Central African militias gather as French troops leave

[Baybars Han]

 

[flamer84]

When they left,there were railroad lines

 

[xenon54 out]

When they left,there were railroad lines

...to transport the goods being exploited from their lands.

Not gonna excuse the current state of Sub Saharan Africa on colonialism but even you know that those times werent exactly golden times of Africa.

 

[Baybars Han]

When they left,there were railroad lines

Give me romania, let me loot it for a couple hundred years, change your language and religion, and then dont worry I will build a few railroads or high speed trains. No problem.

 

[flamer84]

Give me romania, let me loot it for a couple hundred years, change your language and religion, and then dont worry I will build a few railroads or high speed trains. No problem.

What couple of hundred years ? Most of the African continent was colonised for 70-80 years at most.The only reason they have French,English as official languages is because their states are composed of multiple tribes with their own language,they're not true nation states,hence all the civil wars.You talk like most of Africa was some kind of modern civilisation destroyed by Europeans not some hunter gatherer tribes who were introduced to modernity by Europeans.They still speak their languages today but need French/English as a cohesion factor.

Romania was plundered for over 400 years by the Ottomans,the official writting language in the administration/Church was Slav for hundreds of years,looted by the Germans in WW1,savagely looted by the Soviets after WW2 .

 

[Counterpunch]

What couple of hundred years ? Most of the African continent was colonised for 70-80 years at most.The only reason they have French,English as official languages is because their states are composed of multiple tribes with their own language,they're not true nation states,hence all the civil wars.You talk like most of Africa was some kind of modern civilisation destroyed by Europeans not some hunter gatherer tribes who were introduced to modernity by Europeans.They still speak their languages today but need French/English as a cohesion factor.

Romania was plundered for over 400 years by the Ottomans,the official writting language in the administration/Church was Slav for hundreds of years,looted by the Germans in WW1,savagely looted by the Soviets after WW2 .

No wonder after such a long history of being looted and plundered, the best you could come up with was a 'when they left there were railroad lines' for all the looting and plundering they did for 7-8 decades!

 

[flamer84]

No wonder after such a long history of being looted and plundered, the best you could come up with was a 'when they left there were railroad lines' for all the looting and plundering they did for 7-8 decades!

There was nothing but huts and grassland in most of the colonies when Europeans came. Did they take that ? because that was what they had when Europeans arrived.They did left railroads,schools,roads,some infrastructure behind,yes.It can't be denied.What more do you want ? Most got their independence in the 50's,60's and they waisted time in civil wars.

 

[Counterpunch]

There was nothing but huts and grassland in most of the colonies when Europeans came. Did they take that ? because that was what they had when Europeans arrived.They did left railroads,schools,roads,some infrastructure behind,yes.It can't be denied.What more do you want ? Most got their independence in the 50's,60's and they waisted time in civil wars.

I just do not understand this logic. Were French invited to come help them raise their standards of living? or were they being a threat to the world peace as a weird (but sellable) logic in vogue these days? None! They were happy scaling deserts on foot and it is believed that it was the golden times for Africa else French would not have ventured into the sand dunes for nothing

French came as usurpers. And its a global fact (learnt from history) that whenever an outsider comes there is far more bloodshed on one ground or the other. It always uses the card of greener pastures but my objection is why in the first place the aboriginals need to be bothered? Therein lies the answer to the usurpers ulterior motives.

 

[Baybars Han]

 

[flamer84]

I just do not understand this logic. Were French invited to come help them raise their standards of living? or were they being a threat to the world peace as a weird (but sellable) logic in vogue these days? None! They were happy scaling deserts on foot and it is believed that it was the golden times for Africa else French would not have ventured into the sand dunes for nothing

French came as usurpers. And its a global fact (learnt from history) that whenever an outsider comes there is far more bloodshed on one ground or the other. It always uses the card of greener pastures but my objection is why in the first place the aboriginals need to be bothered? Therein lies the answer to the usurpers ulterior motives.

Look...here's what a real plunder stretching for hundreds of years looks like but we don't complain today.Everybody has to move on sometimes.Google translate

Ottoman exploitation
Muntenia paid during the period from the first tribute (1415) and until 1858, a sum that amounted to 664 176 536 lei gold. This amount converted to gold equivalent amount of 214,194 kg gold.
The amount resulted by transformation: 1 gold lion - equivalent to 0.3225 grams.
Moldova paid in the period between 1456 and 1858 a sum that amounted to 322.532 million lei gold. By converting that amount resulted in the amount of 104,338 kg gold.
After Union principalities in 1859 and until the conquest's Independence in 1877, Romania has paid the sum of 44.615 million Ottoman gold lei, equivalent to an amount of 14,392 kg gold.
Transylvania paid in the period between 1415 and 1650 but was under Ottoman rule, the amount of 25.108 million lei gold, an amount that would equate to 8097 kg gold.
In total, paid tribute Ottoman Empire Wallachia, Moldavia and Transylvania, was amounted to 1,056,305,780 lei gold, equivalent to 341,021 kg gold.

Habsburg exploitation
In total, between 1678-1918, the Habsburg Empire has received various forms of Transylvania, Oltenia, Banat and Bucovina amount of 2,450,000,000 lei gold, equivalent to 875.5 thousand kg gold.
An important source of revenue for the treasury rapacious imperial Austria-Hungary after 1867 constituted a precious metals mining activities, capitalizing their production being a state monopoly.
The few data that have been preserved, the following stand out: production of gold mine in Baia Sprie was built between 1823 -1857 to 13,743 kg and the mines in Baia Mare and Zlatna căpitănatele between 1891-1912 to 10,999 kg, so the entire gold production during this period was 24,742 kg gold.
The amount of silver mined in Baia Sprie between 1792-1897 was 4.38866 million kilograms, and at Baia Mare and Zlatna căpitănatele was 51,602 kg, thus the total silver production during this period was 4,440,462 kg.

Czarist exploitation
Russian first coming in was to come on 10 June 1711 when the army of Tsar Peter the Great crossed the Dniester to be soon destroyed Stanilesti.
In a short time as they roamed in Moldova, new allies were illustrated by a theft which struck the imagination columnists: silver stairs from saddles to the boyars, who had just tasted first French champagne, remaining "astonished drunk."
Later invasions are repeated with some regularity whenever Gate is attacked by a territorial booming Russia, first around the Black Sea, then to the West, by Moldova.
1739, 1770-'74, 1787-'92, 1806-1812 - occupation army has caused immense damage Romanian countries, generating an unhappy period of despopulare and poverty.
Tsarist armies showed their full potential discretionary abusive: abuse, systematic looting, along with requisition, confiscation of goods and animals transformed our principalities in countries with a high degree of misery.
When nothing was taken, imperial armies were returning home, to return to how it strong position in the Principalities. Diplomatic, all the while, Russia, competing with Austria, maneuver fully joining the Danubian principalities - a necessary step on the way to Constantinople (and, as we have seen excellent milking cows - na), which did not prevent the emergence of factions Boyar pro-Russian ".

During 1789-1854, Moldova and Muntenia obligations incurred in money and goods worth 2,000,000,000 lei gold, equivalent to 64,516 kg gold, plus the robberies, arsons and other cities more damage that can not be calculated.
In conclusion, the damage caused by the three major imperial powers (Ottoman, Habsburg, Tsarist) Romanian territory in the said period amounted to 1,263,037 kg gold.

Privations, robberies and many other acts of deception borne by our poor country will continue after the outbreak of World War I, when the entire treasure Romanian National Bank, sent to Moscow - to be protected from the danger of the war - 21 December 1916 us He was sequestered.
This treasure - composed of 886 482 pounds, 87.79856 million crowns Austrian DM 116 050 000, 379 075 pounds Ottoman Napoleons 46,117,140, 1,065,705 Carolini (lei gold) 177 212 Russian coins, 103 605 different coins, gold bullion amounting to 337 247 gold lei, to which we added three boxes that belonged to the royal house - containing jewelry and other goods worth 7,013,065 lei gold.
These statements sent to Moscow that first transport that contained in the 1740 tapes, totaling 321 580 456 lei gold were stored so well in the vaults of the Kremlin that did not return to the country.
It will have the same fate and transport of the second Romanian National Bank, conducted on 27 July 1917 when the 1,661 boxes located in 24 wagons had the terminus Moscow - Kremlin deposits.
This second shipment consisted of: gold deposit and values of the House of Deposits and Consignments, paintings from the Pinacoteca State, monasteries treasures from the Old Kingdom, private deposits, property deeds, jewelry, other valuables, etc., all this with a value declared seven and a half billion lei gold, and have passed from the day the Russian government agents have been assigned and loaded into wagons, guaranteed by the Russian government regarding transport safety, security, storage, and return to Romania.
These values hoard country - we have seen, where, and how, to try to save them from the danger of war - let's see now who was the damage caused by enemy occupied territory of Romania, during the War, they were valued at 31 billion lei gold.

But the chain damage, spoliation, profits transferred abroad in Romania and continues throughout the interwar period, plus the losses caused by the economic exploitation of the country by Nazi Germany during 1939-1944 valued at about 62.5 billion to which is added the destruction and requisitions made by the same army from August 1944 to October 25, 1944, evaluated at about 30 billion lei.
These are just some examples, but the documents of the time - so, and how were preserved - we recorded for the period 1916-1945, in terms of war damages, profits, interest, etc. obtained by foreign capital, about 336,300,000,000 gold lei, which would amount to 12,546,217 kg gold stolen, as we have seen, through different methods in our country.

After WW2




In May 1945, concluding months of the war when it no longer needs to be front, from the Romanian side was claimed (by the Soviets) 55,000 wagons and 115 locomotives.
In the same month they were seized as "war trophies" 67 factories belonging to the food industry and light oil. Only from the oil industry were raised 51 173 tons of tubular material.
The value of goods belonging to railways, aviation and Romanian Navy requisitioned by Soviet troops without any form was amounted to 338 billion lei.

Apart from compensation payments and refunds related to the goods, in addition to what enthusiastically Slavic troops plundered in passing there and their maintenance obligation, hundreds of thousands, if not millions.
Between August 23, 1944 and May 31, 1945 were handed over for this purpose 15 357 cars of grain, 10.407 wagons vegetable 1885 wagons of meat, 387 coaches canned meat, 163 wagons fat, 88 wagons of fish, 124 wagons of milk 27 cars delicacies 155 wagons spirits of salt wagons 1023, 4902 Forage wagons, 279 wagons tobacco cigarettes 528.647 million. And matches: 35.134 million boxes ...
From September 1944 until 1 July 1945 the Red Army delivered 385,000 tons of food - only daily ration of flour amounted to 851.482 portions!
Romania defense a veritable colony of Russia, while Western European countries gave up their colonies which, in turn, won their independence.
Require money and maintaining Allied Control Commissions counties: Romanian State advanced to the 1946 amount of 185.532.163.520 lei in their account.
As for the products delivered, they had to be of the highest quality, as required:
"They will not giveSoviet deposits of low quality products (spoiled, stupid smoked, tail, jaw, strips etc.)".
Instead of specifying high humanity "bone marrow bones will be given toRomanian troops, schools, hospitals to be cooked soups."

By truce ended September 12, 1944, Romania was obliged to make a particular effort just and timely fulfillment of obligations of our state, which amounted to USD 1.535.287.000 (calculated value those years), obligations have had paid up to March 31, 1947, which exceeds by far the economic effort made by our country throughout the war Hitler.
Account of the armistice, Romania had to deliver: 5,772,409 tons oil products 526 315 cattle, 1,001,138 sheep, pigs heads 376 787, 251 398 horses, 244 sea and river vessels, 214 broad gauge locomotives, 228.592 sheathing cloth, sugar 16.380 tons, 4,250 tons oil, 870 729 pairs boots, boots pairs 153 612 bison and many, many other trinkets, reaching pencils and needles.

But once completed payment of these obligations imposed by the Convention of Armistice, a new invention has been experienced in our country - Sovromurile.
Sovrom - wood, making massive cuts fir forests, Sovrom - grain, oil, uranium and even the country was taken by Sovrom - chemistry.
Through sovromurilor, Romania became economic vassal of the great neighbor to the east.
Almost 90% of exports went to the USSR, and half were dependent on imports of the same relationship.
But the export value was undervalued, while imports is made at international quotations.
Even in Romania during the war had not reached such a degree of dependence on the former ally.
Germany reached the maximum 56% of Romanian exports. "Stalin's death in March 1953 and a change in the Soviet leadership.
Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev communist says in his memoirs: "I understand that the Romanian sovromurile are like calluses on the toes" ...
In 1956, sovromurile are abolished, but Romania will redeem its stake in these companies Soviet. And the payments will last until the 70s.
It is estimated that by these companies, Romania was shaken for about $ 2 billion, which would mean in actual money a sum of 30 billion dollars.

So, @Counterpunch ....how about this for systematic robbery and exploitation ?

 

[EgyptianAmerican]

It is estimated that by these companies, Romania was shaken for about $ 2 billion, which would mean in actual money a sum of 30 billion dollars.

HAH! Your entire countries history of stolen things is ALL chump change compared to the Wealth that Europe Pludered from Egypt and the Countless thousands of precious and pricless artifacts nearly 3,000+ years old that were stolen or destroyed in Europes rampage For Ancient Egyptian Artifacts and Ancient Egyptian Gold.

EVEN TODAY, there are STILL stealing Egyptian wealth.

 

[flamer84]

HAH! Your entire countries history of stolen things is ALL chump change compared to the Wealth that Europe Pludered from Egypt and the Countless thousands of precious and pricless artifacts nearly 3,000+ years old that were stolen or destroyed in Europes rampage For Ancient Egyptian Artifacts and Ancient Egyptian Gold.

EVEN TODAY, there are STILL stealing Egyptian wealth.

Really ? Talk is cheap.Present a list like I did.Besides artefacts,which are important but don't really contribute to the economy,I'm talking about industry equipment,monetary theft,trains,locomotives,etc.You're free to show your version.

At the end of WW2 the Soviets even took the blueprints of the IAR 80 (a propeller fighter plane) out of spite.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAR_80

 

[mike2000 is back]

There was nothing but huts and grassland in most of the colonies when Europeans came. Did they take that ? because that was what they had when Europeans arrived.They did left railroads,schools,roads,some infrastructure behind,yes.It can't be denied.What more do you want ? Most got their independence in the 50's,60's and they waisted time in civil wars.

Well, this is an interesting and tricky topic, talking about Africa's sad predicament of poverty,corruption, nepotism and wars. Having been to several African countries,red about many member countries history and spent considerable amount of time in some i can make a clear picture of the issues hampering the continents emergence.

First of all, "Africa" is a big and diverse continent, its not a country. Some have decent living standard/wealthy like S.Africa, Sychelles, Equactorial Guinea, Gabon,Mauritius, Bostwana who all have a higher GDP per capital/living standards than many Middle Eastern and even South American countries, while others are as poor as Pakistan,India and Bengladesh. So the answer varies depending on this diversity of this vast continent. We should avoid clubbing all Africa as one. Its like clubbing all of Middle East, Asia as one. lol

Also, there are really two questions here that we should ask ourselves:. "Why is Africa Poor(just like we could ask the same thing about S.Asia and why ME is in such chaos etc)", and "Why haven't years of International aid changed that".

The answers to these are not simple, but here are a couple of thoughts on it at a high level.

In order for any country, region etc to become wealthy, they must create wealth. That is, they must use their natural resources to produce something of value to themselves, or the rest of the world, preferably both. Most of the native cultures in Africa are tribal, local, hunter gatherer economies(i mean based on natural resource exploitation and subsistence agriculture not really on industry).So ,they may be able, at best, to produce enough of the necessities to sustain life, but not much beyond that to trade.
Yes it's true that Africa's history has also included a substantial period of time when a good part of the continent was colonized by western powers(mainly U.K,France, Portugal, Germany and Spain). Basically, it was mined for it's resources rather than those resources used by the inhabitants to sustain some sort of wealth generating industry. Where that has not been the case, the standard of living is somewhat higher. South Africa, Egypt, and parts of Northern Africa have benefited by some of this due to the influences and proximity to Europe. However, we cant blame all of the continents miseries on past colonization, since many other countries from Asia, Latin America and Middle east were also colonized by the above western powers but are doing quite well(or decent enough).So colonization cant be used as an excuse either(self victimization leads to avoiding any self introspection and hampers progress).

Finally, in order to see and pursue the production of wealth, there has to be a culture of that fosters the kind of ambition and work ethic, the pursuit of knowledge and an organizational structure that provides a framework within which individuals, groups and the society as a whole can grow and thrive, as well as a sense of larger community, or communities that share a willingness to cooperate. I don't see this type of culture as endemic in Africa as a whole.

International aid and even western/UN forces trying to stabilise these countries has failed because it is doing the wrong things(which i think we in the west fail to understand). You can't make people rich by giving them money or throwing just soldiers to stop comflict.lol. You can only make them less poor for a while. The money has to be put to work within a society that understands and is willing to do something with it that produces and sustains wealth. If it is just consumed, then it's gone, and poverty returns. It tries to teach people how to do things to improve their condition, but without the proper context that help them understand why and where they can fit into the global economic infrastructure, they have no real incentive beyond putting the knowledge to work to enhance what they already do, but not grow beyond those limitations. I can teach you have to be a better farmer. But unless you understand how that opens the door to trade and, combined with the right understanding and ambition, results in the production of excess with the intend of trading it up, it serves only to better enable you to do only what you currently do. Also, you just can't export industry. We forget that in the West, and most of the rest of the developed and developing world, the infrastructure, knowledge and supportive systems that sustain the wealth production capability was built over years. With the infrastructure cones a learned and cultivated ability to know what to do with it, how to use it, and the skills to do so. These things are not so easily exported, but are essential for the infrastructure to be productive.

Plus we should al note that it is man-made political and economic institutions that underlie economic success (or the lack of it). Korea, to take just one of their fascinating examples, is a remarkably homogeneous nation, yet the people of North Korea are among the poorest on earth while their brothers and sisters in South Korea are among the richest. The south forged a society that created incentives, rewarded innovation, and allowed everyone to participate in economic opportunities. The economic success thus spurred was sustained because the government became accountable and responsive to citizens and the great mass of people. Sadly, the people of the north have endured decades of famine, political repression, and very different economic institutions with no end in sight. The differences between the Korea's is due to the politics and leadership that created these completely different institutional trajectories.

So, it is also the institutions. Or better, the historical path of each country, the circumstances under which the institutions were made, the preferences and the open-mindedness of the leaders together with some historical luck(i know it sounds funny but its the truth. lol), that is what leads nations to prosperity.

Now, the African nations have inherited dysfunctional institutional framework, Now, the African nations have inherited dysfunctional institutional framework, institutions made by the elites for the elites. The poor regions of Africa are experiencing a vicious cycle of development of its economic and political institutions, that is its elites, from the age of colonialism till today, take the power to serve themselves and are fiercely opposed to any institutional reform which could bring their power to an end (e.g. parliamentary democracy, guaranteed property rights etc.) funny enough this also applies to some middle eastern and poor S.Asian countries . Thus, the conditions for a healthy economic growth, based on the entrepreneurial spirit of the individual, are not met, exactly because there is fear of the central power, of the political instability. The state simply offers no incentives for the individual to innovate and to thrive, as it happens in the western liberal democracies or in somehow homogenous disciplined East Asian societies..

Finally, there is rampant corruption, constant conflict and wars, and in some parts of Africa, rather inhospitable places to live climate wise. To a large extent, the capability to build wealth has to be developed. drop shipping it in doesn't necessarily result in it taking root. Simply throwing money and soldiers to stabilize it has no lasting effect.

 

[Baybars Han]

Only a person with a fish brain will think the colonizers helped africa. Steal everything, slave them and then say we helped you. France, UK did more genocides in human history. UK killed more than 5 million Indians, not counting other countries, aboriginal etc. France only 60 years ago killed more than 1 million algerians, did nuclear tests on them.