Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[unicorn148]

yes they are but still to integrate it with the J10 will be a big task and the are new on the J10 platform so i don't think china will try to induct without testing the plane thoroughly and yes china hast nice record but still it will first induct the J10 b then only it will sell to Pakistan so lets see what will happen

 

[ejaz007]

Pakistan Buying Chinese J-10 Fighters
11-Nov-2009 22:11 EST

Pakistan and China have been cooperating for a number of years on the JF-17/ FC-1 Thunder, a low-medium performance, low-cost aircraft that has attracted interest and orders from a number of 3rd World air forces. In November 2009, a long-rumored deal was announced for China’s Jian-10/ FC-20 4+ generation fighter, whose overall performance compares well with the F-16C/D Block 52 aircraft that Pakistan has ordered from the United States.

The J-10 has been reported as a derivative of the 1980s Israeli Lavi project, and reportedly incorporates an Israeli fly-by-wire control base that was transferred in the project’s early years. The change in relations that followed the Tienanmen Square massacre hurt the J-10 project badly, however, forcing the replacement of planned Western avionics and engines with Chinese and Russian equipment. The required redesign was very extensive, affected all areas of the airframe, and took over a decade, amounting to the development of a new aircraft. The first operational J-10 unit entered service with the PLAAF in July 2004.

China has reportedly ordered 100 J-10s to date. The initial Pakistani order is for 2 squadrons, but could expand as technical cooperation and orders increase. The $1+ billion sale represents the J-10’s first export order… but almost certainly not its last.

Contracts and Key Events

Nov 11/09: Widespread reports surface that Pakistan has signed a $1.4 billion contract for 36 of CATIC’s Jian-10 fighters, which will be known as FC-20 in Pakistan. The deal is described as a preliminary agreement, and there are reports that Pakistan may eventually be interested in acquiring up to 150 of these aircraft. Retired Pakistani general Abdul Qayyum is qoted as saying that:

“The agreement should not simply be seen in the narrow context of Pakistan’s relations with China…. There is a wider dimension. By sharing its advanced technology with Pakistan, China is … also saying to the world that its defence capability is growing rapidly.”

The UK’s Financial Times echoes this theme, noting that the $21.7 billion Aviation Industry Corporation (AVIC) group is rapidly emerging as a big military goods exporter. The group is also involved in China’s civilian aircraft program, and gives only total revenue figures, but the Financial Times quotes industry sources who believe a recent remerger of 2 split-out groups late in 2008 was aimed at creating a bigger and internationally competitive player.

It is not clear whether Pakistan’s FC-20s will carry Russian Salyut AL-31FN turbofans (17,130/ 27,557 pounds dry/afterburner thrust) that are similar to the engines in many SU-27 family aircraft, or the larger Chinese WS-10A derivative (reportedly a lesser 16,523/ 24,729 pounds dry/afterburner thrust) developed by China’s AVIC Aviation Engine Institute and Shenyang Liming Aero-Engine Group. Pakistan’s Daily Times | IBN Live | Press Trust of India | Times of India | UK Financial Times.

March 7/09: The Associated Press of Pakistan reports that a contract for 42 co-produced JF-17/ FC-1 fighters has been signed in Islamabad by China’s CATIC and the Pakistani Air Force, financed by “seller’s credit.” Production capacity is listed at 15 aircraft in the first year, rising to 30 aircraft per year thereafter. Pakistan has been flying 8 aircraft to work out tactics, techniques, and procedures, and expects to stand up the first JF-17 squadron before the end of 2009. The aircraft will be based at Peshawar, alongside existing Chinese-made Q-5/A-5C “Fantan” fighters that are a hugely modified Chinese derivative of the MiG-19, and their accompanying JJ-6/FT-6 MiG-19 trainers.

The article adds a quote from Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed. He reiterates that cooperation on China’s canard-winged J-10/FC-20 is also progressing, with first deliveries to Pakistan expected in 2014-15. CATIC’s President MA Zhiping reportedly added that the first FC-20 aircraft built under that agreement would fly in 2009. APP | Pakistan’s The News.

March 29/07: Pakistan’s The News International references an interview that Air Chief Marshal Tanvir Mehmood Ahmed gves to Jane’s:

“On other important projects with China, the Pakistani air chief also revealed that Pakistan is well advanced in negotiations with China on the possible acquisition of up to 40 J-10 fighters which are the most advanced fighter aircrafts so far produced by China. Pakistan President General Pervez Musharraf was given a detailed briefing on the J-10 during his last visit to China.

“We are serious in our discussions and, as air chief, I look forward to getting this programme (of the J-10) to a stage where we can contract this. I am looking at two squadrons of aircraft, anywhere between 32 and 40 platforms,” said the Air chief.”


Pakistan Buying Chinese J-10 Fighters

 

[SBD-3]

PAF will be getting the J-10 in 2014-2015 time frame, 5 more years still to go and with 3rd prototype of J-10B in the air, hopefully we would be seeing a production variant next year, so if the production did start by next year or even by start of 2011, PAF would be getting the J-10B design as once it goes into production the earlier variant J-10A production will be stopped. So how things are moving we would be seeing J-10B design in PAF service.

For Chinese, Getting J-10B in production will not be a problem as they will have the freedom to use Russian engine. But for export, the engine concern is a considerable factor. Furthermore, as PAF will be integrating western Avionics in this bird. So creating a design and adaptable system will also require time

 

[SBD-3]

any plane to become a complete fighter it should be thoroughly tested the systems of J10 b are new so it will take time for the plane to start production

I have already said that it is not necessary that PAF would go for Chinese systems. I think PAF will surely use more mature western systems in the AC

 

[S10]

I am having a bit of doubt whether the J-10 being sold to Pak is the B version. As far as I'm concerned, J-10B only flew in April this year and has not been inducted into PLAAF yet. Assuming production starts next year, I don't know if CAC can fill Pak's order since they must first satisfy domestic demands first. Perhaps an upgraded variation of the J-10A is being sold here.

Either way, the main advantage of Pakistani J-10 is that it will not carry any political string normally associated with American or European products.

 

[SBD-3]

I am having a bit of doubt whether the J-10 being sold to Pak is the B version. As far as I'm concerned, J-10B only flew in April this year and has not been inducted into PLAAF yet. Assuming production starts next year, I don't know if CAC can fill Pak's order since they must first satisfy domestic demands first. Perhaps an upgraded variation of the J-10A is being sold here.

Either way, the main advantage of Pakistani J-10 is that it will not carry any political string normally associated with American or European products.

its 2009 ending........................we still have 5 years till we will see this AC is Pakistani Colours

 

[unicorn148]

its 2009 ending........................we still have 5 years till we will see this AC is Pakistani Colours

5 years is not enough to complete the entire testing and induction it may be possible of plaaf to induct the j10 B but to export these planes in 5 years will be very difficult because the engine will be russian engine because the ws-10a engine is not yet ready

 

[fatman17]

ASIA PACIFIC
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2009

Jane's Defence Weekly

China seals J-10 fighter sale to Pakistan

Farhan Bokhari JDW Correspondent - Islamabad

China has agreed to sell at least 36 of its CAC J-10 multirole fighter aircraft to Pakistan in a deal involving one of its most advanced weapon systems, according to senior Pakistani and Western defence officials.

News of the agreement came on 11 November while Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman, Chief of Staff of the Pakistan Air Force (PAF), was on a visit to China. A senior Western defence official based in Islamabad who closely tracks Sino-Pakistani military co-operation told Jane's : "The deal for the J-10 is finally together now."

According to the Western defence official, who declined to be named, China agreed to supply the batch of 36 J-10s (two squadrons) by 2012 or 2013, almost coinciding with the PAF's timeframe to induct up to 250 JF-17 'Thunder' fighter aircraft, built jointly by Pakistan and China. The two sides have also left open the possibility of a future agreement for the sale of more J-10s.

The timing of the J-10 deal is significant. The first JF-17 made in Pakistan is expected to be rolled out of the PAF-run Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) at Kamra, north of Islamabad, before the end of November.

Western defence analysts say the JF-17's airframe is produced at the PAC, while its avionics and weapon systems include some Chinese and Western systems. "This [the JF-17] will be a truly global aircraft, including specs from different sources," one Western defence official based in Islamabad told Jane's .

The deal for the 36 J-10s, which is expected to be worth at least USD1.4 billion, was described by the Western defence official "as part of evidence of growing evidence of sophistication in Pakistani-Chinese relations".

China has long been the main supplier of military hardware to Pakistan, although its weapon systems have traditionally been considered technically inferior to those from other sources, notably the United States.

Chinese equipment delivered during the 1980s included HAIC A-5 ground attack/strike and F-7 multirole fighters. During the same period the US was supplying Pakistan with 40 Lockheed Martin F-16 fighter aircraft, viewing Pakistan as a frontline state against the occupation of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union.

International defence analysts said China's co-operation with Pakistan in fighter aircraft manufacture also carries some benefits for Beijing's defence industrial complex.

"The Chinese defence industrial base has been increasingly forced to pay for itself and to find export markets," Bates Gill, head of the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI), told Jane's , referring to the emerging situation after the end of the Cold War that has left many suppliers struggling to find large new buyers. Gill said an arms agreement with Pakistan could benefit China's defence manufacturing capability as it provides scientists and weapon developers with continuing opportunities to undertake new projects.

 

[SBD-3]

5 years is not enough to complete the entire testing and induction it may be possible of plaaf to induct the j10 B but to export these planes in 5 years will be very difficult because the engine will be russian engine because the ws-10a engine is not yet ready

WS-10A is under testing not development.........and whith already third prototype in Air .......the production is not far away as you suggest

 

[S10]

5 years is not enough to complete the entire testing and induction it may be possible of plaaf to induct the j10 B but to export these planes in 5 years will be very difficult because the engine will be russian engine because the ws-10a engine is not yet ready

Correction: WS-10A engine is, or was, ready for production. However, the entire line was recalled when quality problems emerged last year. The design of the engine was not the problem, but quality control was crap at the manufacturing plant. Because of poor worker ethics, the initial batch of engine was of sub-par quality. It led to a crash of J-11B prototype. In short, WS-10A could be used at anytime, but at a cost of reduced engine lifespan and reliability. Thus, it is only used in twin-engine aircrafts like J-11, but on J-10.

WS-10A is under testing not development.........and whith already third prototype in Air .......the production is not far away as you suggest

Read my post above.

 

[mean_bird]

I am having a bit of doubt whether the J-10 being sold to Pak is the B version. As far as I'm concerned, J-10B only flew in April this year and has not been inducted into PLAAF yet. Assuming production starts next year, I don't know if CAC can fill Pak's order since they must first satisfy domestic demands first. Perhaps an upgraded variation of the J-10A is being sold here.

Either way, the main advantage of Pakistani J-10 is that it will not carry any political string normally associated with American or European products.

Unless you are assuming second hand (from PLAAF inventory) J-10A will be sold, it makes little sense.

J-10A and B are fairly identical and its very unlikely you will have two assembly lines making the A and B models. As long as the delivery dates are the original 2013-14, the same assembly line that can make the A model as also make the B model in the same amount of time. In other words, when they shift to the B model, no more A models will be produced.

The only exception is if the contract is signed for the A model either due to price or Chinese unwillingness to export the B model yet. Even then, its fairly possible to have the shape of the B model with differences in avionics/radar (which PAF has hinted it would like a western radar anyway).

Logistically, I do not see a problem because the same assembly will be converted to produce the B model.

 

[S10]

Unless you are assuming second hand (from PLAAF inventory) J-10A will be sold, it makes little sense.

J-10A and B are fairly identical and its very unlikely you will have two assembly lines making the A and B models. As long as the delivery dates are the original 2013-14, the same assembly line that can make the A model as also make the B model in the same amount of time. In other words, when they shift to the B model, no more A models will be produced.

The only exception is if the contract is signed for the A model either due to price or Chinese unwillingness to export the B model yet. Even then, its fairly possible to have the shape of the B model with differences in avionics/radar (which PAF has hinted it would like a western radar anyway).

Logistically, I do not see a problem because the same assembly will be converted to produce the B model.

If the delievery date is 2013-2014, I do not forsee Pakistan is getting the B version at all. Remember that J-10B has not finished testing as of this moment yet, and CAC must satisfy PLAAF's own demands first, which is at least over a hundred aircraft. It's safe to assume once production of J-10B starts somewhere next year, J-10A line will no longer continue as we've seen in J-11A lines when J-11B became available.

There is no political reason why Pakistan can't get the B model, as Pakistan has always obtained what it needed in the past from China in the past. China was introducing the J-10A at around 20 planes a year from 2004 onwards. Going by that rate, I don't know how Pakistan will get J-10B before 2015 unless production is drastically increased.

If Pakistan has to get J-10 between 2013 and 2014, there is a good chance it will be an upgraded A version.

 

[houshanghai]

PLAAF 60th anniversary J-10 air show

http://space.tv.cctv.com/video/VIDE1258256734350883

 

[Arsalan]

well the time frame projected is 2012-2013! i think it is a bit too optimistic if we actually do want to induct what we call the FC20 as it is reported to be a modification of J10 acording to PAF will, which accordingly will be made after the Indian MRCA winner in announced...
now this is a bit too fast.
other possibility that also seem to be the better choice will be that PAF go for J10B or even J10A in basic configration in nu,ber amountin to some 36 or so and get them ready by 2013 and then after excessive evaluation further place the order for more modified plane that will eventually be the FC20z!!!
what do you thin of it??

regards!

 

[SBD-3]

hay guys awesome video