Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Deino]

Are you implying entering service version is very far from the combat operation version or simply trying to hint PLA has no standard and its acceptance varies alot unlike super professional western counterpart? Please back your statement if not, its simply your lack of contempt assessment of Chinese and PLA and just your very personal verdict.

Just fitting nicely to this discussion is a comparison to the service introduction of the J-10:

The initial J-10As "entered service" with the PLAAF officialyl at the end of 2003 but they were also officially only really considered to be "IOC" by 2006. A comprehensive summary on the typical PLAAF procedures can be found in a post by "kongjun49" at the CDF:

Based on my understanding of the PLAAF/Naval Aviation, IOC is not an actual term for about two years after a unit receives the first new type of airframe. The term IOC actually is used the first day that an aircraft sits strip alert and can scramble to intercept an foreign aircraft or fly over territory that includes an attack scenario.

The way it normally works is that a unit that receives the first airframe of a new type aircraft receives enough aircraft from the production line, which may take up to a year after the first one comes off the production line. For example, the first batch of fighter/attack aircraft would include 10 airframes. They are assigned as a group to a flight group (battalion leader-level organization). Of the 10 airframes, two of them rotate to the maintenance facility at a time, while the other 8 make up two company-level flight squadrons.

The pilots of the new aircraft have to do multiple things, including developing tactics/combat methods for the new airframe, adhering to the Outline of Military Training and Evaluation (OMTE), building a corps of pilots who move up their career ladder from 3rd to 2nd to 1st to special grade pilots, which includes serving as a wingman, flight lead, training pilot, and flight controller in the tower, as well as flying in 4 weather conditions (e.g., day and night IFR and VFR, not "weather" related, such as snow, sleet, rain, clouds). etc.

The whole process before they sit strip alert takes about 2 years.

The next unit to receive the same airframe may take less time, because they send pilots to the first unit to observe. They don't have to develop tactics/combat methods, because they only have to implement ones that have already been created and incorporated into the OMTE. This doesn't mean, however, that it only takes a few months. It probably takes at least a year for the unit to become IOC.

http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=7379.msg294834#msg294834

i love these stubborn Western 'expert China military watchers'

As long as they are closer to the facts that the dreamers ...

Anyway, I'm sure that with all these over-interpretations like "indigenous engine = fully operational WS-15", "entered service = ready for all combat missions aka FOC" the final word has long not spoken. So time will tell.

BY the way, since this thread is almost a J-20-related discussion I merge it with the regular J-20-thread.

All the best,
Deino

 

[Deino]

According to the serial number of the plane- it would be deployed somewhere in the northwest of the country.

Most likely a the FTTC at Dingxin ...

 

[Asoka]

That is why supercomputer is a major national project and its contribution is tremendous in all scientific area, not some chest thumping number breaking only.

You are right.

A massive Supercomputer Farm or center is a National Strategic Asset or Force multiplier in all Scientific Researches. The US and the West has long dominated this field, since the invention of Computers, back in the early 1940's.

Now China has caught up and taken the lead.

 

[Deino]

You are right.

A massive Supercomputer Farm or center is a National Strategic Asset or Force multiplier in all Scientific Researches. The US and the West has long dominated this field, since the invention of Computers, back in the early 1940's.

Now China has caught up and taken the lead.

Yes for sure ... esp. since a Supercomputer can replace everything, decades of experience, material research?? ... everything just "CLICK" and the supercomputer builds a ready-made +210 kN strong mega-engine - at best 3D-printed - that otherwise no one else can build in the world.

Do you really believe what you write there?

 

[samsara]

Everyone better be patient, unless the related authority decides to divulge the relevant info, the ROW can only keep on guessing... one's words against the other's ones... at the end one's faith comes into play... until the authority decides to remove the veils. The conclusive info will just be elusive. One should also ask, what are the pros and cons, incentives and disincentives of revealing certain kind of sensitive information... from their POV! Good luck guessing

 

[Asoka]

Everyone better be patient, unless the related authority decides to divulge the relevant info, the ROW can only keep on guessing... one's words against the other's ones... at the end one's faith comes into play... until the authority decides to remove the veils. The conclusive info will just be elusive. One should also ask, what are the pros and cons, incentives and disincentives of revealing certain kind of sensitive information... from their POV! Good luck guessing

Supercomputer can't replace decades of any experiences, with the click of the mouse, but it does can speed up the acquisition of that "decades of experience" in matter of years, through massive simulations and calculations, inside those magic boxes. And with a lot less pain and effort.

Computer power doubles every 18 months.

The fastest Supercomputer in year 2000, was US Laurence Laboratory's ASCI White, with Rpeak of 12,288.0 Gflops.

Now, 16 years later, it's China's Sunway TaihuLight with Rpeak of 93.01 PFLOPS, or 93,000,000 Gflops.

It's an exponential total increase of 7568 times, in 16 years.

In the coming months, China will roll out world's first Exabyte scale Supercomputer, the Tianhe-3 ,capable of 1000 Petabytes, or 10 times faster than the current of the Current world champion the Sunway TaihuLight, or 75,680 times faster the 2000 champion, the ASCI White.

The fools can keep their heads in the sands. In the end, no one can make them see, unless they decide to pull their heads out and look.

 

[Beast]

Supercomputer can't replace decades of any experiences, with the click of the mouse, but it does can speed up the acquisition of that "decades of experience" in matter of years, through massive simulations and calculations, inside those magic boxes. And with a lot less pain and effort.

Computer power doubles every 18 months.

The fastest Supercomputer in year 2000, was US Laurence Laboratory's ASCI White, with Rpeak of 12,288.0 Gflops.

Now, 16 years later, it's China's Sunway TaihuLight with Rpeak of 93.01 PFLOPS, or 93,000,000 Gflops.

It's an exponential total increase of 7568 times, in 16 years.

In the coming months, China will roll out world's first Exabyte scale Supercomputer, the Tianhe-3 ,capable of 1000 Petabytes, or 10 times faster than the current of the Current world champion the Sunway TaihuLight, or 75,680 times faster the 2000 champion, the ASCI White.

The fools can keep their heads in the sands. In the end, no one can make them see, unless they decide to pull their heads out and look.

Precisely, the fools can keep twist the fact and keep on denying. Modern Supercomputer allows quite accurate depiction of a aircraft design and feasible of working specification based on its simulation so that designer most likely will have a 80-90% working aircraft design long before even its make into a prototype and fly. The more powerful the supercomputer, the more complicated and demanding of the simulation of the design can be carry out.

Past the olden days where aircraft designer will know certain aircraft design deficiency only when prototype flies.
Y-20 is a fantastic example where China previous do not have such experience in designing such big plane but able to accomplish a working and big operational plane in such short time. We have not seen any structural changes of Y- throughout its testing phase to operation. More or less show the design is very successful in the very first place.

 

[Asoka]

Precisely, the fools can keep twist the fact and keep on denying. Modern Supercomputer allows quite accurate depiction of a aircraft design and feasible of working specification based on its simulation so that designer most likely will have a 80-90% working aircraft design long before even its make into a prototype and fly. The more powerful the supercomputer, the more complicated and demanding of the simulation of the design can be carry out.

Past the olden days where aircraft designer will know certain aircraft design deficiency only when prototype flies.
Y-20 is a fantastic example where China previous do not have such experience in designing such big plane but able to accomplish a working and big operational plane in such short time. We have not seen any structural changes of Y- throughout its testing phase to operation. More or less show the design is very successful in the very first place.

The Boeing 767 Dreamliner was one of the first large aircraft entirely, design inside a Supercomputer, not one paper blueprint was used. Everything was designed, visualized and simulated inside the Computer. The Designer, Engineers, Machinists, and Mechanics, can see precisely, what every parts was look like, and how they work together, before any parts was built.

The saving of labors and time was enormous.

In fact, the simulation was so precise, the final weight of the simulated plane differs with the real plane by only 8 lbs.

The only "argument", left with those fools, is to deny everything.

 

[JSCh]

Stealth fighter soon powered by local engines
By ZHAO LEI | China Daily | Updated: 2017-03-13 03:51

A domestically developed engine will soon power the nation's latest stealth fighter jet, according to a senior scientist working for Aero Engine Corp of China.

"It will not take a long time for our fifth-generation combat plane to have China-made engines," said Chen Xiangbao, vice-president of the AECC Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials. Chen, also a member of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, was referring to the J-20 stealth fighter.

"The engine's development is proceeding well. We also have begun to design a next-generation aviation engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio that is much higher than that of current types," he said. Thrust-to-weight ratio is considered the top indicator of an aviation engine's capability.

Chen, who is a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference National Committee, spoke to China Daily on the sidelines of the political advisory body's annual session.

The People's Liberation Army Air Force recently confirmed, without elaborating, that the J-20 has been put into active service. Aviation industry observers said the plane is still equipped with Russian-made engines due to the lack of a suitable domestically developed engine.

Chen said Chinese scientists and engineers are striving to catch up to the world's top players in terms of research and development into cutting-edge aviation engines, but the country still has a long way to go before it can develop and produce world-class engines, Chen said.

"For instance, we are able to develop the two most important components in an advanced engine — the single crystal superalloy turbine blades and powder metallurgy superalloy turbine disks — but in mass production, the products' quality is not very satisfactory," he said. It is a matter of time and persistence to make reliable engines, he said.

"The road to success is filled with setbacks and failures. Each of the world's engine powers has walked this road," Chen added.

Yin Zeyong, head of AECC's science and technology commission, previously said that a good engine is the result of not only good design but also time-consuming experiments and tests.

Despite China's tremendous achievements in science, technology and manufacturing industries over the past several decades, aircraft engine-making remains one of the few fields in which the country still lags behind top players like the United States and Russia. Because of the sophistication of advanced aircraft engines, such as the afterburning turbofan engine, which drives the US Lockheed Martin F-22 and Russia's Sukhoi Su-35, only the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council have the technical wherewithal to develop and produce them.

Tang Changhong, chief designer of China's Y-20 strategic transport plane and a member of the CPPCC National Committee, told West China City Daily that the Y-20 will be equipped with indigenously developed engines around 2018 or 2019.

 

[grey boy 2]

 

[Beast]

Stealth fighter soon powered by local engines
By ZHAO LEI | China Daily | Updated: 2017-03-13 03:51

A domestically developed engine will soon power the nation's latest stealth fighter jet, according to a senior scientist working for Aero Engine Corp of China.

"It will not take a long time for our fifth-generation combat plane to have China-made engines," said Chen Xiangbao, vice-president of the AECC Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials. Chen, also a member of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, was referring to the J-20 stealth fighter.

"The engine's development is proceeding well. We also have begun to design a next-generation aviation engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio that is much higher than that of current types," he said. Thrust-to-weight ratio is considered the top indicator of an aviation engine's capability.

Chen, who is a member of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference National Committee, spoke to China Daily on the sidelines of the political advisory body's annual session.

The People's Liberation Army Air Force recently confirmed, without elaborating, that the J-20 has been put into active service. Aviation industry observers said the plane is still equipped with Russian-made engines due to the lack of a suitable domestically developed engine.

Chen said Chinese scientists and engineers are striving to catch up to the world's top players in terms of research and development into cutting-edge aviation engines, but the country still has a long way to go before it can develop and produce world-class engines, Chen said.

"For instance, we are able to develop the two most important components in an advanced engine — the single crystal superalloy turbine blades and powder metallurgy superalloy turbine disks — but in mass production, the products' quality is not very satisfactory," he said. It is a matter of time and persistence to make reliable engines, he said.

"The road to success is filled with setbacks and failures. Each of the world's engine powers has walked this road," Chen added.

Yin Zeyong, head of AECC's science and technology commission, previously said that a good engine is the result of not only good design but also time-consuming experiments and tests.

Despite China's tremendous achievements in science, technology and manufacturing industries over the past several decades, aircraft engine-making remains one of the few fields in which the country still lags behind top players like the United States and Russia. Because of the sophistication of advanced aircraft engines, such as the afterburning turbofan engine, which drives the US Lockheed Martin F-22 and Russia's Sukhoi Su-35, only the five permanent members of the United Nations Security Council have the technical wherewithal to develop and produce them.

Tang Changhong, chief designer of China's Y-20 strategic transport plane and a member of the CPPCC National Committee, told West China City Daily that the Y-20 will be equipped with indigenously developed engines around 2018 or 2019.

Once again. This news more or less cement my view that J-20 ,J-10B and J-15 uses a hybrid of WS-10 and AL-31F domestic made engines with much higher thrust to power our fighter jets. Do not expect an official statement telling the whole world China is RE Russian AL-31F by xinhui news or other official Chinese news agency.

This way it could fasten the process of putting critical plane into operation while not depending on unreliable Russian to power our fleet. Depending on Russian to upthrust AL-31F cannot be happen as Russian lack of resources to undertake some project with limted funds, facilities and scientist. Just like how they failed us on Mars Mission, the delivery of 36 IL-76 transport plane which forces us to undergo domestic Y-20 project.

Most importantly, the production is 100% controlled by the Chinese which we can produced as many engines and planes according to our need. It will speed up our induction before more powerful design like WS-20 and WS-15 are commissioned to fulfill more demanding need of our future fighter jet.

There is a reason why Yin zhuo a politburo member and former rear admiral of PLAN slipped his tongue and mention the domestic engine currently used on J-20 during the Zhuhai airshow 2016.

Its something like the WS-18 project which is for our H-6K and Y-20 needs. A Russian design but with uprated thrust of 8% and long turbine blade lifespan. Most importantly, its 100 percent made in China with no restriction in production.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2015/01/ws-18-new-type-of-aircraft-engine.html#.WMYqPm-GPIU

 

[Deino]

@Asok, pardon, but will this finally lead You back to reality !?

Stealth fighter soon powered by local engines
By ZHAO LEI | China Daily | Updated: 2017-03-13 03:51

A domestically developed engine will soon power the nation's latest stealth fighter jet, according to a senior scientist working for Aero Engine Corp of China.

"It will not take a long time for our fifth-generation combat plane to have China-made engines," said Chen Xiangbao, vice-president of the AECC Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials. Chen, also a member of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, was referring to the J-20 stealth fighter.
....

 

[Deino]

...
Its something like the WS-18 project which is for our H-6K and Y-20 needs. A Russian design but with uprated thrust of 8% and long turbine blade lifespan. Most importantly, its 100 percent made in China with no restriction in production.

http://errymath.blogspot.com/2015/01/ws-18-new-type-of-aircraft-engine.html#.WMYqPm-GPIU

The issue is simply again similar to the WS-15 ... the WS-18 too is still not operational and all Y-20s so far are using Russian engines, that has been confirmed by official statements more than once.

 

[Beast]

The issue is simply again similar to the WS-15 ... the WS-18 too is still not operational and all Y-20s so far are using Russian engines, that has been confirmed by official statements more than once.

Which official statement? You make up yourself? WS-18 is considered a RE of D30K engine. The fact that even the project members did not written WS-18 on the banner in the photo more or less comfirm its a hush hush, matter.

You expect Xinhua news or official Chinese new agency to splash over the news about RE of D30K engines of WS-18. Or official news about Y-20 using WS-18?

 

[Deino]

Which official statement? You make up yourself? WS-18 is considered a RE of D30K engine. The fact that even the project members did not written WS-18 on the banner in the photo more or less comfirm its a hush hush, matter.

You expect Xinhua news or official Chinese new agency to splash over the news about RE of D30K engines of WS-18. Or official news about Y-20 using WS-18?

Official news during the service introduction - and also now this latest report above - stating that now they are still using imported engines and those will be replaced in the future.

Otherwise I think it's up to You to prove that the current Y-20s are already using the WS-18.