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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

The J-20 has the electro-optical distributed aperature system. Basically, IRST sensors scattered around the aircraft. Yes, I know it's been done on the F-35. However, the J-20's large payload and high range, coupled with F-35 level electronics and sensors, makes for a plane with high survivability.
 
hmm interesting:D

but how is related to WS 15 engine ,IS it any secret info that WS 15 is also marred by such ovalization problem :lol:
It is applicable to ALL jet engine designs. The tighter the tolerances, the greater the odds of turbine blades rubbing against the casing over time as the casing deforms from circular. Do not forget that the constant high temperature aid in this deformation. Even non-cylinders are affected when physically stressed and subjected to high temperature.

The Effect of the Ovality of the Balls of a Radial-Thrust Bearing on the Axial Vibration of a Rapidly Rotating Rotor of an Engine,
Abstract : It is shown that ovality of radial thrust bearing balls generate vibrations in an engine with a rapidly rotating turbine, and that the vibration spectrum contains harmonic components which are multiples of the double frequency of revolution of the balls. Formulas for calculating the amplitudes of these components are proposed.

Ovalization in circular structures is well known in non-aviation manufacturing as well.

Induction Bending & High Precision Bends | Advanced Bending Technologies
The following information is measured and recorded:

Induction Bending Temperature
Degree of Bend
Material Hardness
Precentage of Ovality
Percentage of Wall Thinning
A jet engine is not an easy endeavor.
 
The J-20 has the electro-optical distributed aperature system. Basically, IRST sensors scattered around the aircraft. Yes, I know it's been done on the F-35. However, the J-20's large payload and high range, coupled with F-35 level electronics and sensors, makes for a plane with high survivability.

NOW what has large payload & high range got to with "high survivability":lol:

if thats the case then long range bomber is more survivable than jet.

& dont think J20's electronics & sensor equal to F 35 ,there is a god damned limit to be biased
 
My proposal on shooting down a true fifth-generation stealth fighter (F-22 or J-20)

Bi-static or multi-static radar is problematic in shooting down a F-22, because the most likely conflict is over Taiwan. Taiwan is an island in the ocean and it's difficult to receive the radar bounce from the underbelly of a transient F-22 flying overhead.

My proposal is purely theoretical. I don't believe the actual scenario will happen.

a. Chinese SRBM can neutralize all Taiwanese military bases in about 20 minutes. The war is over.

b. F-22 has too short a combat radius (e.g. 471 miles) to be deployed in the Asian theater. Japanese airbases can also be vaporized by Chinese SRBM, IRBM, and cruise missiles in 20 minutes. This war is over. There are no Japanese air bases available for F-22 operation.

I can't think of a plausible scenario where the F-22 can realistically reach the Chinese coast. Air-refueling tankers are giant targets and they'll be shot out of the sky in record time. Drop tanks imply a one-way kamikaze trip. Also, the F-22 will not have enough fuel to loiter and fight in the airspace above the eastern Chinese coast.

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Anyway, let's move on to the more interesting discussion of shooting down a F-22 (or J-20).

1. A F-22 or J-20 is optimized to minimize its reflection of centimeter-resolution X-band AESA radar.

2. However, a F-22 can be detected with meter-resolution Low-Band radar (see Russian / PLA Low Band Surveillance Radar Systems (Counter Low Observable Technology Radars)).

The problem with Low-Band radar is that it can only provide a general location (within a few meters or tens of meters) of a fast-moving stealth fighter. How do we narrow down its true position in space?

Let's use triangulation. While the Low-Band radar from a single unit will provide uncertainty in a bubble of space, we will use multiple Low-Band radar units scattered over the entire eastern Chinese coast. We will aggregate the readings from multiple Low-Band radars over a wide area and that should provide the location of an incoming F-22.

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Using triangulation, we can pinpoint the location of a F-22 with meter-resolution Low-Band radars. Relay the targeting information to a SAM or air-to-air missile and you have a good chance of shooting down a stealth fighter.

Alternatively, we can conceptually build a dual-seeker missile. The missile could fly towards the center-point of its Low-Band radar reflection. Within 20km of its target, it activates its AESA radar and looks for a F-22. Even if the success rate is only 20%, it would only require five missiles to shoot down a F-22. If you like, you can experiment with a Low-Band radar and tv dual-head seeker.
 
My proposal is purely theoretical.
And quite :lol: entertaining :lol: for those of us who have relevant experience in the matter. Kinda like one of your 'Engineer' who proclaimed the J-20's all moving stabs are 'more advanced' than the F-22's rudders despite nearly 100 yrs of aviation history that says nothing of the sort.
 
Tracking a F-22 with a low-band radar through statistical averaging

The problem with meter-resolution low-band radar is that it provides a general area where an enemy stealth fighter is located. Previously, I discussed the technique of triangulation from multiple low-band radar sites to narrow down the position of the F-22.

Today, I want to discuss the technique of statistical averaging. Using a single low-band radar, it might be possible to predict the coordinates for the location of a F-22. Though a single low-band radar reflection may be imprecise, the continuous tracking of a F-22 and the plotting of a smooth curve would show the current F-22 location.

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By tracking the radar reflections from a single low-band radar, it may be possible to precisely identify the location of a F-22 through statistical averaging.

Obviously, the most effective defense is to use a network of low-band radars and combine the techniques of triangulation and statistical averaging to identify the exact location of a F-22. To neutralize an enemy stealth fighter, SAMs or air-to-air missiles can be used.

If all else fails, vector in a squadron of J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighters for an intercept.
 
NOW what has large payload & high range got to with "high survivability":lol:

if thats the case then long range bomber is more survivable than jet.

& dont think J20's electronics & sensor equal to F 35 ,there is a god damned limit to be biased
Very little if any. He does not understand the idea in the first place.

Aircraft Combat Survivability (ACS) by practical definition, not by someone who have no military experience, is...

The Aircraft Combat Survivability Education Web Site
The aircraft combat survivability discipline is dedicated to enhancing the survivability and effectiveness of aircraft that fly in man-made hostile environments.
ACS is about entrant into a hostile air environment whose threats ranges from EM to physical contacts -- bullets and missiles. Each type of threats warrant a distinct response. Enhanced survivability is possible by the integration of those responses in some ways to either avoid or nullify a threat or a series of threats that came from one or more sensor modes working in concert to create what we call 'modern air defense'.

Just as EM is a method of foreknowledge by one side to detect incoming threats such as aircrafts or missiles, intelligence about an air defense network also constitute foreknowledge by the attacking side when that side is formulating an attack plan. Knowledge of locations of air defense radar and their accompanying missile launch sites, air bases within combat distance, or commmand and control centers allow the attacker to create an ingress path to avoid the first threat -- EM. And if avoidance is successful and allow the attacking aircraft to accomplish its mission, whatever it may be, and escape relatively unharmed, then that is a successful event of ACS.

Vulnerability is defined as the degrees of ability to withstand contact -- EM or physical -- in this hostile environment. Believe it or not, in the early days of EM integration into air defense, it was found that some unprotected electronics actually did fail when the aircraft came into EM contact. Fortunately, that lesson was learned during peace time and inside friendly soil during modernization of aviation. Vulnerability can be from design weaknesses and flaws as well and nothing to do with the enemy.

For a few examples...

- The F-14's widely spaced engines enhanced battle damage survivability in the event one engine is degraded but it increases difficulty to maintain controlled flight due to asymmetric thrust. Which is more important?

- The lack of fuel tank fire suppression in one aircraft design compared to another, which is going to survive combat to accomplish its mission and get the crew home?

- How robust is the flight control systems? The A-10's mechanical FLCS is proven to be very robust in contact with the enemy whereas the F-16's all electronics FLCS must rely on strategic internal placements of components and software redundancies to maintain flight in combat if the FLCS is damaged.

Because an aircraft is an exercise in practical compromises, its combat survivability is never deterministic. Technological enhancements in one or more sub-disciplines such as avionics may increases its vulnerability to the point where whatever advancements are simply not worth the integration or reduced the aircraft's versatility. Case in point is the F-117's new low radar observable technology. The technology was deemed worthwhile enough to integrate into the overall battle plans for the USAF but because the technology's own weaknesses limited the aircraft's usability to largely night time missions to reduce its vulnerability in the visual spectrum. When the technology progressed enough, that lack of versatility disappeared with the B-2, F-22, and F-35.

Large payload and distance, long or short, have next to nothing value regarding survivability.
 
J-20 Mighty Dragon is critical to building low-band radar defense against F-22

In theory, we know we can use the physics principle of "resonance" (see citation below) to determine the approximate location of a F-22 stealth fighter. In addition, we know we can use the principles of triangulation and "tracking through statistical averaging over time" to pinpoint the location of a F-22.

Russian / PLA Low Band Surveillance Radar Systems (Counter Low Observable Technology Radars)

"The Rezonans-N radar is a mobile highly automated coherent all-round surveillance phased-array radar employing the resonance wave reflection effect in the metric wavelength band. It is designed to monitor airspace, to acquire, identify and measure with high accuracy co-ordinates and flight characteristics of a wide range of existing and prospective air targets at long ranges and high altitudes, including low-observable cruise and ballistic missiles and hypersonic aircraft, as well as stealthy ones, in severe jamming and clutter environment, as well as to be used within automated/non-automated command and control systems, non-strategic missile defence systems, rapid deployment assets, and in various military/civil-purpose applications."

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How do we utilize these physics principles and build an effective low-band radar defense network against a F-22? The development of the J-20 Mighty Dragon stealth fighter becomes critical. Except for the rear aspect (due to the current lack of flat nozzles), a J-20 is a close approximation of a F-22 in frontal, side, and underside aspect stealth.

Chinese engineers need access to a real stealth fighter (e.g. J-20 or F-22) to test and refine their low-band radar defense network. The development of the J-20 allows Chinese engineers the opportunity to evaluate their low-band radar defense network performance and perfect an effective defense against intruding F-22s.

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65th test flight of China's J-20 stealth fighter. (Sourced from Xinhuanet: 65th test flight of China's stealth fighter J-20 - Xinhua | English.news.cn)

A precondition to building an effective low-band radar defense network is the construction of a stealthy J-20 Mighty Dragon. By pitting a J-20 against their low-band radar defenses, Chinese engineers can perfect a functioning and reliable defense system.
 
In theory, we know we can use the physics principle of "resonance" (see citation below) to determine the approximate location of a F-22 stealth fighter.
In reality, we know that meters lengths freqs are always ground based and powerful in order to support those meters lengths pulses. They are powerful enough that they will advertise their presence and operations long before their effective detection distance is breached, meaning the F-22 will detect them and their operations at the 100% maximum distance while the effective detection distance of ANY radar system is about 80% or less of that maximum. The intruding F-22 or F-35 can use an assortment of tactics to avoid these powerful systems: 'beamrider' navigation, terrain masking via avoidance and following, EM distraction via drones emitting pulses with similar signal characteristics, and many others that the Chinese air defense have no experience in usage and responses.
 
In theory, we know we can use the physics principle of "resonance" (see citation below) to determine the approximate location of a F-22 stealth fighter. In addition, we know we can use the principles of triangulation and "tracking through statistical averaging over time" to pinpoint the location of a F-22.

Russian / PLA Low Band Surveillance Radar Systems (Counter Low Observable Technology Radars)

The Rezonans-N radar is a mobile highly automated coherent all-round surveillance phased-array radar employing the resonance wave reflection effect in the metric wavelength band. It is designed to monitor airspace, to acquire, identify and measure with high accuracy co-ordinates and flight characteristics of a wide range of existing and prospective air targets at long ranges and high altitudes, including low-observable cruise and ballistic missiles and hypersonic aircraft, as well as stealthy ones, in severe jamming and clutter environment, as well as to be used within automated/non-automated command and control systems, non-strategic missile defence systems, rapid deployment assets, and in various military/civil-purpose applications."
What is the specific behavior of an impinging signal upon a body that result in 'resonance'? Does it occur only at certain wavelengths independent of body dimensions?
 
J-20 Mighty Dragon is critical to building low-band radar defense against F-22

In theory, we know we can use the physics principle of "resonance" (see citation below) to determine the approximate location of a F-22 stealth fighter. In addition, we know we can use the principles of triangulation and "tracking through statistical averaging over time" to pinpoint the location of a F-22.


In practice however, we all know you are theorising things out of thin air and pretty much nothing you say makes scientific sense.


Triangulation ?? what are we going to see next ?

Oh I know.. let me suggest a novel and ingenious way to detect the F-22.

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how about that.. no triangulation and anything.. huh ?
 
PLA low-band radars to detect stealth fighters

CCTV: PLA low-band radars designed especially for tracking a stealth fighter like the F-22 (央视曝光:解放军装备针对F22的各型雷达).

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Reference: http://bbs.news.163.com/bbs/mil/212932075.html

[Note: Thank you to Greyboy2 for the post.]
 
PLA low-band radars to detect stealth fighters

CCTV: PLA low-band radars designed especially for tracking a stealth fighter like the F-22 (央视曝光:解放军装备针对F22的各型雷达).
How? We are curious to see some reasonable technical explanations.
 
How? We are curious to see some reasonable technical explanations.

If you hadn't been spamming my posts with b.s. rhetoric, I would have explained it.

You make me unhappy. I ignore you.

There are three critical differences. You can figure it out yourself.
 
NOW what has large payload & high range got to with "high survivability":lol:

if thats the case then long range bomber is more survivable than jet.

& dont think J20's electronics & sensor equal to F 35 ,there is a god damned limit to be biased

There are 2 planes in the world with EODAS. That'd be the J-20 and F-35; the PAK-FA still uses a single IRST camera ball. These provide full 3-D situational awareness in the IR spectrum. If the J-20's electronics are not at the level of F-35, then it is at least 2nd best. Payload and high range influence survivability due to being able to strategically deploy the aircraft at airfields further away from places where they are more likely to be destroyed by a preemptive attack and to place more buffer radars/IADS so that they can perform at maximum efficiency. In addition, it reduces the constraints of fuel on maneuvering. High payload influences survivability by giving the plane more opportunities to shoot down other planes before being forced to retreat.
 
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