose all his personal informations, history, all his family connections in China, where he lived since he was born, and past an annual lie detector test.

Who wants to do that, if he can work somewhere, for the same money?