Canada May Dump F-35, Open New Competition

[Carach Angren]

With Canada Usa have open borders, share unified electic system, so usa don't feel any threat or problem with canada

No open border. Post 9/11, open border agreement was scrapped. You need visa and papers to cross border now. Border crossing looks like this.

Went to New, York in 1999 with my family. Flew into Toronto, drive to Buffalo, then New, York. At that time Customs asked us where we go and why. No papers, no visa. Now, I try again. I need visa this time.

No open border between Canada and America.

 

[knight11]

Isnt both jets totally different one is multirole ( F-35 ) and other for air superiority ( F-22) ?

Are their really any threats to Canada ??
I dont think they have any enemy but yes they are busy making one in ME

F-22 is airsuperiority but it is also a potent dogfighter. F-35 is multirole but more focus on penetrating the SAM network specially on the first days of the war. Canada is not going to wage a war without USA with anybody not even with Uganda.
F-22 ensure air superiority in canadian airspace, and F-18 long range multirole duties.

When we talk about 5th Gen its the whole network, and F-35 or F-22 is just a small part of the system. So when you buy F-35 you need to get all the satellite, C-4i , JStar network to work and work as a 5th gen that obviously is with the control and hands of USA. So even if you buy F-35, without having all the systems in network I mentioned above, the F-35 is just another F-16, and if you have all the system in hand a F-18 with internal weapon is more than enough to complete the F-35 job

No open border. Post 9/11, open border agreement was scrapped. You need visa and papers to cross border now. Border crossing looks like this.

Went to New, York in 1999 with my family. Flew into Toronto, drive to Buffalo, then New, York. At that time Customs asked us where we go and why. No papers, no visa. Now, I try again. I need visa this time.

No open border between Canada and America.

Ok but you cannot deny that both countries don't feels any threat with each other, and even have a unified electric network. People too find closed to each other.

 

[Blue Marlin]

F-22 is airsuperiority but it is also a potent dogfighter. F-35 is multirole but more focus on penetrating the SAM network specially on the first days of the war. Canada is not going to wage a war without USA with anybody not even with Uganda.
F-22 ensure air superiority in canadian airspace, and F-18 long range multirole duties.

When we talk about 5th Gen its the whole network, and F-35 or F-22 is just a small part of the system. So when you buy F-35 you need to get all the satellite, C-4i , JStar network to work and work as a 5th gen that obviously is with the control and hands of USA. So even if you buy F-35, without having all the systems in network I mentioned above, the F-35 is just another F-16, and if you have all the system in hand a F-18 with internal weapon is more than enough to complete the F-35 job


Ok but you cannot deny that both countries don't feels any threat with each other, and even have a unified electric network. People too find closed to each other.

where did uganda come from?

 

[knight11]

where did uganda come from?

LOLZ are you tracking me my friend.

 

[Blue Marlin]

i saw you in the shoutbox and thought i will say hi.

 

[jhungary]

There have been many analyst who spoke on this and wants Rafale instead of F-35, even in Austalia also. Hidden agenda they (canada & Aussies) wants F-22 instead of F-35.
Some experts even adviced to go for Su-35 instead of F-35 LOLZ



In the end they will go for F-35, after all US is the one who have the Umbrella



They should go for F/A-18E or Rafale and F-35A. and they will go the same I think

Nobody in Australia have a sane mind will want F-22, they are an Hassel to maintain and they cost way too much even if US decided to sell us those. Beside that self proclaimed Aviation expert Dr Carlos Kopp, which call himself defence expert with 2 F-18/F-15 flight sims section...And his Dr is about Computer Science...

Canada actually have only a little choice, they have the NORAD to take care of with the US, and they have to be 100% able to assimilate to the USAF standard, hence they can only operate US made aircraft.....

 

[The Eagle]

What about YF 23 programme, the bird looks nice? Any expert opinion.

 

[Jlaw]

No open border. Post 9/11, open border agreement was scrapped. You need visa and papers to cross border now. Border crossing looks like this.

Went to New, York in 1999 with my family. Flew into Toronto, drive to Buffalo, then New, York. At that time Customs asked us where we go and why. No papers, no visa. Now, I try again. I need visa this time.

No open border between Canada and America.

There was never open border between Canada-US before 9/11. Before 9/11 you need a minimum a Canadian driver's license to cross border. After 9/11 you need passport

 

[Blue Marlin]

Nobody in Australia have a sane mind will want F-22, they are an Hassel to maintain and they cost way too much even if US decided to sell us those. Beside that self proclaimed Aviation expert Dr Carlos Kopp, which call himself defence expert with 2 F-18/F-15 flight sims section...And his Dr is about Computer Science...

Canada actually have only a little choice, they have the NORAD to take care of with the US, and they have to be 100% able to assimilate to the USAF standard, hence they can only operate US made aircraft.....

true, but norad has nothing to do with the air force. norad is a very long range radar used to detect and track ballistic missiles. unless f35's have a radar that acts as an extension to norad. which i doubt.

true canada does not have much of an option. but they may just live with it and operate lower numbers of f35's to maintain the costs.

but boeing will see this as an opportunity and propose a f18 which is more advanced to what they currently have. so thats a possible yet very likely solution.

 

[Carach Angren]

true, but norad has nothing to do with the air force.

NORAD has a lot to do with the Air Force for both America and Canada. NORAD monitors air traffic for both countries boundaries and airspace.

Alaska NORAD Region

The Alaska NORAD Region (ANR) maintains continuous capability to detect, validate and warn of any atmospheric threat in its area of operations from its Regional Operations Control Center (ROCC) at Joint Base Elmendorf–Richardson, Alaska (which is an amalgamation of the United States Air Force's Elmendorf Air Force Base and the United States Army's Fort Richardson, which were merged in 2010).

ANR also maintains the readiness to conduct a continuum of aerospace control missions, which include daily air sovereignty in peacetime, contingency and/or deterrence in time of tension, and active air defense against manned and unmanned air-breathing atmospheric vehicles in times of crisis.

ANR is supported by both active duty and reserve units. Active duty forces are provided by 11 AF and the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF), and reserve forces provided by the Alaska Air National Guard. Both 11 AF and the CAF provide active duty personnel to the ROCC to maintain continuous surveillance of Alaskan airspace.

Canadian NORAD Region

1 Canadian Air Division/Canadian NORAD Region Headquarters is at CFB Winnipeg, Manitoba. It is responsible for providing surveillance and control of Canadian airspace. TheRoyal Canadian Air Force provides alert assets to NORAD. CANR is divided into two sectors, which are designated as the Canada East Sector and Canada West Sector. Both Sector Operations Control Centers (SOCCs) are co-located at CFB North Bay Ontario. The routine operation of the SOCCs includes reporting track data, sensor status and aircraft alert status to NORAD headquarters.

Canadian air defense forces assigned to NORAD include 409 Tactical Fighter Squadron at CFB Cold Lake, Alberta and 425 Tactical Fighter Squadron at CFB Bagotville, Quebec. All squadrons fly the McDonnell Douglas CF-18 Hornet fighter aircraft.



NORAD also does missile defense and early warning.

Clear Air Force Station

Pave paws radar

Clear Air Force Station ("Clear" colloq.) is an Alaska Air National Guard radar station for detecting incoming ICBMs andsubmarine-launched ballistic missiles to NORAD's Missile Correlation Center (MCC) and to provide Space Surveillance data to Air Force Space Command's Space Control Center (SCC). Clear's AN/FPS-123 Upgraded Early Warning Radar is part of the Solid State Phased Array Radar System (SSPARS) which also includes those at Beale AFB, Cape Cod AFS, RAF Fylingdales and Thule Site J.

 

[knight11]

What about YF 23 programme, the bird looks nice? Any expert opinion.

I think USNAF should be interested in YF-23

 

[SipahSalar]

This is great news. When Canada pulls out, it will result in a snowball effect. As it will raise the price of F-35 program even further. That will lead to even more governments leaving the program, causing its price to keep rising in a vicious cycle.

 

[Carach Angren]

This is great news. When Canada pulls out, it will result in a snowball effect. As it will raise the price of F-35 program even further. That will lead to even more governments leaving the program, causing its price to keep rising in a vicious cycle.

How will it raise prices? Canada has no F-35 contract, just a verbal agreement.

The Government of Canada has only stated an intention to purchase the F-35 and there is no contract to purchase any yet. There would be no cancellation fees if the government chose not to proceed, although Canadian contractors might lose F-35-related contracts as a result. Should they purchase the F-35, RCAF pilots may receive flight training either from the USAF or from contractors to allow the RCAF to devote more aircraft to the operational fleet. The F-35 did not feature in the federal budget tabled in March 2012 and was not mentioned in the Conservative Party 2015 election platform.

America, Norway, Japan, UK, they have contracts. Canada does not have a purchasing contract, no price will be effected by Canada's reneging.

Canada will lose money, sunk costs, that were used during development, but have no bearing on the airframe cost going forward.

Canada's initial participation in the JSF project required a US$10 million investment from DND to be an "informed partner" during the evaluation process. Once Lockheed Martin was selected as the primary contractor for the JSF project, Canada elected to become a level-three participant (along with Norway, Denmark, Turkey, and Australia) in the JSF project. An additional US$100 million from DND over 10 years and another $50 million from IC were dedicated in 2002.

Canada also loses contracts for the F-35, which harms its economy, though the money saved will be spent in other places.

As a result of the Government of Canada's investment in the JSF project, 144 contracts were awarded to Canadian companies, universities, and government facilities. Financially, the contracts are valued at US$490 million for the period 2002 to 2012, with an expected value of US$1.1 billion from current contracts in the period between 2013 and 2023, and a total potential estimated value of Canada's involvement in the JSF project from US$4.8 billion to US$6.8 billion. By 2013 the potential benefits to Canadian firms had risen to $9.9 billion.

 

[Blue Marlin]

NORAD has a lot to do with the Air Force for both America and Canada. NORAD monitors air traffic for both countries boundaries and airspace.

Alaska NORAD Region

The Alaska NORAD Region (ANR) maintains continuous capability to detect, validate and warn of any atmospheric threat in its area of operations from its Regional Operations Control Center (ROCC) at Joint Base Elmendorf–Richardson, Alaska (which is an amalgamation of the United States Air Force's Elmendorf Air Force Base and the United States Army's Fort Richardson, which were merged in 2010).

ANR also maintains the readiness to conduct a continuum of aerospace control missions, which include daily air sovereignty in peacetime, contingency and/or deterrence in time of tension, and active air defense against manned and unmanned air-breathing atmospheric vehicles in times of crisis.

ANR is supported by both active duty and reserve units. Active duty forces are provided by 11 AF and the Canadian Armed Forces (CAF), and reserve forces provided by the Alaska Air National Guard. Both 11 AF and the CAF provide active duty personnel to the ROCC to maintain continuous surveillance of Alaskan airspace.

Canadian NORAD Region

1 Canadian Air Division/Canadian NORAD Region Headquarters is at CFB Winnipeg, Manitoba. It is responsible for providing surveillance and control of Canadian airspace. TheRoyal Canadian Air Force provides alert assets to NORAD. CANR is divided into two sectors, which are designated as the Canada East Sector and Canada West Sector. Both Sector Operations Control Centers (SOCCs) are co-located at CFB North Bay Ontario. The routine operation of the SOCCs includes reporting track data, sensor status and aircraft alert status to NORAD headquarters.

Canadian air defense forces assigned to NORAD include 409 Tactical Fighter Squadron at CFB Cold Lake, Alberta and 425 Tactical Fighter Squadron at CFB Bagotville, Quebec. All squadrons fly the McDonnell Douglas CF-18 Hornet fighter aircraft.



NORAD also does missile defense and early warning.

Clear Air Force Station

Pave paws radar

Clear Air Force Station ("Clear" colloq.) is an Alaska Air National Guard radar station for detecting incoming ICBMs andsubmarine-launched ballistic missiles to NORAD's Missile Correlation Center (MCC) and to provide Space Surveillance data to Air Force Space Command's Space Control Center (SCC). Clear's AN/FPS-123 Upgraded Early Warning Radar is part of the Solid State Phased Array Radar System (SSPARS) which also includes those at Beale AFB, Cape Cod AFS, RAF Fylingdales and Thule Site J.

its prime purpose is to detect and track missiles. they are not good in monitoring airspace for all of the us and canada, as they face upwards towards space and the boundary for commercial airlines 25000-41000 is good, but not good enough to monitor the entire airspace. i know norad is not a single radar installation. it is a series of radars scattered around both countries to give them both the ability to monitor and track missiles in the eventuality of a launch.

I think USNAF should be interested in YF-23

they should have chosen that over the f22. i think they will use ideas from the yd-23 to their 6th gen fighter. examples being it's tail config, engine exhaust/outlet and nose/radar dome.

 

[knight11]

its prime purpose is to detect and track missiles. they are not good in monitoring airspace for all of the us and canada, as they face upwards towards space and the boundary for commercial airlines 25000-41000 is good, but not good enough to monitor the entire airspace. i know norad is not a single radar installation. it is a series of radars scattered around both countries to give them both the ability to monitor and track missiles in the eventuality of a launch.

It was created because they fear that Soviet are going to attack from Alaska with their Tu Bomber to Invade USA and Canada.