pardon me I was a bit rude-- Khans often get irritated by citation of brains
Very much out of place...lets keep the cancer of provincialism out of these discussions please.
Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions
- Thread starter EagleEyes
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Very much out of place...lets keep the cancer of provincialism out of these discussions please.
BATMAN
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And what is this advance J-10?
Owais
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fatman17
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Chinese J-10 'benefited from the Lavi project'
Robert Hewson Jane's Air-Launched Weapons Editor-Russia
Key Points
Russian sources have confirmed to Jane's that the J-10, which they worked on, is based on Israel's Lavi
China "had already had a lot of help from Israel", said one source
Russian aerospace engineers have confirmed to Jane's that China's Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself.
In a number of interviews Jane's has talked at length with several engineers, designers and technical specialists - some of whom have been working with their Chinese counterparts for decades and have had first-hand experience on Chinese military projects. They have provided detailed accounts of the assistance given to various Chinese manufacturers and their military aircraft projects. This has included extensive design and performance modelling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input.
Senior Russian engineers who spoke to Jane's recalled their many visits to Chengdu, and elsewhere in China, some of which began in the 1980s. Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities. Describing his conversations with Chengdu concerning possession of a Lavi aircraft, one Jane's source commented: "I did not consider that to be a revelation ... doesn't everyone know that already?"
It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments. The charge of Lavi technology transfer has been made before, but this time the claims come from individuals with sustained personal experience of the programme. Both Chinese and Israeli officials have long refuted any purported links between the J-10 and the Lavi.
Neither is it clear whether a Lavi aircraft was permanently transferred to China or if one was given to Chengdu for a specific period of time. When asked, the same Russian engineer commented that he had never heard anyone in Chengdu suggest that China had a acquired a Pakistan Air Force Lockheed Martin F-16 for study to inform J-10 development - a claim that has been made elsewhere in the past.
Officials from Israel Aerospace Industries, previously Israel Aircraft Industries, declined to comment on the Russian claims.
Jane's has heard how Russian engineers met Israeli counterparts at Chinese facilities and often saw documentation and technical drawings marked in Hebrew. When asked about the J-10, one Russian department head remarked: "What Chengdu aircraft? There is no Chengdu aircraft. Everything they have came from somebody else."
There is no doubt that some J-10 design and development work was done in Russia. For example, in 2000 - when there were still flaws in the basic aircraft - Chengdu engineers took a number of different J-10 models to Russia for extensive wind-tunnel testing. A key Russian skill was the ability to conduct detailed spin and high-angle-of-attack testing in a horizontal wind tunnel.
One Russian specialist involved in those and other tests said: "They had already had a lot of help from Israel and what they wanted most of all was to validate their own people and their testing methods rather than the design. Chengdu already has access to a huge aerodynamics facility with underground wind tunnels."
Those Russian specialists who have worked in China are often scathing about China's real level of design capabilities and have become more so as China relies less and less on foreign industrial input. They remain impressed, however, by the scale of resources and funding that has been poured into China's programmes.
"The advance in facilities at Chengdu has been astonishing over the last 20 years. They now have a huge site with completely new test and development facilities, laboratories and an entirely new production line - quite apart from what was there to begin with. Chengdu is the only Chinese manufacturer to maintain its own design bureau. At Shenyang they have only a small office that can make small changes. Chengdu on the other hand is sitting in China's Silicon Valley. The nearby town of Mianyang is a major centre for China's electronics industry and also has a big aerodynamics research facility of its own [the China Air Dynamics Research and Development Centre]," Jane's was told.
However, the potential impact of the Sichuan earthquake of 11 May on the aviation industry centred around Chengdu could be severe. There were particular fears for the research facility at Mianyang, one of the towns close to the epicentre of the quake reported to have been completely destroyed. With the disaster striking at the heart of China's aviation hub, it was hard not to see the J-10 project - and China's aviation industry as a whole - suffering considerable setbacks.
Chinese J-10 'benefited from the Lavi project'
Robert Hewson Jane's Air-Launched Weapons Editor-Russia
Key Points
Russian sources have confirmed to Jane's that the J-10, which they worked on, is based on Israel's Lavi
China "had already had a lot of help from Israel", said one source
Russian aerospace engineers have confirmed to Jane's that China's Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself.
In a number of interviews Jane's has talked at length with several engineers, designers and technical specialists - some of whom have been working with their Chinese counterparts for decades and have had first-hand experience on Chinese military projects. They have provided detailed accounts of the assistance given to various Chinese manufacturers and their military aircraft projects. This has included extensive design and performance modelling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input.
Senior Russian engineers who spoke to Jane's recalled their many visits to Chengdu, and elsewhere in China, some of which began in the 1980s. Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities. Describing his conversations with Chengdu concerning possession of a Lavi aircraft, one Jane's source commented: "I did not consider that to be a revelation ... doesn't everyone know that already?"
It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments. The charge of Lavi technology transfer has been made before, but this time the claims come from individuals with sustained personal experience of the programme. Both Chinese and Israeli officials have long refuted any purported links between the J-10 and the Lavi.
Neither is it clear whether a Lavi aircraft was permanently transferred to China or if one was given to Chengdu for a specific period of time. When asked, the same Russian engineer commented that he had never heard anyone in Chengdu suggest that China had a acquired a Pakistan Air Force Lockheed Martin F-16 for study to inform J-10 development - a claim that has been made elsewhere in the past.
Officials from Israel Aerospace Industries, previously Israel Aircraft Industries, declined to comment on the Russian claims.
Jane's has heard how Russian engineers met Israeli counterparts at Chinese facilities and often saw documentation and technical drawings marked in Hebrew. When asked about the J-10, one Russian department head remarked: "What Chengdu aircraft? There is no Chengdu aircraft. Everything they have came from somebody else."
There is no doubt that some J-10 design and development work was done in Russia. For example, in 2000 - when there were still flaws in the basic aircraft - Chengdu engineers took a number of different J-10 models to Russia for extensive wind-tunnel testing. A key Russian skill was the ability to conduct detailed spin and high-angle-of-attack testing in a horizontal wind tunnel.
One Russian specialist involved in those and other tests said: "They had already had a lot of help from Israel and what they wanted most of all was to validate their own people and their testing methods rather than the design. Chengdu already has access to a huge aerodynamics facility with underground wind tunnels."
Those Russian specialists who have worked in China are often scathing about China's real level of design capabilities and have become more so as China relies less and less on foreign industrial input. They remain impressed, however, by the scale of resources and funding that has been poured into China's programmes.
"The advance in facilities at Chengdu has been astonishing over the last 20 years. They now have a huge site with completely new test and development facilities, laboratories and an entirely new production line - quite apart from what was there to begin with. Chengdu is the only Chinese manufacturer to maintain its own design bureau. At Shenyang they have only a small office that can make small changes. Chengdu on the other hand is sitting in China's Silicon Valley. The nearby town of Mianyang is a major centre for China's electronics industry and also has a big aerodynamics research facility of its own [the China Air Dynamics Research and Development Centre]," Jane's was told.
However, the potential impact of the Sichuan earthquake of 11 May on the aviation industry centred around Chengdu could be severe. There were particular fears for the research facility at Mianyang, one of the towns close to the epicentre of the quake reported to have been completely destroyed. With the disaster striking at the heart of China's aviation hub, it was hard not to see the J-10 project - and China's aviation industry as a whole - suffering considerable setbacks.
Owais
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we have already decided to buy 36 of them by the end of 2009 but its avionics are yet to be decided.
Mubashar_ali
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Chinese J-10 'benefited from the Lavi project'
By Robert Hewson
19 May 2008
Russian aerospace engineers have confirmed to Jane's that China's Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself.
In a number of interviews Jane's has talked at length with several engineers, designers and technical specialists - some of whom have been working with their Chinese counterparts for decades and have had first-hand experience on Chinese military projects. They have provided detailed accounts of the assistance given to various Chinese manufacturers and their military aircraft projects. This has included extensive design and performance modelling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input.
Senior Russian engineers who spoke to Jane's recalled their many visits to Chengdu, and elsewhere in China, some of which began in the 1980s. Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities. Describing his conversations with Chengdu concerning possession of a Lavi aircraft, one Jane's source commented: "I did not consider that to be a revelation ... doesn't everyone know that already?"
It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments. The charge of Lavi technology transfer has been made before, but this time the claims come from individuals with sustained personal experience of the programme. Both Chinese and Israeli officials have long refuted any purported links between the J-10 and the Lavi.
Image: China's J-10 (Internet)
234 of 785 words
© 2008 Jane's Information Group
By Robert Hewson
19 May 2008
Russian aerospace engineers have confirmed to Jane's that China's Chengdu J-10 fighter aircraft benefited from significant, direct input from Israel's Lavi programme - including access to the Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) Lavi aircraft itself.
In a number of interviews Jane's has talked at length with several engineers, designers and technical specialists - some of whom have been working with their Chinese counterparts for decades and have had first-hand experience on Chinese military projects. They have provided detailed accounts of the assistance given to various Chinese manufacturers and their military aircraft projects. This has included extensive design and performance modelling, wind-tunnel testing and advanced aerodynamic design input.
Senior Russian engineers who spoke to Jane's recalled their many visits to Chengdu, and elsewhere in China, some of which began in the 1980s. Jane's was told how Chengdu officials of the highest level stated how they had one of the IAI Lavi prototypes in their facilities. Describing his conversations with Chengdu concerning possession of a Lavi aircraft, one Jane's source commented: "I did not consider that to be a revelation ... doesn't everyone know that already?"
It is not possible to independently verify the Russian comments. The charge of Lavi technology transfer has been made before, but this time the claims come from individuals with sustained personal experience of the programme. Both Chinese and Israeli officials have long refuted any purported links between the J-10 and the Lavi.
Image: China's J-10 (Internet)
234 of 785 words
© 2008 Jane's Information Group
Always Neutral
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Asia Times
Israel's role in China's new warplane
By David Isenberg
The recent unveiling (sort of) of China's first domestically designed (sort of) fighter jet was the culmination of a long saga of international military-hardware wheeling and dealing that has seen US-designed or -funded high-tech weaponry fall into the hands of potential military rivals
The program began in the late 1980s and is thought to be based on an Israeli design. It contains Israeli and Russian avionics, and is powered by Russian engines.
Chinese engineers developed the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel's US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was canceled in 1987, according to the Federation of American Scientists website. The Lavi was based on the US F-16 and built with US$1.3 billion in aid from Washington.
Yet China's acquisition of the Russian Su-27, after China had attempted for years to develop the J-10 aircraft with equivalent technology to perform similar functions, is seen by some experts as a sign that China lacks confidence in its domestic industrial capabilities.
Just posted some interesting comments on the so called Chinese effort put into the J 10.
Regards
Israel's role in China's new warplane
By David Isenberg
The recent unveiling (sort of) of China's first domestically designed (sort of) fighter jet was the culmination of a long saga of international military-hardware wheeling and dealing that has seen US-designed or -funded high-tech weaponry fall into the hands of potential military rivals
The program began in the late 1980s and is thought to be based on an Israeli design. It contains Israeli and Russian avionics, and is powered by Russian engines.
Chinese engineers developed the J-10 from a single F-16 provided by Pakistan, and with assistance from Israeli engineers associated with Israel's US-financed Lavi fighter program, which was canceled in 1987, according to the Federation of American Scientists website. The Lavi was based on the US F-16 and built with US$1.3 billion in aid from Washington.
Yet China's acquisition of the Russian Su-27, after China had attempted for years to develop the J-10 aircraft with equivalent technology to perform similar functions, is seen by some experts as a sign that China lacks confidence in its domestic industrial capabilities.
Just posted some interesting comments on the so called Chinese effort put into the J 10.
Regards
AgNoStiC MuSliM
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The Chinese did put a lot of effort into the J-10.
No one is calling it the Lavi are they? While it may have benefited from the "input from Israels Lavi program", it is nonetheless not considered a Lavi or F-16 clone, and China needed the requisite scientific, technological and manufacturing base to incorporate and develop any "input" it received.
The Saudis have a lot of money as well, do you think that if the US handed over all the designs for the F-16 the Saudis could even come close to developing and manufacturing more a handful of components used in the F-16, let alone design a new fighter based of some of the design parameters of the F-16?
Whether one "imports" scientists (the US nuclear program) or technology to get a heads up, I see little difference. They key is whether the nations doing the "importing" have the capability to absorb and further develop the knowledge being imported. And the Chinese have shown they do, as have the Pakistanis in their nuclear and missile program.
No one is calling it the Lavi are they? While it may have benefited from the "input from Israels Lavi program", it is nonetheless not considered a Lavi or F-16 clone, and China needed the requisite scientific, technological and manufacturing base to incorporate and develop any "input" it received.
The Saudis have a lot of money as well, do you think that if the US handed over all the designs for the F-16 the Saudis could even come close to developing and manufacturing more a handful of components used in the F-16, let alone design a new fighter based of some of the design parameters of the F-16?
Whether one "imports" scientists (the US nuclear program) or technology to get a heads up, I see little difference. They key is whether the nations doing the "importing" have the capability to absorb and further develop the knowledge being imported. And the Chinese have shown they do, as have the Pakistanis in their nuclear and missile program.
araz
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I fully agree with this post. What one has to understand is that this news has done the rounds before as well. It was never confirmed, and refuted by both parties,ie Chinese and Israelis.
The truth is there may have been a lot of input in to the basic design by the Israelis but things have moved on and the J10 that we see today is different from the Lavi in many respects. It is an attribute to the hard work, research and determination of the chinese which has made J10 the plane it is today.
The story of collaboration is there for many projects but it should not take the credit away from the chinese who have brought the job to fruition.
waSalam
Araz
fatman17
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and the powerplant (?)
MastanKhan
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Hi,
Regardless of what one may believe about the chinese ingenuity and experties, they were clueless as to how to make a world class fighter aircraft. They had no technique and ability and didnot know from where to start---at the head or at the toe---no insult intended---. Indeed the israelis helped them alot with their lavi design. After the israelis were gone---the paf engineers helped them in a better finished product in other production ventures.
The reader must understand that it is next to impossible to come up with a potent design and style as that of a J 10 without any prior experience of producing a similiar fighter.
Agno---you are correct---without an advanced understanding, an advanced design capability and manufacturing facilities, any design is worthless unless it can be deciphered at first---the problem one faces is that at every step of this aircraft's design and manufacture, there is a MOUNT EVEREST to conquer for the first time each time till you get down to manufacturing the engine---that is when the abilities of the men are seperated from the boys.
Regardless of what one may believe about the chinese ingenuity and experties, they were clueless as to how to make a world class fighter aircraft. They had no technique and ability and didnot know from where to start---at the head or at the toe---no insult intended---. Indeed the israelis helped them alot with their lavi design. After the israelis were gone---the paf engineers helped them in a better finished product in other production ventures.
The reader must understand that it is next to impossible to come up with a potent design and style as that of a J 10 without any prior experience of producing a similiar fighter.
Agno---you are correct---without an advanced understanding, an advanced design capability and manufacturing facilities, any design is worthless unless it can be deciphered at first---the problem one faces is that at every step of this aircraft's design and manufacture, there is a MOUNT EVEREST to conquer for the first time each time till you get down to manufacturing the engine---that is when the abilities of the men are seperated from the boys.
Myth_buster_1
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By: Feng
Military Analyst
Recently, a lot of news have been coming out revealing the performance of J-10. We know that an upgraded J-10 is being worked out and might even have a prototype out next month and fly before the end of the year. One of the more revealing interviews came out recently through an interview with someone involved pretty deeply in J-10's avionics development. You can see the part one of the interview here and the part two of the interview here. It's in Chinese and really slow, so you might have problem viewing it, here is a recap of what I heard regarding to J-10:
- he said that avionics are very import, but are also very expensive
- J-10 cost 200 million Yuan each, export to Pakistan would probably be 300 million each
- out of that, 100 million is spent on the avionics, takes 10 years to develop
- one is DCFS (Digital Flight Control Systems), which allows pilot to control the plane with displayed information
- talks about the FBW computer, which does 500 K calculation per second (that's not even 1 MHz!, what?)
- other is mission computer, you just plug in the mission and the fighter will tell you what to do
- then talks about INS (inertial navigational system), you can go from Beijing to Shenzhen with this and only be off by 500 m
- and the other is CADC (central air data computer), it is used to detect the temperature, dew point, wind direction/speed and stuff like that.
- other is SMS (store management system), this is the system controlling the launching of missiles and bombs (it has to calculate how high you are launching certain weapons and your speed to achieve optimize results)
- radar - can detect up to 150 km (here is interesting part, he mentions that F-22 can only do 170 km, but that is vs 1 m^2 target, I doubt J-10 is facing that size to get to 150 km, maybe 3 m^2 or 5 M^2?)
- CNI - communication/navigation/identification, plane has wide band, narrow band (different types of waves that it's sending and receiving), didn't really talk about datalink or IFF, but I'm guessing that's part of this
- EMS - (electronic counter measure system?) - not much said
talks about a fighter jet is like a networked computer system with many sub parts, each has a computer that can do half to 1 million calculations per second. Also, they take up very little space.
China Air and Naval Power: Search results for pakistan
Military Analyst
Recently, a lot of news have been coming out revealing the performance of J-10. We know that an upgraded J-10 is being worked out and might even have a prototype out next month and fly before the end of the year. One of the more revealing interviews came out recently through an interview with someone involved pretty deeply in J-10's avionics development. You can see the part one of the interview here and the part two of the interview here. It's in Chinese and really slow, so you might have problem viewing it, here is a recap of what I heard regarding to J-10:
- he said that avionics are very import, but are also very expensive
- J-10 cost 200 million Yuan each, export to Pakistan would probably be 300 million each
- out of that, 100 million is spent on the avionics, takes 10 years to develop
- one is DCFS (Digital Flight Control Systems), which allows pilot to control the plane with displayed information
- talks about the FBW computer, which does 500 K calculation per second (that's not even 1 MHz!, what?)
- other is mission computer, you just plug in the mission and the fighter will tell you what to do
- then talks about INS (inertial navigational system), you can go from Beijing to Shenzhen with this and only be off by 500 m
- and the other is CADC (central air data computer), it is used to detect the temperature, dew point, wind direction/speed and stuff like that.
- other is SMS (store management system), this is the system controlling the launching of missiles and bombs (it has to calculate how high you are launching certain weapons and your speed to achieve optimize results)
- radar - can detect up to 150 km (here is interesting part, he mentions that F-22 can only do 170 km, but that is vs 1 m^2 target, I doubt J-10 is facing that size to get to 150 km, maybe 3 m^2 or 5 M^2?)
- CNI - communication/navigation/identification, plane has wide band, narrow band (different types of waves that it's sending and receiving), didn't really talk about datalink or IFF, but I'm guessing that's part of this
- EMS - (electronic counter measure system?) - not much said
talks about a fighter jet is like a networked computer system with many sub parts, each has a computer that can do half to 1 million calculations per second. Also, they take up very little space.
China Air and Naval Power: Search results for pakistan
Myth_buster_1
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