Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[IceCold]

Just look at it for a few seconds .......without taking your eyes off.

Now you know....what J-10 is about.

Come on man! you posted it like its a F-22 raptor. The only difference at this stage between JF-17 and J-10 is of the payload. Its a heavy bomber/fighter carring more payload then that of the JF-17. Other then that the differences are minor as far as avonics are concerned but the way JF-17 is going and according to the AC, PAF is already trying to increase the payload by increasing the number of hard points from 7 to 9. Also with the help of in flight refueling the range will also be extended.

As for the avonics, well there too J-10 doesnt exceed the margin by miles and since PAF is already looking for a new radar possibly an AESA radar so by the time an AESA radar will be made available for J-10, its very likely that JF-17 will also have the same.

Besides lets not forget that the F-16 block52 that we are getting is more advance then the chinese J-10, so IMO there is no point for going for a less capable jet when we have the option to get more of these jets. However we should only exercise the option for J-10 if and only if the F-16s get sactioned otherwise it will be a waiste of resources.

Also we shouldnt forget that the jets of 21st century will have a whole new breed of capabilities that the J-10 misses for instance

1) AESA radar
2) Super cruise
3) TVC
4) Stealth

So far none of these capabilities are with the PAF. Even if the stealth and TVC are removed from the equation, the ability to super cruise and an AESA radar is a must and we should focus are ability to induct these rather going for something which isnt even surpassing the F-16s that we will get inshallah.

In the end i would say we need to focus on the JF-17 and the F-16s and we need to exercise the option for the 18 more of these birds and then spare our resources for something like the EF or Rafale which will make PAF into a ROBUST force of the 21st century.

 

[blain2]

Blain2
Do you know what PAFs requirements for J10 are ?. As far as I can recall, there are questions about AESA radar, Indegenous engine, and avionics. But these are only guesses. Does anybody have any concrete idea about what specs PAF wants J10 to have.
Help would be appreciated
Araz

Araz,

I would be lying if I told you what these exact, specific mods really are...I do know that PAF has specific things that they want to see on the aircraft and really, really like the aircraft because of its potential

 

[blain2]

Why can't PAF stick only with multirole JF-17 and spend all the available resources to increase their numbers first as much possible.
I trust JF-17 is as gutsy as J-10. I'm also sure that its quality and potency will add further in the process of production and till 2010 we will have a JF-17 which would be better than today's J-10.

Range, Payload, hardpoints etc. are all much better on the J-10 than JF-17. JF-17 is a light MR aircraft in Gripen/Tejas (much to the consternation of our Indian friends class. J-10 with appropriate avionics and weapons suite allows PAF a tremendous boost in its MR capability. JF-17 is good, however instead of spending more money on it and making it more expensive, it would come with a decent package of weapons and avionics and provide the replacement for the older airframes in large numbers.

The J-10 as inducted by the PAF would not be the same as the Chinese variant..as always if available, western avionics would be integrated by the PAF and potentially even western armaments (after going through the process of doing the same on the JF-17, I would think this would be an easier task).

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

J-10 might enter service in the PAF by 2009 or 2010, there is already a committee set up to handle the deal as the articles mention. Insha'Allah by then China should have an AESA radar ready for the J-10, what I'm hoping for is TVC, but that's not that big of a deal.

 

[blain2]

J-10 might enter service in the PAF by 2009 or 2010, there is already a committee set up to handle the deal as the articles mention. Insha'Allah by then China should have an AESA radar ready for the J-10, what I'm hoping for is TVC, but that's not that big of a deal.

TVC is not the end of it all. I think a very good EW/ECM suit, good stand-off weaponry and a decent radar are the combo that PAF should focus on. Keep in mind that TVC brings in additional maintenance and support headaches and with BVR/WVR weaponry constantly improving, the survival of the aircraft with fancy maneuvers becomes harder (the machines are able to do awesome things, but are limited by what a human body can take).

 

[araz]

Araz,

I would be lying if I told you what these exact, specific mods really are...I do know that PAF has specific things that they want to see on the aircraft and really, really like the aircraft because of its potential

Thank you for your reponse. i understand.
Araz

 

[BATMAN]

Range, Payload, hardpoints etc. are all much better on the J-10 than JF-17. JF-17 is a light MR aircraft in Gripen/Tejas (much to the consternation of our Indian friends class. J-10 with appropriate avionics and weapons suite allows PAF a tremendous boost in its MR capability. JF-17 is good, however instead of spending more money on it and making it more expensive, it would come with a decent package of weapons and avionics and provide the replacement for the older airframes in large numbers.

The J-10 as inducted by the PAF would not be the same as the Chinese variant..as always if available, western avionics would be integrated by the PAF and potentially even western armaments (after going through the process of doing the same on the JF-17, I would think this would be an easier task).

Thanks for the information, I was just looking from the point of priorities.
In my opinion PAF should attempt to get rid of its ageing fleet first and full induction and integration of JF-17. Later things can be re-evaluated from the fresh perspectives.
Having said that I still welcome any improvement.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

In my opinion PAF should attempt to get rid of its ageing fleet first and full induction and integration of JF-17.

yea, things are starting to look good for the PAF. I still think PAF should consider starting another joint venture with china immediately, but perhaps on something that includes stealth. of course pakistan and turkey have already given that thought.
we haven't had anything in a while, our neighbor had the best tech and BVR missiles. that was the lost decade for the PAF because we relied sources that would dump us in hour of need. now, alhamdulillah, we will make our own and hopefully will never have to look up to any nation again.

 

[Quwa]

yea, things are starting to look good for the PAF. I still think PAF should consider starting another joint venture with china immediately, but perhaps on something that includes stealth. of course pakistan and turkey have already given that thought.
we haven't had anything in a while, our neighbor had the best tech and BVR missiles. that was the lost decade for the PAF because we relied sources that would dump us in hour of need. now, alhamdulillah, we will make our own and hopefully will never have to look up to any nation again.

Based on pshamim's posts, there is enough to suggest that PAF is at least studying the feasibility of funding & developing a stealth fighter. First we need to consider that it is an eventuality, it will happen ultimately.

Second the issue is not if, but rather when PAF would initiate a project...JF-17 has set the precedent, the stealth fighter will be manufactured in Pakistan. It will probably see more Pakistani input...the idea of "joint-venture" will likely be seen in smaller stand-alone projects that all lead to the big bird. Hence the cooperation with Turkey, South Africa & Ukraine in a diverse range of areas.

Third we need to admit that the PAF caught up very fast and effeciently...it is set to induct 4-4.5+ generation fighters in mass at the same time as IAF, KSAF & other equivalents across the world. If IAF has already signed onto a 5th generation fighter, then it should mean PAF has a team working on formulating a plan. I do not think major concerns will include hardware, material or suppliers in general...but rather the technical issues of design, testing and finances.

However...the idea of "joint-development" might be more multilateral as the nature of the project will be felt by not only Pakistan...but also Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Algeria - possibly Turkey, South Africa & Brazil as well. In this case Pakistan has much more flexibility as the project would not only have access to a diverse range of expertise - but very large base of funds.

This is my take based on basic media reporting of JF-17...

1) PAF & Pakistani R&D are studying preliminary conceptual designs from CAC and SAC which were dropped in favour for the J-14 design. Like the JF-17...chances are that the "team" would look at incorporating widely used designs, i.e. something resembling F/A-22. The Sukhoi T-50 and most of the stealth fighters out there are using the F/A-22 concept.

2) PAF/Pak-R&D with CAC/SAC would jointly design a basic concept outlining the performance parameters; materials; key hardware; key capabilities such as internal payload, TVC, etc. We may see more of a "localization" in terms of capability to use coal-based synthetic jet-fuel, etc - as this may become a part of Pakistani resource production in the future.

3) The design will be unveiled, PAC & CAC/SAC would sign an MoU to develop it in 2010-2011...Pakistan would release first phase of funds. At this point we would hope for further participation from Saudi Arabia - as at this point - has no direct access to a 5th generation fighter. Next we may see participation from Malaysia, Algeria, Turkey and Brazil - all of whom seek to become key regional powers. Not sure about South Africa...but it could go either way with them...but contracted support may be seen from South Africa, South Korea, France, etc in very specific areas.

4) The partners would have varying levels of participation and input. One might expect extensive composite & airframe experience from Brazil & China. Sensor fusion, integration, etc, experience from Turkey & Pakistan. Multiple smaller projects relating to the aircraft through work from Malaysian, Saudi, Algerian and small firms from all walks.

5) Engine would probably be Chinese...manufacturing plants would be set up in the participating countries wishing to produce the aircraft. Not sure if we would see standardization of avionics, ECM/EW, radar, weapon-systems, etc...chances are all will do their own thing in this regard.

6) Production starting at around 2020-2022...PAF replacing first 50 JF-17 & 60 F-16A/B MLU by early 2030s. Hopefully they would call it the ITF-24 "Saker" or "Aquila" - ITF standing for "Intercontinental Fighter" I think 2020 could be a very interesting year...the 5th generation Al Khalid-2 MBT; maybe reveal the design for a new SSK and FFG, etc...call it the start of the new Golden Era.

 

[Proud to be Pakistani]

I would only say very futuristic!

But i will love to see it Happen!

 

[IceCold]

Based on pshamim's posts, there is enough to suggest that PAF is at least studying the feasibility of funding & developing a stealth fighter. First we need to consider that it is an eventuality, it will happen ultimately.

Second the issue is not if, but rather when PAF would initiate a project...JF-17 has set the precedent, the stealth fighter will be manufactured in Pakistan. It will probably see more Pakistani input...the idea of "joint-venture" will likely be seen in smaller stand-alone projects that all lead to the big bird. Hence the cooperation with Turkey, South Africa & Ukraine in a diverse range of areas.

Third we need to admit that the PAF caught up very fast and effeciently...it is set to induct 4-4.5+ generation fighters in mass at the same time as IAF, KSAF & other equivalents across the world. If IAF has already signed onto a 5th generation fighter, then it should mean PAF has a team working on formulating a plan. I do not think major concerns will include hardware, material or suppliers in general...but rather the technical issues of design, testing and finances.

However...the idea of "joint-development" might be more multilateral as the nature of the project will be felt by not only Pakistan...but also Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Algeria - possibly Turkey, South Africa & Brazil as well. In this case Pakistan has much more flexibility as the project would not only have access to a diverse range of expertise - but very large base of funds.

This is my take based on basic media reporting of JF-17...

1) PAF & Pakistani R&D are studying preliminary conceptual designs from CAC and SAC which were dropped in favour for the J-14 design. Like the JF-17...chances are that the "team" would look at incorporating widely used designs, i.e. something resembling F/A-22. The Sukhoi T-50 and most of the stealth fighters out there are using the F/A-22 concept.

2) PAF/Pak-R&D with CAC/SAC would jointly design a basic concept outlining the performance parameters; materials; key hardware; key capabilities such as internal payload, TVC, etc. We may see more of a "localization" in terms of capability to use coal-based synthetic jet-fuel, etc - as this may become a part of Pakistani resource production in the future.

3) The design will be unveiled, PAC & CAC/SAC would sign an MoU to develop it in 2010-2011...Pakistan would release first phase of funds. At this point we would hope for further participation from Saudi Arabia - as at this point - has no direct access to a 5th generation fighter. Next we may see participation from Malaysia, Algeria, Turkey and Brazil - all of whom seek to become key regional powers. Not sure about South Africa...but it could go either way with them...but contracted support may be seen from South Africa, South Korea, France, etc in very specific areas.

4) The partners would have varying levels of participation and input. One might expect extensive composite & airframe experience from Brazil & China. Sensor fusion, integration, etc, experience from Turkey & Pakistan. Multiple smaller projects relating to the aircraft through work from Malaysian, Saudi, Algerian and small firms from all walks.

5) Engine would probably be Chinese...manufacturing plants would be set up in the participating countries wishing to produce the aircraft. Not sure if we would see standardization of avionics, ECM/EW, radar, weapon-systems, etc...chances are all will do their own thing in this regard.

6) Production starting at around 2020-2022...PAF replacing first 50 JF-17 & 60 F-16A/B MLU by early 2030s. Hopefully they would call it the ITF-24 "Saker" or "Aquila" - ITF standing for "Intercontinental Fighter" I think 2020 could be a very interesting year...the 5th generation Al Khalid-2 MBT; maybe reveal the design for a new SSK and FFG, etc...call it the start of the new Golden Era.

Well as much as its good to read it, i do have doubts about it one for the reason that too many countries are involved in it specially countires like SouthAfrica and Brazil. A simple pressure from the US could lead these countries to withdraw their efforts from the above mentioned jet.
As for turkey, well Turkey is already a partner in JSF, does it need to get involved in another fighter programe that remains doubtful. However we can see a possible joint venture between countires like pakistan, china, Malaysia, Ukraine and SA for funding of the programe.

 

[Quwa]

Well as much as its good to read it, i do have doubts about it one for the reason that too many countries are involved in it specially countires like SouthAfrica and Brazil. A simple pressure from the US could lead these countries to withdraw their efforts from the above mentioned jet.
As for turkey, well Turkey is already a partner in JSF, does it need to get involved in another fighter programe that remains doubtful. However we can see a possible joint venture between countires like pakistan, china, Malaysia, Ukraine and SA for funding of the programe.

I wasn't so sure about South Africa as a partner, but as a contracted supplier it is very possible. For Brazil...it is set to be one of the leading new industrialized states alongside China and India...it has a regional and strategic goal. Perhaps the U.S. could offer it the F-35...however the other fighter has its technological and financial merits. In the end it is up to Brazil...but do not discount them just like that.

As for Turkey...as good as F-35 is, do remember that Turkey wants to be a key regional player in the East-West link. How can it offer influence if its air force is already "half-hacked" by NATO? The F-35...everyone in Western Europe would know about it...it would just keep Turkey's AF half armed. The Turks are on a massive localization drive of their weapons...and unlike T-129, MITUP, MILGEM, TF-2000, TIHA UAV, etc...F-35 is not as closely attached nor fully exploitable by Turkey. If the Turks want to dash another T on a fighter and truly make it a real force...then they will need a better sense of stealth...F-35 does not offer that. Eventually they will need to replace their newer F-16s, and if they want to really want to compete with Western Europe...they ought to introduce a fighter none of them can crack.

 

[BATMAN]

Pair of Chinese fighter planes form PLAAF’s high-low mix
By David Donald

February 21, 2008

Aircraft
China’s march to overhaul its front-line fighter fleet is making good progress, thanks to two major indigenous production programs involving the Chengdu J-10 and Shenyang J-11 models. The Chengdu product is an all-Chinese design that is now entering service in numbers. The J-11 is a license-built Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker, which in its latest production version incorporates important Chinese components.

Together, the two types are providing the People’s Liberation Army Air Force (PLAAF) with a “high/low” fighter mix, akin to those employed by the U.S. (F-15/F-16) and Russia (Su-27/MiG-29). The advanced nature of both types signals China’s intentions to transform its air force from one in which sheer numbers could carry the day to one in which a much reduced number of aircraft can maintain the force’s effectiveness through technology.

Vigorous Dragon
Called the “Vigorous Dragon,” the J-10 program dates back to 1983, when China initiated a multi-role fighter competition after the failure of several other programs. The Chengdu, Nanchang and Shenyang organizations submitted proposals and the first of these was chosen.

For the J-10, Chengdu drew upon its earlier J-9 fighter design. It also took full advantage of the developments of various Western technologies that were acquired in the 1970s under the Peace Pearl program, and subsequently in deals with Israeli and European companies.

In June 1997, the prototype was rolled out, making its maiden flight on March 23 the following year. An initial prototype batch of nine or 10 aircraft was followed by at least six preproduction aircraft. Exactly five years after the first flight, the aircraft’s test campaign officially ended in 2003, and a week later the first aircraft were delivered to the Chinese air force’s Operational Trials Regiment at Cangzhou.

The first front-line user was the 131st Regiment of the 44th Air Division at Kunming, which received its first aircraft on July 13, 2004. Later that year initial operating capability was declared and deliveries have subsequently been made to additional regiments. After years of speculation and sightings, the existence of the aircraft was made public officially only on Dec. 29, 2006.

Production of the J-10A single-seater runs at around 24 to 36 units per year and the production run is expected to reach 300 to 500 units. Partnering with the single-seater is a fully combat-capable two-seater, variously reported as the J-10B, J-10S or J-10AS. The first of two two-seater prototypes flew on Dec. 26, 2003, and since then J-10AS production has been interspersed with single-seaters on the assembly line. Trials have been performed with a retractable refueling probe, although this feature has not yet been seen on operational aircraft.

J-11’s Flanker Pedigree
In 1992 the PLAAF received the first of an eventual 36 single-seat Su-27SK and 40 two-seat Su-27UBK fighters to re-equip key air defense units. Experience with the Flanker led to the type being adopted as the primary heavy fighter for the PLAAF. As a result, China went on not only to procure 100 Su-30MKKs and Su-30MKK2s for the fighter-bomber and maritime roles, but also to negotiate a license to assemble Su-27SK fighters at Shenyang.

In 1996 Sukhoi and Shenyang reached agreement to assemble 200 aircraft, initially from Russian KnAAPO-supplied kits followed by increasing local component manufacture. Designated J-11, the first was rolled out in 1998, although manufacturing problems led to a delay in full-scale production until 2000. Observers believe that 96 standard J-11s were produced by 2003.

The following year it was reported that production stopped at around 100 aircraft and that the J-11 no longer satisfied Chinese requirements. Under the terms of the original coproduction agreement there was no technological transfer for avionics or engines, and they had to be bought from Russia.

While production of the baseline J-11 was under way, Shenyang began work on an advanced version known as the J-11B, with Chinese engines and avionics. The locally developed WS-10A Taihang engine was tested in an Su-27SK and has been fitted to trial versions of the J-11B. The improved aircraft also has an indigenous radar housed in a new style radome and the type is compatible with a range of Chinese weapons. J-11Bs have undergone tests since 2003, while the radar was tested in a modified Shaanxi Y-8 (An-12).

Engine Issues
China’s desperate search for a successful modern fighter turbofan reaches back decades, with a string of failures. In the 1970s and 1980s, Western technology was acquired in the shape of the Rolls-Royce Spey and the CFM International CFM56. The latter is thought to have provided the starting point for what became the Shenyang WS-10 turbofan. This engine was intended to power the J-10, although development was so slow it became obvious that it would not be ready in time for the new fighter.

In the early 1990s the embattled WS-10 program gained breathing space thanks to the Sukhoi fighter deal, which provided access to the Salyut (Lyulka) AL-31F engine that powers the Su-27. Negotiations soon began to procure AL-31Fs for the J-10. The first few prototypes flew with development WS-10s, but subsequent aircraft have been powered by the Salyut AL-31FN–a modified version of the Flanker engine with gearbox relocated to underneath to match the J-10’s single-engine requirements.

There have been four orders for the AL-31FN, the first reportedly totaling between 10 and 50, while the three subsequent purchases cover 254 engines.

Meanwhile, WS-10 development continued, including an increase in thrust to produce the WS-10A Taihang. As the Chinese engine was seen as a potential alternative to the AL-31F, the dimensions were kept the same as the Russian powerplant. Flight tests began in 2002, with one engine replacing an AL-31F in a test Su-27SK. The model was certified in 2006.

It now appears that J-11 production will use the WS-10A, while for the foreseeable future the J-10A will retain the Salyut powerplant. However, it is a stated aim to fit the WS-10A in the J-10. This program has ramifications in the export market, as a Taihang-powered J-10 would be an “all-Chinese” fighter completely free of outside export restrictions.

Missile Ready
Both the J-10 and J-11B are adapted to carry the PL-12 active-radar air-to-air missile (equivalent to the U.S. AMRAAM), as well as earlier Chinese weapons such as the PL-8 (similar to Rafael Python 3) and the PL-11 (semi-active radar honing missile based on the Italian Aspide). Both types also have an impressive air-to-ground capability and are being developed to carry a range of precision weapons.

According to reports in the Chinese media, the J-10 and Flanker have met several times in mock combats, with the J-10 reportedly coming out on top in most engagements. This indicates not only its superior flight control system, but also highlights the capabilities of the aircraft’s indigenous avionics. However, the Flanker scores well in terms of range/load characteristics.

 

[JimmyJ]

The best option for Pakistan regarding 5th Gen should be to join the Chineese stealth project. There would be more understanding between the teams on the requirements.

One doubt will Pakistan go for a two engined or single engined 5th gen fighter. I mean taking into consideration that cross country flight across Pakistan won' take much time, will Pakistan be preferring a single engined craft..

For now if PAF is able to acquire J-10 and J-17 it should make the right mix along with the F-16 fleet.

 

[BATMAN]

^^ Any one can analyse that Pakistan military is a defensive army and so is its airforce. All our military build up is a result of various measures to counter the imminent aggression.
Following the same doctrine, so far PAF's inventory and development are of point defence nature.
Looking from the same angle, I suppose PAF will continue with single engine.
I also believe that going for twin engines have nothing to do with cross country over own country, infect twin engines are meant to carry offensive operations over foreign lands.
Twin engines are generally larger jets and lack the manuverability of single engine. Their prime role is bombing but now there are smaller twin engines jets which are multirole.
Again, it does not seem wise to spend money on such expensive multirole jets, when Pakistan always have to be on defending end.