Catalonia declares independence from Spain

[livingdead]

Why not as India says it is democracy?

yeah.. but not that democratic.... somewhere between UK and thailand...

 

[UKBengali]

yeah.. but not that democratic.... somewhere between UK and thailand...

Do you think India will suvive till 100th birthday as the richer and more educated it becomes the more the rift between rich states like Gujarat and poor ones like Bihar?

 

[livingdead]

Do you think India will suvive till 100th birthday as the richer and more educated it becomes the more the rift between rich states like Gujarat and poor ones like Bihar?

i doubt the laggards will remain so for decades... out of the bimaru states MP and rajasthan are doing ok, so are chattisgarh and uttarakhand(new states)... its only UP and bihar that have serious long term issues.
the backward states are growing faster(obviously as they come from lower base).. where as rich states like punjab have plateaued.. i dont think the gap will grow bigger...
i am more worried about access to sanitation and healthcare... across India... thats a difficult challenge but not something that will break India.

 

[Deliorman]

Catalonians deserve a state, so why not give them one?

Westerners support all sorts of separatism throughout the middle east and yet when it comes to their unity they don't give a sh*t about any minorities.

I love Spain and Catalonia... Spain is an amazing country with great history, nature and lifestyle and is also one of the few countries in the EU Turkey doesn’t have any problems with. Spain is a peaceful country that doesn’t really mess into the Middle East or Turkey’s affairs and even is a good partner for Turkey in developing it’s naval power. I have not heard Spanish politicians giving anti Turkish speeches too.

I wish Spain and the Catalans all the best and hope they solve their problems peacefully. It’s other countries that deserve our hate and bad wishes in the EU but it’s not Spain.

 

[livingdead]

Well, 42% of the resident in my building voted to separate administrative control between the land of my building and the Australian Government, and we, 42% of resident voted our building in Blacktown to be independence from Australia. And today, the country of "308 Stephen St" as a country formally established. All hailed the 308 Stephen St............And since Australia is a parliamentary democracy, by law they will need to grant my building Independence from the country of Australia
.

said the englishman while sipping his morning cuppa and reading morning news... the world has gone to dogs, why are americans like this? do they really need to throw those precious tea in sea?

 

[Mucahit]

I love Spain and Catalonia... Spain is an amazing country with great history, nature and lifestyle and is also one of the few countries in the EU Turkey doesn’t have any problems with. Spain is a peaceful country that doesn’t really mess into the Middle East or Turkey’s affairs and even is a good partner for Turkey in developing it’s naval power. I have not heard Spanish politicians giving anti Turkish speeches too.

I wish Spain and the Catalans all the best and hope they solve their problems peacefully. It’s other countries that deserve our hate and bad wishes in the EU but it’s not Spain.

l know bro, we still have Spanish Patriots in Turkey while other countries left a few years ago but l was pointing out what kind of double standards Europeans have.

Separatism nowadays is just waste of time anyway. Catalonians could've asked for better status but this whole independence thing will harm them in the long run.

 

[UKBengali]

i doubt the laggards will remain so for decades... out of the bimaru states MP and rajasthan are doing ok, so are chattisgarh and uttarakhand(new states)... its only UP and bihar that have serious long term issues.
the backward states are growing faster(obviously as they come from lower base).. where as rich states like punjab have plateaued.. i dont think the gap will grow bigger...
i am more worried about access to sanitation and healthcare... across India... thats a difficult challenge but not something that will break India.

You are aware that states like Gujarat and Tamil Nadu have GDP/capita 3 times that of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar?

Check out below Indian source:

"https://thelogicalindian.com/story-feed/awareness/gdp-india/"

"In 1960, the top three states were 1.7 times richer than the bottom three. By 2014, this gap had almost doubled, with the major three States being three times richer than the bottom three."

"This gap between the richest and the poorest large states in India is among the highest in the world. Economic theories suggest that the poorer regions grow faster to catch up with the richer states but in India, the trend of increasing disparity still continues."

The gap between the poorest and richest states has increased from 1.7 to 3 times and is only recently being somewhat stabilised.


http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...ains-robust/story-9kKDiSMRwKRUZrJFcBMQsK.html

In last 5 years Bihar grew by 7.5% on average over the last 5 years.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...ought-tn-clocks-79-growth/article19123588.ece

Tamil Nadu grew by 7.9% last fiscal and so there is no "catch-up" by states like Bihar going on.

I think the problems for the Indian Union will start around 2030 when the masses all have 3 square meals, decent infrastructure, education and then people in rich states like Gujarat will wonder why they are paying many thousands of billions Rupees every year to subsidise people that do not even speak the same language as them. We have seen that common religion is not enough to hold a country together many times before.

 

[jhungary]

said the englishman while sipping his morning cuppa and reading morning news... the world has gone to dogs, why are americans like this? do they really need to throw those precious tea in sea?

and you on the other hand have no idea how the situation end up like this just like everyone else, probably you aren't really interested in the people of "Catalonia" instead of jumping up and down across the board and pointing out the "Hypocrisies" of the west.

I don't even know whether or not to educate you on the issue or just let it be, because as far as I concern, I have this distinctive feeling any word I type is lost on you and just gonna go down the drain, and to a person like you? The so-called "Story" is much more than the actual history and people that gone thru.

But then you aren't actually the worse, I have to admit.

 

[JPMM]

Sorry brothers, but if you want to be independent from spain, you wil have to do it our way!
We formed in 1143 ac and to continue that way have killed all kinds of thinks since then, including Spanish, French, Germans and North African Muslims.
If you think you will get it just by Politics, your roung! You will have to fight for it!

 

[livingdead]

and you on the other hand have no idea how the situation end up like this just like everyone else, probably you aren't really interested in the people of "Catalonia" instead of jumping up and down across the board and pointing out the "Hypocrisies" of the west.

I don't even know whether or not to educate you on the issue or just let it be, because as far as I concern, I have this distinctive feeling any word I type is lost on you and just gonna go down the drain, and to a person like you? The so-called "Story" is much more than the actual history and people that gone thru.

But then you aren't actually the worse, I have to admit.

this generic crapypasta can be used in all situations in every thread... every post I disagree with.. I will keep it... thanks.

You are aware that states like Gujarat and Tamil Nadu have GDP/capita 3 times that of Uttar Pradesh and Bihar?

Check out below Indian source:

"https://thelogicalindian.com/story-feed/awareness/gdp-india/"

"In 1960, the top three states were 1.7 times richer than the bottom three. By 2014, this gap had almost doubled, with the major three States being three times richer than the bottom three."

"This gap between the richest and the poorest large states in India is among the highest in the world. Economic theories suggest that the poorer regions grow faster to catch up with the richer states but in India, the trend of increasing disparity still continues."

The gap between the poorest and richest states has increased from 1.7 to 3 times and is only recently being somewhat stabilised.


http://www.hindustantimes.com/india...ains-robust/story-9kKDiSMRwKRUZrJFcBMQsK.html

In last 5 years Bihar grew by 7.5% on average over the last 5 years.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nation...ought-tn-clocks-79-growth/article19123588.ece

Tamil Nadu grew by 7.9% last fiscal and so there is no "catch-up" by states like Bihar going on.

I think the problems for the Indian Union will start around 2030 when the masses all have 3 square meals, decent infrastructure, education and then people in rich states like Gujarat will wonder why they are paying many thousands of billions Rupees every year to subsidise people that do not even speak the same language as them. We have seen that common religion is not enough to hold a country together many times before.

that happened in 80s when punjab was rich(same idea).. and it saw militancy.. put down by violent force... the idea that rich states pay for poor states is not new... and all the sides agree that the union in the current form is better than the alternative... gujrat is nothing without access to free market of billion plus people...
the cost of military/foreign affairs that union provides is pretty cheap and affordable to all states... and then the threat from pakistan and other foreign countries.... we have devolved power to states so that the natural tendency of people to separate is slightly curtailed.

You are taking one specific year as example and one specific laggard state... not all rich states grow at 7.9 nor is bihar going to grow at 7.5 percent, it might be less.... overall the considerable number of backward states have come out of backwardness... and that is not going to change just because of UP and bihar.
1960 is a wrong baseline to pick because we were socialists then... and after liberalization the sprinters ran the fastest...

India's worst time(70s and 80s) is over.. the only reason for India's divide is tension between communities, even then we are corrupt people, and corruption allows compromise,... compared to how we dealt with tamilandu language issue and how pakistan dealth with bengalis, you should not doubt the creativity and deal making capability of chanakyan pplz...

I wont hold my breath... if I was you...

 

[UKBengali]

India's worst time(70s and 80s) is over.. the only reason for India's divide is tension between communities, even then we are corrupt people, and corruption allows compromise,... compared to how we dealth with tamilandu language issue and how pakistan dealth with bengalis, you should not doubt the creativity and deal making capability of chanakyan pplz...

India's worse times will come as it becomes richer and educated. Poor and uneducated people do not have that much time or energy to think about nationalism as they are too busy surviving.

Multi-ethnic states simply do not work, unless one group is overwhelmingly dominant like in UK.
Even the UK is just about holding together as the highly dominant English(80%) are bribing the minority Scots and Welsh to stay in the Union. Per English person it costs little to bribe the Scots and Welsh to stay in the Union.

Why should a Gujarati or Tamil pay his tax Rupees for economically failed Biharis? These poor and backward states are hundreds of millions of persons in total and so massive subsidies will be required to keep them at some kind of parity with India. Unless the richer parts of India massively subsidise these poor states, all that will happen is that people in the poor parts of India will up sticks and move to the richer areas.

I would be very surprised in India keeps within it's current borders by the time it is 100 years old.

 

[livingdead]

India's worse times will come as it becomes richer and educated. Poor and uneducated people do not have that much time or energy to think about nationalism as they are too busy surviving.

Multi-ethnic states simply do not work, unless one group is overwhelmingly dominant like in UK.
Even the UK is just about holding together as the highly dominant English(80%) are bribing the minority Scots and Welsh to stay in the Union. Per English person it costs little to bribe the Scots and Welsh to stay in the Union.

Why should a Gujarati or Tamil pay his tax Rupees for economically failed Biharis? These poor and backward states are hundreds of millions of persons in total and so massive subsidies will be required to keep them at some kind of parity with India. Unless the richer parts of India massively subsidise these poor states, all that will happen is that people in the poor parts of India will up sticks and move to the richer areas.

I would be very surprised in India keeps within it's current borders by the time it is 100 years old.

. frankly I would not mind a weaker Indian nation (replaced with a loose confederation like EU)... if significant part of india becomes rich enough and there is little external threat... ... otherwise the rich states will be violently stopped... and poorer states can provide enough men to keep the union intact.
I already told you why being in union makes sense.. you pay money to the club so that you get access to do business.. dont know if it is good enough for future gujratis.... but its fine for now.

looks like neither of can convince other side what is going to happen in future.. so guess we will have to wait... I would not mind if India remains the exception to the rule of unitary states(although I do think pakistan and many other big countries have considerably diversity of their own.. we are not special).

 

[UKBengali]

. frankly I would not mind a weaker Indian nation (replaced with a loose confederation like EU)... if significant part of india becomes rich enough and there is little external threat... ... otherwise the rich states will be violently stopped... and poorer states can provide enough men to keep the union intact.
I already told you why being in union makes sense.. you pay money to the club so that you get access to do business.. dont know if it is good enough for future gujratis.... but its fine for now.

looks like neither of can convince other side what is going to happen in future.. so guess we will have to wait... I would not mind if India remains the exception to the rule of unitary states(although I do think pakistan and many other big countries have considerably diversity of their own.. we are not special).

It makes logical sense from a defence point of view for Indians to stick together.

Economically the richer parts of India are getting shafted as whatever they gain from a massive internal market is being negated by the subsidies. Remember as India develops further the subsidies will only rise since government spending as percentage of GDP will rise over time.

End of the day we can talk about economics but nationalism is also a very powerful force. Who knows India may be an exception to the rule of history but I would not bet on India staying intact for the long haul.

 

[livingdead]

It makes logical sense from a defence point of view for Indians to stick together.

Economically the richer parts of India are getting shafted as whatever they gain from a massive internal market is being negated by the subsidies. Remember as India develops further the subsidies will only rise since government spending as percentage of GDP will rise over time.

End of the day we can talk about economics but nationalism is also a very powerful force. Who knows India may be an exception to the rule of history but I would not bet on India staying intact for the long haul.

am not sure the subsidy by richer states is more than what they gain from tariff free access to billion plus people.. but i dont have any number to prove it...
nationalism is just one part of the binding force but we got the 'momentum'(or whatever the word that means its already there) as well... it will be difficult to create an union now but because we already got it. it will require a lot of effort to break it.
yeah.. lets bet.... remindme after 30 years.. but then this goalpost has always been changed...first it was 10 years(india will cruble under her own weight).. the idea that 'indians are not rich enough to divide' is just another one... you are right by default because of the evidence of other states that has come into being ...because the way history of nation states has developed... in europe...
after 100 years you will probably give 10 more year... and so on..

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

are you playing dumb? why would any nation have a law that allows secession? .. look at the countries made in 20th century, if we follow the 'law', many of these countries will be ruled by colonial masters...

the ugly truth is, spain has the military power to enforce the 'law', thats the only reason catalan cant be independent.. everything else is just bs.

The U.S. constitution allows secession.
Having rules for secession is natural when the nation is a union of entities.
Any law that is not backed by some kind of enforcement is useless.