Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee visits Baykar UAV facility in Turkey

[Indos]

Cooperation between Muslim countries should be enhanced, both Anka and Aksungur uses Indonesian wind tunnel facility during its development

 

[Indos]

Oh common... Indonesia already has been harrassed enough by a rag tag papnew nenui now China is harrassing you on a daily basis and your incapable. With such a large economy your air force, army, navy is almost incapable yet you come here to brag about "wind tunnels" the chinese here would laugh on you far more than pakistani cuz they are so ignorant and into the number of medals their fake generals were.

What is papnew nenui ???

I just said cooperation between Muslim countries should be enhanced and Turkey has used Indonesian wind tunnel for their ANKA since 2008 until latest report from their own media in 2018.

TAI perkuat kerja sama pengujian UAV dengan BPPT

Kerja sama dimulai pada saat pengembangan program pesawat terbang tanpa awak (unmanned aircraft vehicle/UAV) ANKA tahun 2008 - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

 

[T-SaGe]

Isn't the guy behind Baykar industries Erdoğan's son in law?? There was some controversy about that or just western propaganda?

Selçuk Bayraktar has a brilliant academic career. He completed his second master's degree at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with a scholarship on the aggressive maneuver control of unmanned aerial vehicles. During this period, he worked as an assistant to Professor George Pappas and Professor Eric Feron. He conducted scientific studies on UAV formation flight experiments, ground, and air coordinated robot teams, flight control, and guidance systems, which were carried out for the first time in the world. He returned to Turkey in 2007 and became the technical manager of Baykar Defense.

But, Baykar Makina has been developing its expertise on UAV systems for about 20 years. Since 2004, it has been carrying out these development activities directly within the Turkish armed force. Selçuk and Haluk brothers were worked in the field together with military personnel, during the years when the fight against terrorism was intense. In other words, they continued to develop their systems directly in the operational environment. He played a leading role in the development of flight control, avionic system architecture, navigation algorithms, system kinematics and dynamics, embedded software development, and electronic hardware development of unmanned aerial vehicles during his Baykar career.

Selçuk Bayraktar married with Sümeyye Erdoğan (Erdoğan's daughter) in 2016. In short, yes, he is Erdogan's son-in-law, but Baykar Makina is a 40-year-old company that started working on UAV before Erdogan came to power. It's not a widely known topic, but 20012-2015 were very difficult years for Baykar Makina and there were even a number of bureaucratic problems. The acceptance tests of the first tactical system were quite painful. The political climate in Turkey after 2016 is a completely different discussion. If you have an intellectual interest, we can discuss it on a separate topic.

In terms of realpolitik; After 2016, Baykar Makine entered a much more comprehensive development trend without getting caught in bureaucratic obstacles.

Long story short, this is so prominent that there are frequent debates in Turkish defense forums about "TAI UAV system development activities are pushed into the background due to Baykar." While there are some developments that support these arguments(press attention, TB-2 order numbers, giving the Akıncı project to Baykar, etc.), It often a daily political dispute which aimed to politicize and eroded the company.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Selçuk Bayraktar has a brilliant academic career. He completed his second master's degree at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with a scholarship on the aggressive maneuver control of unmanned aerial vehicles. During this period, he worked as an assistant to Professor George Pappas and Professor Eric Feron. He conducted scientific studies on UAV formation flight experiments, ground, and air coordinated robot teams, flight control, and guidance systems, which were carried out for the first time in the world. He returned to Turkey in 2007 and became the technical manager of Baykar Defense.

But, Baykar Makina has been developing its expertise on UAV systems for about 20 years. Since 2004, it has been carrying out these development activities directly within the Turkish armed force. Selçuk and Haluk brothers were worked in the field together with military personnel, during the years when the fight against terrorism was intense. In other words, they continued to develop their systems directly in the operational environment. He played a leading role in the development of flight control, avionic system architecture, navigation algorithms, system kinematics and dynamics, embedded software development, and electronic hardware development of unmanned aerial vehicles during his Baykar career.

Selçuk Bayraktar married with Sümeyye Erdoğan (Erdoğan's daughter) in 2016. In short, yes, he is Erdogan's son-in-law, but Baykar Makina is a 40-year-old company that started working on UAV before Erdogan came to power. It's not a widely known topic, but 20012-2015 were very difficult years for Baykar Machine and there were even a number of bureaucratic problems. The acceptance tests of the first tactical system were quite painful. The political climate in Turkey after 2016 is a completely different discussion. If you have an intellectual interest, we can discuss it on a separate topic.

In terms of realpolitik; After 2016, Baykar Makine entered a much more comprehensive development trend without getting caught in bureaucratic obstacles.

Long story short, this is so prominent that there are frequent debates in Turkish defense forums about "TAI UAV system development activities are pushed into the background due to Baykar." While there are some developments that support these arguments(press attention, TB-2 order numbers, giving the Akıncı project to Baykar, etc.), It often a daily political dispute which aimed to politicize and eroded the company.

Oh yeah bro I understand very clearly the internal dynamics of Turkish politics. The hardcore secular folks vs people who want reasonable balance between Islam secularism. Which is often turned into AKP/Erdoğan vs CHP/other Left Wing parties etc. Where Erdoğan is sheytan for the left wing lmao .

That's a different topic all together yes.

 

[CIA Mole]

the gap between the west and the rest of the world is narrowing quickly

 

[Falcon26]

Oh common... Indonesia already has been harrassed enough by a rag tag papnew nenui now China is harrassing you on a daily basis and your incapable. With such a large economy your air force, army, navy is almost incapable yet you come here to brag about "wind tunnels" the chinese here would laugh on you far more than pakistani cuz they are so ignorant and into the number of medals their fake generals were.

Was this comment necessary? What has @Indos said that warrants such garbage vitriol from you? @waz @The Eagle please delete the above post. It’s intentional attempt to start a flame war.

 

[Itachi]

Pakistan in 2016: "Everything in Turkey's actually Western origin. No point in working with them on anything. And no one cares about South African stuff."

Pakistan in 2021: "Can we buy Turkish drones and Emirati-South African mini-drones?"

Honestly, what a nation. We literally could have co-developed this stuff from them and not ask this question, "can we buy?"

When you're ruled by a bunch of servile, closed loop thinking, coconuts.....brown on the outside, white on the inside.

 

[Indos]

I don't give our decision-makers enough credit to have trust deficits with anyone -- for a country that repeatedly asks for US equipment, I doubt there's a 'trust deficit' issue.

Rather, it has more to do with a very limited vision and a penchant to constantly defer to big suppliers in the West and China.

In fact, even if we start buying lots of Turkish gear now, we are still missing "the point."

The point wasn't to buy from Turkey (or Ukraine or South Africa), but to co-develop weapons and critical inputs (e.g., engines) with those countries.

The point was to make the TAI Anka the TAI-PAC Anka, or the TAI ATAK-2 into the TAI-PAC ATAK-2, not to buy the Anka or ATAK-2. Yes, I understand we have a limited budget, but shipping that money out to some other country and then perpetually rely on that country for supplies (and ship out even more USD) is not a solution. The solution is to redirect that wealth (however limited) to domestic solutions.

Now, I'm sure our generals will say, "well our bloody civilians don't know how to make anything," and I'm sure our engineers will say, "our bloody generals don't know anything."

Fair, but we should undergo that argument, in the open. Too bad we don't have policy people to facilitate that exchange and to line up the facts and arguments from both sides to come up with the best solution.

I would suggest structural changes, PAK should put defense companies under civilian rule (SOE ministry) rather than Armed Force. Imran Khan should also be blamed, as a leader why he doesnt use his power to intervene in the military procurement and military program.

Indonesia for example seen as not buying anything during Jokowi administration, it is because he focuses the budget to buy what the local industry can make like ships, rifle, and others. It will be likely a disaster if we let Armed force decide which weapons they are going to buy. Just recent news reveal our Armed Force wanting to buy 36 Rafale and 36 F 15 EX, but the government only approve 1.6 billion USD for new fighters and it is still under assessment.

There should be law prohibiting foreign equipment to be bought when local supplier can make similar equipment. PAK decision to buy China VT 4 tanks instead of upgraded Alkhalid shows that you need the law to be made as soon as possible.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Yeah but they're developing the engines as we speak, so in 3-5 years even those won't be an issue. Hilariously, the Turks are working with Ukraine on UAV engines. Ukraine is the other country which wanted to work with us on aerospace, but our heads were up Russia's rear that time (God knows why).

I was basically the only person saying in 2016 that we should work with Turkey, South Africa and Ukraine. We Pakistanis would sell the cave without checking if it's a salt mine first, and then complain why others were selling our salt.

When you have dimwits as political leaders, and men without vision in military leadership that's what happens.

Pakistani military for years knew deep cooperation between India and Israel and how Israel not only arming India to the teeth but also providing other help regarding Kashmir. But they decided to close their eyes. They also knew for years where USA is leaning but ignored it without doing much planning for the future.

Now they are trying to play the catching game. This didn't happen overnight.

When you talks to Pakistanis, first impression you get is that you are talking to "clever" good for nothing people, who would talk big, but do or deliver very little.
Making excuses is Pakistanis favourite pass time. You be lucky to hear a grain of truth from them.

Those who didn't learn to clean their streets in 70 years, what do we expect from them!!
Despite horrible conditions , the clever cookies shout the slogans "Hum Pakistan ko taraqi de rahee the".
No one in the corrupt press ask them, where is that "Taraqi"!!! Did you fold it and taken it with you!!!

Liars at every level in Pakistan.

I can not forget the night of OBL raid , listening to then PAF head on one of the channel , I shock my head in disbelief and said to myself that if this coward made it to the position of "Air Chief Marshal" there is not much hope for Pakistan.
If he was in any other country , he would have gone the minute he made such cowardly statement.

 

[zeeshe100]

Yeh toh baykar nahe lag rahi [emoji23][emoji1787]

 

[kursed]

I would suggest structural changes, PAK should put defense companies under civilian rule (SOE ministry) rather than Armed Force. Imran Khan should also be blamed, as a leader why he doesnt use his power to intervene in the military procurement and military program.

Indonesia for example seen as not buying anything during Jokowi administration, it is because he focuses the budget to buy what the local industry can make like ships, rifle, and others. It will be likely a disaster if we let Armed force decide which weapons they are going to buy. Just recent news reveal our Armed Force wanting to buy 36 Rafale and 36 F 15 EX, but the government only approve 1.6 billion USD for new fighters and it is still under assessment.

There should be law prohibiting foreign equipment to be bought when local supplier can make similar equipment. PAK decision to buy China VT 4 tanks instead of upgraded Alkhalid shows that you need the law to be made as soon as possible.

Given Pakistani history, that's just not possible.

 

[Globalwarrior]

I think the Paliatani forces really messed up on the drone development. Had they started this in the early 2000s we would have been ahaed of the others. Turkish Airlines has a documentary on this development on the drone development documentary and it shows a lot of the young engineers. Not sure why young Pakistani engineers cannot be employed in such a company that develops these products.
Pakistani

 

[Shabi1]

Pakistan in 2016: "Everything in Turkey's actually Western origin. No point in working with them on anything. And no one cares about South African stuff."

Pakistan in 2021: "Can we buy Turkish drones and Emirati-South African mini-drones?"

Honestly, what a nation. We literally could have co-developed this stuff from them and not ask this question, "can we buy?"

I seriously doubt Pakistan will buy Turkish drones as it would be killing our local efforts which have progressed really far, its too late to buy something off the shelf now. What PAF is doing is probably what it did with Saab Gripen, we evaluated it like a buyer and incorporated its features onto our own product. What we will probably do is get some sub systems/software or munitions from them. Turkish drones have worked well in Azerbaijan conflict so worth studying them as force multipliers.

 

[araz]

I don't give our decision-makers enough credit to have trust deficits with anyone -- for a country that repeatedly asks for US equipment, I doubt there's a 'trust deficit' issue.

Rather, it has more to do with a very limited vision and a penchant to constantly defer to big suppliers in the West and China.

In fact, even if we start buying lots of Turkish gear now, we are still missing "the point."

The point wasn't to buy from Turkey (or Ukraine or South Africa), but to co-develop weapons and critical inputs (e.g., engines) with those countries.

The point was to make the TAI Anka the TAI-PAC Anka, or the TAI ATAK-2 into the TAI-PAC ATAK-2, not to buy the Anka or ATAK-2. Yes, I understand we have a limited budget, but shipping that money out to some other country and then perpetually rely on that country for supplies (and ship out even more USD) is not a solution. The solution is to redirect that wealth (however limited) to domestic solutions.

Now, I'm sure our generals will say, "well our bloody civilians don't know how to make anything," and I'm sure our engineers will say, "our bloody generals don't know anything."

Fair, but we should undergo that argument, in the open. Too bad we don't have policy people to facilitate that exchange and to line up the facts and arguments from both sides to come up with the best solution.

Before I pen these thought please allow me to say that my thoughts are not directed at ANYONE but the gist of the posts that are doing the rounds.
With a few exceptions none of us know what has actually gone on in our defence acquisitions and the thoughts behind it. Those who do keep their mouths tightly shut for fear of betraying Pakistan. There have been instances of people on fora being cpurt martialled abd sent home for a loose off the cuff remark. There have also been instances of Pakistan losing out on lucrative deals due to a loose mouth. But in general:
1. How do we know that all the thought process behind our acquisition sprees have been what you guys have written?
2. What do we actually know about the developments in aviation and defence products by Turkey, Ukraine and South Africa?
3. What do we know( irrefutable facts and not the drivel fed into us by our HARAMI press{please understand the term of Harami in Arabic is that of a thief and I have used it in these terms} about our own finances and more so the greed of our leaders( both military and polity)?
4. Do we understand that the decision of acquiring this or that is not a decision of one man but a group of people who evaluate the equipment? If so are we calling the whole of our armed forces myopic, or there is something more to it than that?
5. PA collaborated with SA on one ofcthe Darter missiles? with Turkey on Milgem and T129, with Mectron Brazil on anARM(Forget the name, with the eventual aim of picking up the Pirhana). How many of these projects have been successful and ongoing and why?
6. What are the impediments of trading with these countries and why do we keep returning to China and now Turkey?
If we amalgamate our thoughts along these lines there is enough material on this board to think put why Pakistan is collaboration shy?
7. What was our own industry like and could it have incorporated the tech we were looking to get?
Lastly a lot is being written on Turkey's progress on Drones. We have a parallel industry and so collaboration my at best be in the field of subassemblies and information gathering and resolution of problems but not whole system.
Please refer to @bilal Khan777posts about Turkish developments and see where we are and why things are being done the way they are. He is turse but the truth comes out of his posts. There is more than 30yrs of full blooded first hand experience talking there.
Like all of you I wish PAKlands the best and I remain a loyal Pakistani. I am also a realist and not unaware of the corruption of our forces as well as polity but to label everyone carte blanche as myopic/nonsincere is very harsh.
Regards to one and all.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

what about new ACm? is just on seniority based? and some argued ha has ~2k flying hours and spent most of the time heading research groups? I mean it is a sign of change as his appointment took input from the prv ACM?

I will let him prove his mettle through his actions and judge him on his own merit.