Canada May Dump F-35, Open New Competition

[yugocrosrb95]

For money that F35 would cost canada, they could buy two to three times more Gripens. lol

 

[anon45]

For money that F35 would cost canada, they could buy two to three times more Gripens. lol

not really, a F-35 in the time frame they are considering buying (2018-2020) would be 85 million... The development cost is already sunk...

 

[yugocrosrb95]

not really, a F-35 in the time frame they are considering buying (2018-2020) would be 85 million... The development cost is already sunk...

Yea... Okay... But think about operating cost

 

[anon45]

Yea... Okay... But think about operating cost

operating cost is half, but Canada would have to get the Gripen modified for its own requirements, and pay out of pocket for its own modifications to fit with NORAD and NATO requirements,I wonder how much that would cost. It could very likely turn out Canada paying more for a far less capable system.

Also you have to take into account that Canada has to arm up against Russia and maybe in the future China, not Brasil. Canada has to worry about Russia claiming its arctic holdings, and if Russia sends in S-300's and S-400's on destroyers to back its claim of Canadian arctic territory, Gripens aren't going to cut it.

 

[yugocrosrb95]

operating cost is half, but Canada would have to get the Gripen modified for its own requirements, and pay out of pocket for its own modifications to fit with NORAD and NATO requirements,I wonder how much that would cost. It could very likely turn out Canada paying more for a far less capable system.

You're very ignorant about JAS 39 Gripen... Operating cost of Gripen is only 1/4 of F35 and lets not talk about maintainance of F35... Gripen is NATO compatible/fullfils NATO requirements you dummy otherwise Hungary would't use it nor United Kingdom...

Far less capable? You're delusional and since NATO standards/requirements are mainly dictacted by USA, then I assume that difference between NORAD and NATO requirements are small otherwise USA would have had two variants of jets fulfilling each requirements/standards.

Read this:
Best Fighter for Canada: Fighter Jet Fight Club: F-35 vs. Gripen

Also you have to take into account that Canada has to arm up against Russia and maybe in the future China, not Brasil. Canada has to worry about Russia claiming its arctic holdings, and if Russia sends in S-300's and S-400's on destroyers to back its claim of Canadian arctic territory, Gripens aren't going to cut it.

Like I didn't taken into account, oh wait... Why am I here?Oh yea, Canada and future of their airforce... Canada would not consider JAS 39 Gripen if it wasn't a capable jet of fullfiling Canada's need in present and future. Don't act all superior you ignoramus.

Gripen for its own footprint on radar and IC can be considered a stealthy fighter.

 

[airmarshal]

Two national defense related item Liberals had promised.

- Pulling out Canada from combat operations in Middle East
- Scrapping expensive F-35 deal.

Then, Liberals seemed to be heading toward a minority coalition. Now they are majority after spectacular election sweep.

 

[yugocrosrb95]

Two national defense related item Liberals had promised.

- Pulling out Canada from combat operations in Middle East
- Scrapping expensive F-35 deal.

Then, Liberals seemed to be heading toward a minority coalition. Now they are majority after spectacular election sweep.

I hope he truly dumps F35... It is garbage tier in antartic conditions, JAS 39 Gripen is perfect and it can work in Africa, Middle East and Asia...

 

[anon45]

You're very ignorant about JAS 39 Gripen... Operating cost of Gripen is only 1/4 of F35 and lets not talk about maintainance of F35... Gripen is NATO compatible/fullfils NATO requirements you dummy otherwise Hungary would't use it nor United Kingdom...

ooh here comes the name calling looks like I hit a sensitive spot Must really boil your blood that the F-35 is shaping up to be one of the most successful multi-role fighter programs in history.

Here you go, what Brasil payed for 36 Gripen NG

Brazil signs US$5 billion contract for 36 Swedish Gripen NG fighter jets | Defense Update:

I suppose if Canada feels like paying ~150 million for inferior aircraft to what they have I suppose they could!

In all seriousness, Economies of scale does not work in Gripen's favor.

Far less capable? You're delusional and since NATO standards/requirements are mainly dictacted by USA, then I assume that difference between NORAD and NATO requirements are small otherwise USA would have had two variants of jets fulfilling each requirements/standards.

Read this:
Best Fighter for Canada: Fighter Jet Fight Club: F-35 vs. Gripen



Like I didn't taken into account, oh wait... Why am I here?Oh yea, Canada and future of their airforce... Canada would not consider JAS 39 Gripen if it wasn't a capable jet of fullfiling Canada's need in present and future. Don't act all superior you ignoramus.

Gripen for its own footprint on radar and IC can be considered a stealthy fighter.

More name calling, you are aware this just throws your arguments into the gutter along with your mouth right?

You seem to have quite a brittle ego if you take an argument with no mention of you yourself as an example of your inferiority.

Far less capable? You're delusional

This is not an argument

Funny thing, it isn't the Canadian military considering it, It's Canadian politicians backed up by an ignorant public following smear campaigns from folks such as David Axe and the supposed F-16 'designer' Pierre Sprey.

I'm sure many Canadians still think the F-35 lost in a dog fight to the F-16.



If you are truly looking to educate yourself instead of just name-calling people who disagree with you, Go here, if you act like this there though you will be chewed up and spit out. F-35 Lightning II

Here is a specific thread to go nuts on F-35A versus Saab Grippen NG - F-35 versus XYZ

 

[yugocrosrb95]

@anon45
I didn't know that American's consider a description of a state, a name calling...

You are jumping to conclusion and being ignorant, again! Stop with the denial!

Proper description of your mental condition:
Willful ignorance - RationalWiki

Gripen C/D(not Gripen E aka NG)
Saab Gripen vs F-35 « Defense Issues
Comparing modern Western fighters « Defense Issues
Missile and aircraft turn performance « Defense Issues

F-35 Test Pilot Confirms: F-35 Is Useless In Dogfights, Can’t Beat the F-16 « Zbigniew Mazurak's Blog
F-35 Test Pilot Confirms: F-35 Is Useless In Dogfights, Can’t Beat the F-16 « Defense Issues
F-16 vs F-35 « Defense Issues

Also where is it written in the link you submitted that Gripen NG price is 150 million US dollars?

Sweden, Brazil Pursue Deeper Cooperation With $4.7B Gripen NG Deal

The deal is 4.7 not 5.4 billion USD and in the deal includes local production, assembly, training of pilots and engineers plus development costs for Sea Gripen for aircraft carriers.

In 2013 Gripen NG estimation with VAT is 100 million USD compared to F35A 184 and F35B 292 million USD with VAT,but without engine...

Actual F-35 unit cost « Defense Issues

Gripen C is 53 million USD with VAT...

Modern aircraft flyaway costs « Defense Issues

Dassault Rafale vs F-35 « Defense Issues

F-35 pilots under 200 pounds 'are at a serious-level risk' of fatal whiplash if they have to eject - Business Insider

Gripen E can supercruise at 1.25 mach while F-35 can not!

The Replacements: Canada's Future Fighters, Gripen - Part 4 | Vanguard Magazine

The Gripen NG meets every single one of our non-discretionary domestic obligations, including NORAD, and it is more than capable of meeting any discretionary role we play with NATO or in a global war scenario (keyword being discretionary).

Anyway... Gripen uses the same engine as Super Hornet, but tweaked and improved thus Canadian Airforce already knows maintainance of the engine and has the infrastructure for it.

 

[anon45]

I didn't know that American's consider a description of a state, a name calling...

A little education then, native English speakers would consider being called an ignoramus, dummy, and delusional in the same response as intentionally insulting and the response of someone who either does not know how to argue, or a troll. I am assuming you are not a native English Speaker because you would know these words are insulting otherwise.

Gripen C/D(not Gripen E aka NG)
Saab Gripen vs F-35 « Defense Issues
Comparing modern Western fighters « Defense Issues
Missile and aircraft turn performance « Defense Issues

Wait... you are seriously advocating the C for Canada? I don't know what to say... Its a 4th gen fighter, it isn't even 4.5 like the Rafale or Eurofighter...not even Canadians asking for the Gripen are asking for the C. Its pretty much irrelevant.

F-35 Test Pilot Confirms: F-35 Is Useless In Dogfights, Can’t Beat the F-16 « Zbigniew Mazurak's Blog
F-35 Test Pilot Confirms: F-35 Is Useless In Dogfights, Can’t Beat the F-16 « Defense Issues
F-16 vs F-35 « Defense Issues

Of course, David Axe as a source :facepalm:

This sort of misinformation is why the Canadians are getting misled and could ultimately end up spending more on a competition with an obvious outcome just to choose the same aircraft without the perks of its sole source contract. Even worse, they could end up with an inferior fighter at higher cost!

Why The "F-35 v F-16" Article Is Garbage | Fighter Sweep (by a former F-16 and F-18 pilot)
Elements Of Power: David Axe on the F-35: Still Making S**T Up…
No, the F-35 was not beaten by an F-16


I will reiterate, If you are so sure of your views, go here, discuss it, hell you might convert a few if your views are right, it is a forum full of enthusiasts and actual pilots, so your message will have a very knowledgeable audience.

That said its already been argued to death over there, so I'd recommend you read up.

F-35 Lightning II

 

[C130]

they need a long range speedy interceptor.

either Eurofighter Typhoon the 2020 version

or Rafale


ideally Canada really needs the Mig-31BM type aircraft, but I don't think Russia is willing to sell those to NATO.

 

[yugocrosrb95]

@anon45

How did you conclude that I am advocating C iteration for Canada? How? Because of the links? Okay, so you are again jumping to conclusion as usual because I am not advocating C variant thougth you want to believe that rather than look at the links and see that it is about performance of currently available Gripen C variant while information about NG/E isn't available thus that is why I used C because it is available.

Anyway Gripen C/D MSR will be upgraded and the upgrade is substantial...

Saab reveals enhanced radar for Gripen C/D fighter - IHS Jane's 360

@C130

Gripen E for defensive by its design, Eurofighter Typhoon should be for offensive.

 

[C130]

@anon45

How did you conclude that I am advocating C iteration for Canada? How? Because of the links? Okay, so you are again jumping to conclusion as usual because I am not advocating C variant thougth you want to believe that rather than look at the links and see that it is about performance of currently available Gripen C variant while information about NG/E isn't available thus that is why I used C because it is available.

Anyway Gripen C/D MSR will be upgraded and the upgrade is substantial...

Saab reveals enhanced radar for Gripen C/D fighter - IHS Jane's 360

@C130

Gripen E for defensive by its design, Eurofighter Typhoon should be for offensive.

I really don't care for much for Gripen or NG when the F-16 blk 52 is superior in every way.


would think a two engine jet would be mandatory for Canada as well.

 

[yugocrosrb95]

I really don't care for much for Gripen or NG when the F-16 blk 52 is superior in every way.

Oh great... Another uninformed/biased American?!?...

F-16 does one sortie per day compared to Gripen which does two per day thus it can do more damage in the long run and it is considerably easier to detect F-16 than Gripen C.

would think a two engine jet would be mandatory for Canada as well.

How did you conclude that I thougth that a two engine jet is mandatory for Canada? I haven't said that and no it isn't mandatory, look at F35 which is a single engine jet too like Gripen.

I reccomended Typhoon because not of it being a two engine jet, but because of its design which is more offensive while Gripen is defensive by its nature.

 

[Al-Taïr]

What about YF 23 programme, the bird looks nice? Any expert opinion.

The program never entered the production phase. YF23 "Black Widow" was the first 5th gen fighter of USA produced by northrop but lockhead's F22 "Raptor" was won the contract for USAAF's fifth gen fighter.


Just as boeing's X-32 lost to lockhead's F-35