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Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

The best option for Pakistan regarding 5th Gen should be to join the Chineese stealth project. There would be more understanding between the teams on the requirements.

One doubt will Pakistan go for a two engined or single engined 5th gen fighter. I mean taking into consideration that cross country flight across Pakistan won' take much time, will Pakistan be preferring a single engined craft..

For now if PAF is able to acquire J-10 and J-17 it should make the right mix along with the F-16 fleet.
It would depend on the threat perception and PAF requirements in the time the 5th generation fighter would serve. That is decades worth of time, so we should not immediately say it will be a single engine fighter. Take into account the funds PAF would have by the time it inducts a 5th generation fighter, and the threat-level national analysts perceive around that time. Plus the partners PAF decides to develop the fighters will have an affect on its performance parameters...would Saudi Arabia want a single-engine fighter? What if China wants a lighter fighter than J-14, but still twin-engine? What if PAF wants to extend its range and payload capabilities in the future? There are multiple scenarios to take into account...and it would also depend on the preliminary designs CAC & SAC have...what if they based their design philosophy around twin-engine fighters?
 
this is a one year old article written by a western analyst. note the heading given to this article.

China builds a superpower fighter

By David Lague
Published: February 8, 2007

BEIJING: For more than two decades, China has labored to build its first state-of-the-art jet fighter as part of the country's drive to become a leading military power.
In December, it appeared to have closed in on that ambition when it revealed, in an unusual blaze of publicity, that its new fighter, the J-10, had entered service in the air force.

Footage of the new aircraft firing missiles and refueling in flight was shown on state-controlled television, and Chinese defense magazines have published lengthy reports with photographs of the single-engine fighter.

Although specific details about the J-10's performance and specifications remain highly classified, some Western and Chinese military experts say the successful development of this advanced, multirole aircraft could be the catalyst for China to become a leading force in military aviation.

They say that Chinese engineers, with help from Israel and Russia, had refined a design aimed at matching advanced aircraft such as the Lockheed Martin F-16, the frontline U.S. Air Force fighter that has also been sold to more than 20 countries.

"A generation of engineers was put through their major production experience on that aircraft," said Rick Fisher, an expert on the Chinese military and vice president of the International Strategy and Assessment Center, a research institute based in Alexandria, Virginia.

"It has enabled China to create a cadre of experts that will be building ever more advanced aircraft over the next 50 years."

Along with China's successful test of an anti-satellite missile on Jan. 11, the new fighter is further evidence that double-digit increases in defense spending over much of the last 15 years are being converted into sharply increased firepower for the People's Liberation Army.

The introduction of modern aircraft, missiles, submarines and warships over the past decade, along with the increased professionalism of its service personnel, means that China is rapidly gaining the military muscle to match its growing economic clout.
And, according to Chinese and foreign military analysts, its domestic defense industries are steadily mastering key technologies needed to reduce the military's heavy dependence on Russian weapons.

The fanfare for the J-10 was overshadowed outside China by the international outcry over the missile strike that destroyed a defunct weather satellite.

In the aftermath of the missile test, Beijing attempted to allay fears that its military buildup poses a threat to its neighbors or other major powers.

"We do not conceal our intention to build a strong and modern national defense," the deputy chief of general staff of the People's Liberation Army, Lieutenant General Zhang Qinsheng, said in an interview last Friday that was published on the front page of the official China Daily newspaper. "But," he continued, "we also tell the world candidly that the Chinese defense policy is always defensive in nature."

Despite these assurances, new weapons such as the J-10 are likely to contribute to growing unease, particularly in Asia, about China's long-term ambitions.

The threat from China's mounting air power is most keenly felt in Taiwan. Beijing regards the self-governing island as a renegade province and refuses to rule out the use of force if Taiwan makes any move toward formal independence.

Military experts say the deployment of the J-10 in big numbers will further erode the advantage in military technology that Taiwan's air force has enjoyed over its mainland rival.

On Jan. 23, Major General Wang Cheng-hsiao of Taiwan said that China had so far put about 60 J-10s into service and that these, in combination with China's advanced Russian-designed fighters, would give the mainland "supremacy over Taiwan in the air."
Lin Chong-pin, president of a research institute based in Taipei, the Foundation on International and Cross- Strait Studies, said Taiwan's advantage "is getting narrower and narrower."

"At the moment it is just in balance," added Lin, a former deputy defense minister in the governing Democratic Progressive Party. "If Taiwan doesn't do anything, it will tip in favor of the PLA air force."

To counter the threat, Taiwan wants to buy more F-16 fighters from the United States, but most analysts believe it is unlikely that the Bush administration will agree to this request while the island's legislature continues to block funding for an earlier arms order.
China plans to overhaul its air force as part of a larger effort to modernize its military, according to the defense White Paper that the Chinese government published in December. The document said China would concentrate on developing new fighters while reducing the overall number of combat aircraft.

"The air force aims at speeding up its transition from territorial air defense to both offensive and defensive operations and increasing its capabilities in the areas of strike, air and missile defense, early warning and reconnaissance and strategic projects," it said.

Although the official Chinese media described the J-10 as a "breakthrough" for Chinese military aviation, these reports also suggested that the plane was inferior to U.S. fighters like the F-16.

The Pentagon noted in May in its annual study on Chinese military power reports that the J-10 would be similar in weight and performance to two advanced European fighters, the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Dassault Rafale.

Fisher, of the International Strategy and Assessment Center, says that of the fighters in service around the world, only the American F-22 Raptor, jointly produced by Boeing, Lockheed Martin and Pratt & Whitney for the U.S. Air Force, would clearly outmatch the J-10.

"The J-10 is a significant military capability," he said. "It's a highly maneuverable fighter."
It is unclear how many J-10's its maker, China Aviation Industry Corporation I, the country's most important aircraft manufacturer, plans to deliver to the air force.
Small numbers of single-seat and two-seat versions of the new fighter are already operational and some experts believe up to 300 could soon be produced to supplement the high-performance, Russian-designed Sukhoi Su-27 and Su-30MK aircraft already in service with the Chinese Air Force.

There has been some speculation that the production run could be expanded if the J-10, which is expected to be much cheaper than an F-16, can win export orders from countries unable to pay for expensive Western aircraft.

Prices of fighters vary sharply depending on capability but Chile is paying $60 million each for 10 F-16's it has on order from the United States. Fisher estimates a J-10 could sell for $25 million to $40 million.

The U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency forecasts that up to 1,200 of these aircraft could eventually be built, according to the Pentagon report on the Chinese military.

The publicity surrounding the new aircraft — including interviews with the leading designers — appeared to be aimed at fostering a sense of national pride in the achievements of the domestic defense industry.

For most of the period when the J-10 was under development, the Western arms embargo imposed after the 1989 Tiananmen crackdown meant that China was denied access to American and European aviation technology.

However, while acknowledging the technical advances China has made over that period, most experts believe the J-10 has relied heavily on technology transferred from Israel's aborted Lavi fighter project.

Prototypes of the Lavi, which was similar in capability to the F-16, had performed well in tests but Israel canceled the project in the late 1980s after the United States withdrew financial support.

Elements of its design are evident in the size and shape of the new Chinese fighter.
Fisher and other experts suggest that Israel also supplied the so-called fly- by-wire computer software that controls the aircraft in flight.

And technical difficulties that have long dogged Chinese efforts to build high-performance military jet engines forced the manufacturer to import Russian turbofan engines to power the J-10.

Locally produced engines could soon be available for the J-10 and other Chinese military aircraft, according to some analysts.

Lin, of the Foundation on International and Cross-Strait Studies in Taiwan, and some other military experts believe this combination of borrowed and adapted technology could detract from the J-10's operational performance, at least in the short term.
"This is a potpourri of parts from different countries," Lin said. "Naturally, there will be some limits to its capability. I suspect there is still room for improvement."
 
Hi,

It is an old habbit of the americans of exagerrating the performance of the russian and chinese equipment. One reason is to get more funding from congress for defence projects---second is to keep their pilots on their toes and get them prepared for the worst case scenarios, third is to keep the enemy in a comfort zone so that they believe that their product is indeed deadly and extremely competitive with the american euipment.

Comparison of the j 10 with the Eurofighter and Rafael is not correct. Both the later fighter are flying for a while specially the rafael and the info that has come out shows Rafael to be an extremely potent machine. About the j 10, everything is still a part of the rumour mill. It may come out to be a great plane, but it may not be in the same league as the rafael for now---things will change in the years to come.
 
Hi,

It is an old habbit of the americans of exagerrating the performance of the russian and chinese equipment. One reason is to get more funding from congress for defence projects---second is to keep their pilots on their toes and get them prepared for the worst case scenarios, third is to keep the enemy in a comfort zone so that they believe that their product is indeed deadly and extremely competitive with the american euipment.

Comparison of the j 10 with the Eurofighter and Rafael is not correct. Both the later fighter are flying for a while specially the rafael and the info that has come out shows Rafael to be an extremely potent machine. About the j 10, everything is still a part of the rumour mill. It may come out to be a great plane, but it may not be in the same league as the rafael for now---things will change in the years to come.

SO it means that the J-10 is not that much capable as we suppose it ?
 
SO it means that the J-10 is not that much capable as we suppose it ?

We dont suppose anything. We know that J-10 is a capable jet and with the passage of time it will only get better but at this stage, it would be unfair to compare the J-10 with Rafale and EF yet alone the F-22.
 
We dont suppose anything. We know that J-10 is a capable jet and with the passage of time it will only get better but at this stage, it would be unfair to compare the J-10 with Rafale and EF yet alone the F-22.

Actually the just-roll-out J-10B is said to be comparable as Rafale in terms of avionics.
 
Ahussain,

I am just trying to share the american media campaign, how they try to manipulate and exagerrate the performance of the russians and chinese equipment for their own benefits.

The reasoning behind it is to create ' respect and fear ' for the enemy and his machine. The reason for 'respect' is to be prepared for the unexpected and not to let your guards down---the 'fear'is for other reasons---it is stated that if you want to conquer the mountain top, you got to prepare for the mountain slope, you got to fear what the mountain slope will throw at you to fail and lose your life---the fear will make you prepare and train hard and you will be ready for all the obstacles that you will come across---the fear of loss will make you work harder at your job.

Now coming back to the J 10---it is a very potent platform---on a scale of 1---10 where you place a rafael and a eurofighter at 10, the j 10 would be around 8.5. Are they in the same league---absolutely---then how do you differentiate their performances---by open mindset pilot training, quick thinking form the seat of your pants, being prepared and anticipating the unexpected, knowing the limits of your machine but more so knowing the maximus of the opponents machine in combat, electronic equipment package and weaponery, mission planning and training---training---training and quick thinking and quick reaction time under actual threat scenario and remembering your training and what you were taught to do when you hear the actual missile lock and missile launch warning on your threat radar screen.

A better trained and thinking pilot will make up for the minimal gap in technology---.
 
at it's current state J-10 is not that far behind the EF-2000, if you disregard the usage of composites. Keep in mind, the J-10 is based of Israeli LAVI fighter or it would be better to say Israeli technology.

It's highly maneuverable(JF-17 is also) and is on the path to becoming a more matured fighter. PAF pilots will have a lot of fun on this baby, believe me.

there is no reason to think that chinese avionics are behind western avionics, rather chinese technology is based on western designs. Keep in mind, they have western sources that they've tapped into. It's just that the PAF does not like how the Chinese radars function; tracking of targets, look down, etc.

as for quality of chinese products, i think it's sheer arrogance how westerners disregard chinese technology. sure, other nations have had problems with their products, but it really comes down to training. The PAF, for example, was able to shoot down supersonic Mig-21's with its subsonic F-6.
 
at it's current state J-10 is not that far behind the EF-2000, if you disregard the usage of composites. Keep in mind, the J-10 is based of Israeli LAVI fighter or it would be better to say Israeli technology.

It's highly maneuverable(JF-17 is also) and is on the path to becoming a more matured fighter. PAF pilots will have a lot of fun on this baby, believe me.

there is no reason to think that chinese avionics are behind western avionics, rather chinese technology is based on western designs. Keep in mind, they have western sources that they've tapped into. It's just that the PAF does not like how the Chinese radars function; tracking of targets, look down, etc.

as for quality of chinese products, i think it's sheer arrogance how westerners disregard chinese technology. sure, other nations have had problems with their products, but it really comes down to training. The PAF, for example, was able to shoot down supersonic Mig-21's with its subsonic F-6.

You see this is the problem I have with some posters. And their tendency to stick their head in the sand.

If a country is lagging behind in it's designs then it is BEHIND! China is catching up but still does not spend a fraction of what western companies/governments spend on R&D. Noticed how the PA and PAF is sticking a lot of WESTERN equipment into their planes and tanks? Hell the Russians haven't even got their 5th gen aircraft up yet and the Chinese are still buying from them.

Training is great but if it was the be all and end all of the situation then the PAF would still be flying bi-planes and relying upon skill.
 
Actually the just-roll-out J-10B is said to be comparable as Rafale in terms of avionics.

Nothing is more pleasing to hear then this, however i would still ask you to back your claim with some authentic source.

Regards

IceCold
 
Nothing is more pleasing to hear then this, however i would still ask you to back your claim with some authentic source.

Regards

IceCold

I'd love to offer a news link or something, but that's not how you get latest Chinese military progress. Take the declassification of J-10 for example, the official news came some 3 years after the fighter went into small-batch production. So mostly you go to Chinese military forum and chat with diff. ppl, and the credibility of the rumors is judged by the poster's reputation and connection. I got this J-10B's info from a very authoritative figure online regarding Chinese politico-military news, and his ID is 当铺. So I just take his words, and they often turn out to be true, unfortunately the official conformation usually comes after a long time. :hitwall:
 
Sukhoi piracy: Russia threatens to sue China-Europe-World-The Times of India

MOSCOW: Russia has threatened to sue China for copying its Sukhoi Su-27SK fighters and its pirate production
for export to Pakistan and other Third World countries at much cheaper prices, a leading Russian daily reported
on Tuesday.

"Russia has officially notified China that the production of J11 (fighters), a copy of Russian Su-27SK, violates inter-governmental agreements. Moscow has vowed to launch legal procedures for the protection of its intellectual property," Nezavisimaya Gazeta said.

Under the 1996 agreement, China had the right to assemble 200 Su-27SK fighters under the local brand J11. However, after receiving 95 kits and 180 AL31F engines, Beijing in November 2004 notified Moscow that it no more needs Russian kits for the assembly of Su-27 fighters, saying that combat capabilities of the fighter were very limited and further action would be taken after analysis of production experience by Chinese experts, the paper said.

"It seems the analysis was successful, as in the beginning of 2007, China unveiled its 'development' — J11B fighter, suspiciously reminding of Su-27," the daily reported.

Now, Moscow seems to have completely stopped the deliveries of engines. The onboard Zhuk radar is one of the problem modules for China as from the very beginning it was supplied with limited combat capabilities, the report said.

"What irks Moscow most is that the 1996 agreement did not allow the re-export of J11 to third countries, but now Beijing is busy in the search for the markets of this fighter.

First in the queue is Pakistan," it said, adding China plans to build 5,000 J11B fighters. Given their cheap price, J11B fighters may wipe out not only Su-27, but also MiG-29 and US F-16 from the Third World markets.
 

Ohh please give up on anti chinese campaign for god sake. This isnt even the thread for an article about SU-27.So quit your trolling dude.:angry:
This article is BS, why because first of all Pakistan was never interested in twin engine jets and that includes the J-11b. Pakistan has always been interested in the J-10 and not the J-11.
J-11 was a licence version of the Su-27 but J-11b falls into an altogether different class. It heavily incooperates domestice parts and the new domestic engine has also been aproved for the twin engine J-11B.
So imo it would be an insult to call it a russian jet, coz its not.
 
we Chinese now is developping F-13 and F-14 in two different aircraft plants in Chendu and Shengyang.i believe that maybe after 2 years the experience flight will come out.coz of the serious situation that China confronts is too cruel and hot. we must devote ourselves to the development of our country. the fourth generation flight is our dream in upcoming 10 years.
 
we Chinese now is developping F-13 and F-14 in two different aircraft plants in Chendu and Shengyang.i believe that maybe after 2 years the experience flight will come out.coz of the serious situation that China confronts is too cruel and hot. we must devote ourselves to the development of our country. the fourth generation flight is our dream in upcoming 10 years.

You mean 5th Gen. under Russia/US classification right? I think Chengdu will win the design proposal, but both will produce the plane together, cuz stealth fighter is a huge project and all resources of Chinese aviation industry must be utilized. :cheers:
 

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