Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[帅的一匹]

bro with due respect you are hyping too much about the capabilities of J-20 true capability of J-20 know only and only PLAAF no ones knows other than PLAAF and you know all the basic of military aviation you are the real fanboy for J-20

He is an enthusiastic supporter of J20, while I'm a big fan of FC31.

I don't know, but does J-20 really-really was prepared to be equipped with a 3D TVC engine? Because 3D TVC engine is way different to AL31 series and WS-10. 3D TVC engine has more weight, means that it will change everything. including the center of weight to the aircraft. If you replace the current engine (which supposedly to be WS-10 or AL-31) then you have modify everything, to correct the center of weight of the aircraft. That mean, J-20 will have to change her everything. Wing placement, fuselage model, etc

So I think there are two possible reality about J-20 here. Either it is not designed to have a 3D TVC engine from the beginning, or it has already has 3D TVC Engine

But I think even if J-20 is not designed to has a 3D TVC engine, it is not inferior aircraft. Look at F-22. Even with TVC Engine, it didn't give a guarantee win against an aircraft without TVC. Look at her record against European Typhoon and other older aircraft from the Europe. To defense F-22 loses, they said that it supposed to fight in BVR area, as it is the F-22 strong point. But then, what is the purpose of 3D TVC engine, if it's not to help the aircraft win a dog fight scenario?

J20 is designed to be compatible with WS15. If WS15 has 3D TVC.

 

[Brainsucker]

He is an enthusiastic supporter of J20, while I'm a big fan of FC31.

J20 is designed to be compatible with WS15. If WS15 has 3D TVC.

But why WS15 needs to be a 3D TVC? What J-20 needs is speed and range, not more maneuverable ability. It has already has delta wing structure. Too much maneuver will generate more G, which endanger the pilot.

And once agains, different weight of engine will disturb the center of gravity of the aircraft. You have to redesigned the fuselage and the wing placement. So unless WS-15 has the same weight to the AL31 or WS10 then J-20 will be looked very different in the future.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

F-14 tomcat maximum weight is
Max. takeoff weight: 74,350 lb (33,720 kg)

Projected J-20 Max. takeoff weight is
Max takeoff weight: 36,288 kg (80,001 lb) upper estimate

China currently have not Nimitz size aircraft carrier, not possible on current Chinese AC

The figure for J-20 is not correct, since J-20 has undoubtedly greater maximum takeoff than F-22 which got 38 tons.

J-20 can carry four external fuel tanks, while F-22 can only carry two.

BTW, the aircraft carrier to have J-20 will be the 100,000+ tonnes Type 003.

 

[Asoka]

But why WS15 needs to be a 3D TVC? What J-20 needs is speed and range, not more maneuverable ability. It has already has delta wing structure. Too much maneuver will generate more G, which endanger the pilot.

And once agains, different weight of engine will disturb the center of gravity of the aircraft. You have to redesigned the fuselage and the wing placement. So unless WS-15 has the same weight to the AL31 or WS10 then J-20 will be looked very different in the future.

The short answer is: J-20, version 2001, is already equipped with WS-15 right from the beginning, back in year 2011. And WS-15 is also equipped with 3D-TVC right from the beginning. IMO. So now, after 5 years of testing with WS-15 and 3D-TVC, the design of J-20 is frozen and going into LRIP.

TVC is especially useful in two situations: slow, post-stall speed, where your control surfaces are no longer effective. In High-altitude, where the air is so thin, your control surfaces are much less effective.

 

[gambit]

But I think even if J-20 is not designed to has a 3D TVC engine, it is not inferior aircraft.

Remember this the next time anyone criticizes the F-31 for not being able to supercruise -- as in 'inferior' to the J-20.

To date, there are no credible evidences that the J-20 have TVC engines. Every images presented so far have been of asymmetric nozzle openings, which are common with twin engines fighters, which gives the illusion of having TVC engines.

The real proof is on ground operations.

Prior to every takeoff, twice the pilot will do what is called 'cycling' all the major flight components, which includes the engines. The first cycling of these components is when the jet is in what we who have actual military aviation experience call 'in the chocks'. This is before taxiing to the runway. This is after the pilot is in cockpit, engine started, INS spooling up, standby compass system orienting itself, and flight control system are going thru their programmed self tests.

If the jet is equipped with TVC engines, in the chocks is where and when the pilot will cycle the TVC nozzles.

The nozzles will have their asymmetric positions THIS obvious...

https://defence.pk/threads/chengdu-...news-discussions.111471/page-515#post-9143633

This is unambiguous. No visual illusions. No aspect aberrations. Your own post showed it.

In the chocks, prior to taxi, the pilot will be assisted by at least three ground crews: the crew chief and two assistants, the crew chief will station himself in front of the jet in clear visual sight of the pilot, the assistants will one per side of the jet.

The pilot will be in wired communication with the crew chief. The crew chief will be in hand signals communication with the assistants.

Once the flight control system completed its self tests, the pilot will begin cycling the flight control surfaces to their fullest extent. Ailerons, rear horizontal stabs, and vertical stab(s). All surfaces must deflects to their FULL mechanical stops, meaning the hydraulic actuators must travels to their maximum extension and withdraw to their shortest position, taking the flight control surfaces with them. All this time, if the crew chief notices any surface that does not travel to match the other surface, troubleshooting begins. If maintenance is required, in maintenance lingo, it is called a 'red ball'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_ball

Term used by the US Air Force, typically on the flight line, to identify supply or service requests that are needed urgently to avoid mission failure, and thus given highest priority.

We do it this way and have no doubt the PLAAF does the same. The actual translated words maybe different, but whatever they are in Chinese, the intent is still the same: Get the maintenance truck with its parts bin to the jet immediately.

If the Launch truck cannot effect repair on a 'red ball' call, then it is a mission failure and the pilot is moved to the back up jet. If there is no back up jet, then the day's sortie count will be minus one.

Assume that the flight control system passed all checks. Now, if the jet is equipped with TVC engines, the pilot will first cycle the nozzles' openings, the crew chief's assistants will hand signal if there is anything wrong, then the pilot will manually cycle the nozzles' TVC movements. Just like the flight control system, the TVC nozzles must move to their FULL mechanical limits.

Assume the jet passed all checks in the chocks. Now the pilot will call to remove the wheel chocks. The crew chief will signal that removal thus: both hands into fists, thumbs up, then flip the thumbs to the sides, pointing outward.

The assistants will move in, kick the chocks out, and once both are cleared of the wing tips, the crew chief will marshal the jet out of its parking space.

The pilot will taxi to 'end of runway' (EOR) and here is the second cycling process begins. At EOR, there is no need to have the flight control system go thru its self tests again. The ground crew will perform a final inspect of the jet's outer condition. All panels must be visually flushed with the body. All pins, such as landing gears and weapons safes, must be removed. Tires must be in good operating condition such as no fibers visible. No running drips of any fluid, unless it came from the weather. Someone will hover his hand over the brakes to make sure they not overheated because that would indicate dragging brakes from the chocks to EOR, which would abort the mission for that day. Dragging brake is not possible to fix on a red ball call.

If the jet is equipped with TVC engines, EOR is where there MUST be a final check of the nozzles operations the same way as when the jet was in the chocks.

The ground operations I described above are common to all air forces that are serious about preserving their jets. The steps came from WW I and they tried and trued, from peace to war times. Much of what an aircraft can do, we can infer from ground operations.

So far, of the many ground photos of the J-20, there is not a single photo of a drooping nozzle when hydraulic pressure is off, or when the jet is in the chocks going thru its preflight checks, or when the jet is in EOR readied for takeoff.

@Deino @ptldM3 @pakistanipower @Taygibay @Tiger Awan

 

[Deino]

J-20 will have far more powerful engines to enable it to launch from aircraft carrier - assume 180kN each from J-20 as opposed to 130kN each from F-14 Tomcat. Also,we are talking about future carriers that will be larger than the current one.

@Deino: Your reply was childish and not suitable for that of a mod.

Yes but it was probably as childish like these stupid claims the J-20 uses a WS-15 since day one !
... take it simply as some fun.

The short answer is: J-20, version 2001, is already equipped with WS-15 right from the beginning, back in year 2011. And WS-15 is also equipped with 3D-TVC right from the beginning. IMO. So now, after 5 years of testing with WS-15 and 3D-TVC, the design of J-20 is frozen and going into LRIP.

TVC is especially useful in two situations: slow, post-stall speed, where your control surfaces are no longer effective. In High-altitude, where the air is so thin, your control surfaces are much less effective.

Dear @Asok .... PLAESE !!

No, it is YOUR phantasy, Your conclusion based on some observations very few here agree with ... as such tell it not as a fact - and please not again this long post of what You already posted so often ! - ... tell it as You opinion and that's fine, but not as facts.

When CAC/AVIC or the PLAAF has announced what engine it uses, then it is a fact ... until then it's an opinion and IMO a stupid one.

Deino

 

[Asoka]

I said ". . . right from the beginning. IMO."

And who was so sure and definite that he bet: If J-20 has WS-15, or TVC already,

"I would bet my membership here ... I will resign as a mod and even as a poster here !"

That explains the reason for all the vehement hysterical and irrational denials, oppositions, doubts and objections to J-20 already has WS-15 and TVC.

Can a mod take that kind of obsolute position and still be fair and objective and reasonable in his moderations?

For fairness's sake, someone owes us an explanation to his behaviors.

As I have already said China played brilliant Game of Deception regarding J-20's capability. It got CIA, Pentagon, and other Western Intelligence Agencies fooled, big time. They got way more resources and brain powers and professional spies than a fanboy could ever hope to muster. Yet, they got fooled, just like us (fanboys).

The West will lose their Air Dominance, they have enjoyed since the end of WWII, because of this. The political and strategic implications of J-20 is well beyond that of a fighter airplane. It will change the international dynamics for the next several decades.

For the first time in the last several hundred years, China has a conventional weapon platform that is, at least, on par with the best of the world.

So it is absolutely not a question of "stupidity" that we (I mean me too) got fooled for so long. I have followed J-20, like everybody here, since the debut in 2011, and even earlier following all the rumors of J-XX, and I am not ashamed to say, I didn't know anything, definite, about J-20's engine. I was kept in a state of suspension.

While I never believed J-20 is using WS-10X or AL-31FN, but I have no idea/belief/opinion that it is using WS-15, until I became active in PDF since November, 2016.

It is through active discussions and digging that I came to my conclusion. I don't claim any superior knowledge or ability. Like everyone else, I learned everything about J-20, through the Internet.

So if anyone admits that he/she was wrong about J-20, he/she don't lost my respect, but gain my respect.

 

[gambit]

Here...

...Is an F-22 performing its typical ground checks while in the chocks.

Right from the beginning, the TVC nozzles are in motion to their fullest limits.

The PLAAF is no different. Where are the images of the J-20 performing its TVC nozzle checks on the ground ?

I said ". . . right from the beginning. IMO."

That explains the reason for all the vehement hysterical and irrational denials, oppositions, doubts and objections to J-20 already has WS-15 and TVC.

Objections to concrete facts are irrational. To opinions -- not.

 

[GiantPanda]

I was born in China, grown up in Canada, now living in US with my family.

I agreed, though, I am practically, the only person, here, believes J-20 is going into LRIP with WS-15.

The timelines for China's engine projects simply rule out the WS-15 as an engine for the J-20. Any half-way serious PLA watcher would know that. WS-10xx is a possibility but not the WS-15.

At any rate, right or wrong your opinion doesn't bother me as much as the racist reaction against all "PDF Chinese."

 

[帅的一匹]

The timelines for China's engine projects simply rule out the WS-15 as an engine for the J-20. Any half-way serious PLA watcher would know that. WS-10xx is a possibility but not the WS-15.

At any rate, right or wrong your opinion doesn't bother me as much as the racist reaction against all "PDF Chinese."

Timeline of WS15 in year 2019?

 

[Deino]

I said ". . . right from the beginning. IMO."

And who was so sure and definite that he bet: If J-20 has WS-15, or TVC already,

"I would bet my membership here ... I will resign as a mod and even as a poster here !"

That explains the reason for all the vehement hysterical and irrational denials, oppositions, doubts and objections to J-20 already has WS-15 and TVC.

Can a mod take that kind of obsolute position and still be fair and objective and reasonable in his moderations?

For fairness's sake, someone owes us an explanation to his behaviors.

As I have already said China played brilliant Game of Deception regarding J-20's capability. It got CIA, Pentagon, and other Western Intelligence Agencies fooled, big time. They got way more resources and brain powers and professional spies than a fanboy could ever hope to muster. Yet, they got fooled, just like us (fanboys).

The West will lose their Air Dominance, they have enjoyed since the end of WWII, because of this. The political and strategic implications of J-20 is well beyond that of a fighter airplane. It will change the international dynamics for the next several decades.

For the first time in the last several hundred years, China has a conventional weapon platform that is, at least, on par with the best of the world.

So it is absolutely not a question of "stupidity" that we (I mean me too) got fooled for so long. I have followed J-20, like everybody here, since the debut in 2011, and even earlier following all the rumors of J-XX, and I am not ashamed to say, I didn't know anything, definite, about J-20's engine. I was kept in a state of suspension.

While I never believed J-20 is using WS-10X or AL-31FN, but I have no idea/belief/opinion that it is using WS-15, until I became active in PDF since November, 2016.

It is through active discussions and digging that I came to my conclusion. I don't claim any superior knowledge or ability. Like everyone else, I learned everything about J-20, through the Internet.

Agreed ! And I will hold my promise: I will resign as a moderator and my lay down membership too if the J-20 as we know them now, already uses a WS-15. FACT.


But I beg You to accept that so far none of Your arguments is confirmed a fact; IMO even more they are all baseless claims which otherwise can be explained much simpler and even if some mysteries remain, I again see no reason to try to explain them with these overrated expectations. This is far from any “vehement hysterical and irrational denials, oppositions, doubts and objections”, its plain simple another conclusion.

Consequently there indeed some sort of deception, but not that brilliant Game of Deception. Neither CIA, Pentagon, and other Western Intelligence Agencies are fooled and the only ones who are fooled are the fanboys like You.


Anyway – just to make it clear – I'm a great fan and enthusiast of the J-20, all I really never want is to play down its capabilities and I would be glad if I am wrong, I apologise and I will stick to my promise, but so long all I see confirms my point of view and nothing confirms these hyper-optimistic claims. In return I admire Your enthusiasm … but Your lack of rational is a bit “disturbing”. Therefore – and again don’t take it as an offence – I’m sure the day will come the PLAAF or CAC will tell the truth and it will be a sad day for all fan-boys.

Again, my point to begin with is being based on analytics, logic and evidence ... and not based on dreams, hopes and wishful-thinking and why on earth is every concern someone raises right away an insult to anything China did ??
Why do some think raising a concern, noting something critical is an attack ?

So if anyone admits that he/she was wrong about J-20, he/she don't lost my respect, but gain my respect.

Mine too ... but as long as it is not confirmed, there's no need to admit anything.

In return and quite ironic I can nearly quote Your post as reply but with one important difference:

So it is absolutely not a question of "stupidity" that we (I mean me too) got fooled for so long. I have followed J-20, like everybody here, since the debut in 2011, and even earlier following all the rumors of J-XX, and I am not ashamed to say, I didn't know anything, definite, about J-20's engine. I was kept in a state of suspension.

While I still believe the J-20 is using a special version of the AL-31FN, the idea/belief/opinion that it is using WS-15, is only commonly accepted by a minority of very active members in PDF since November, 2016. But it will not change the conclusion which I rate as facts.

As such let us in the end agree to disagree until the PLAF, CAC or AVIC will reveal the truth … and then I hold my promise or accept Your apology.

Deino

 

[Ultima Thule]

Dear @Asok .... PLAESE !!

No, it is YOUR phantasy, Your conclusion based on some observations very few here agree with ... as such tell it not as a fact - and please not again this long post of what You already posted so often ! - ... tell it as You opinion and that's fine, but not as facts.

When CAC/AVIC or the PLAAF has announced what engine it uses, then it is a fact ... until then it's an opinion and IMO a stupid one.

Deino

he don't understand you sir, he knows everything about J-20 from start till now he is completely blind he lives in too much in fairy tales and wishful thinking

Objections to concrete facts are irrational. To opinions -- not.

he don't understand you sir, he knows everything about J-20 from start till now he is completely blind he lives in too much in fairy tales and wishful thinking

 

[GiantPanda]

Timeline of WS15 in year 2019?

Timelines of what we know of the past not predict for the future. The WS-15 was first reported reaching a target 160kn during development experiments in 2009. It's ground testing was reported to have ended and that it was ready for an aerial testbed in 2016. So far, no rumors of a test on the Il-76 had actually happened. First flight of J-20 was in 2011. There is no chance of a WS-15 on any of the J-20s. They would never risk a new aircraft design with such a new engine.

2019? Maybe if we hear about the Il-76 test flight of the Emei this year. Then maybe in 2019 we see a conversion of one of the J-20 prototypes to a test system like the J-11 test of the WS-10 -- where one engine was the proven Al-31 and the other being the new engine.

 

[Asoka]

"Mine too ... but as long as it is not confirmed, there's no need to admit anything."

I agreed. I would like to say, I am pretty sure that I am right, but until it is officially confirmed. I won't say I am 100% correct or bet my life on it.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Timelines of what we know of the past not predict for the future. The WS-15 was first reported reaching a target 160kn during development experiments in 2009. It's ground testing was reported to have ended and that it was ready for an aerial testbed in 2016. So far, no rumors of a test on the Il-76 had actually happened. First flight of J-20 was in 2011. There is no chance of a WS-15 on any of the J-20s. They would never risk a new aircraft design with such a new engine.

2019? Maybe if we hear about the Il-76 test flight of the Emei this year. Then maybe in 2019 we see a conversion of one of the J-20 prototypes to a test system like the J-11 test of the WS-10 -- where one engine was the proven Al-31 and the other being the new engine.

Try to educate Mr @Asok he blindly believe WS-15 is in the J-20 currently, @ChineseTiger1986 clearly stated that currently J-20 is using hybrid version WS-10X and WS-15