Can we discuess this here?

[Keysersoze]

Dont complain if you get banned


"They died because musharraf made a bad decision, If he didn't had bombed the madersa in first place this wouldn't have happened. Ask someone who lost their child in the bombing; wouldn't he be angry at the army? wouldn't he seek revenge? its in the human nature.

"

Yes and that justifies everything..........
Maybe someone should explain to you the idea of two wrongs don't make a right.......

Mansoor. I understand that you were trying to make a point. However think upon this. If I posted a picture of dead man with an Ak47 and used that to rationalise an arguement that the war on terror was working. Would my point benefit from this? Or would I just be "sensationalising" it?

 

[Sid]

Here the list of those who were killed in Bajour attacked, and sadly none of them where AQ members. They were Pakistani.

The list was issued on the The News 05 Nov 2006.

It was claimed that one of the deceased was only seven-year old, three were eight, three nine, one was 10, four were 11, four were 12, eight were 13, six were 14, nine were 15, 19 were 16, 12 were 17, three were 18, three were 19 and only two were 21-year old.

The names, father names, ages and addresses of the deceased are as follows: Maulvi Liaqat Ali (34), son of Abdur Rahim, Mohammad Tahir (16), Maulvi Khaleefa, Azizul Wahab (15), son of Aseer Mohammad, Fazal Wahab (16), son of Sada Khan, Ziauddin (16), son of Nader Khan, Mohammad Yunus (16), son of Rahim Jan and Fazal Hakim (19), son of Gul Rahman, Ilyas (13), son of Syed Rahim Jan, Sohail (07), son of Abul Wahab, Asadullah (09), son of Mohibullah, Shoaib (08), son of Nisaruddin, Khalilullah (09), son of Khan, Noor Mohammad (08), son Hazrat Mohammad, Khalid (12), Saifullah (09), son of Azizur Rahman, residents of Inamkhwaro Chingai, Mamond tehsil of Bajaur Agency.

Razi Mohammad (16, son of Gul Hasan Khan and Mashooq Jan (15), son of Mian Gul Bacha, residents of Darra Salarzai, Bajaur.

Nawab (17), son of Mirzada, Sultanat Khan (16), son of Shamsur Rahman, Ziaur Rahman (13), son of Mursaleen, Noor Mohammad (15), son of Chanai, Mohammad Yaas Khan (16) son of Fazlur Rahman, Qari Alamzeb (14), son of Karim, residents of Ghundai, Salarzai, Bajaur.

Ghulam Nabi (21), son of Baacha Khan, Ziaur Rahman (17), son of Maulvi Taj Mohammad, Abdullah (18), son of Mohammad Zada, Ikramullah (17), son of Sultan Zamin, Inayatur Rahman (16) and Shahbuddin (15), sons of Fateh Rahman, Yahya Khan (16), son of Maulvi Zamin, Rahatullah, (17), son of Maulvi Jan Zamin, Khan (21), Mohammad Salim (11), son of Mohammad Karim and Shahjehan (15), residents of Damadola, Bajaur.

Gul Sher Khan (15), son of Habibur Rahman, Bakht Muneer (14), Numair (14), son of Mirullah Khan, Mashooq Khan (16), residents of Gatkai Mamond, Bajaur.

Ihsanullah (16), resident of Pashat, Salarzai. Luqman (12) and Jannatullah (13), residents of Kasai Salarzai, Bajaur.

Ismail (12), son of Maulvi Said Ahmad, Tangai Salarzai, Bajaur Agency. Taseel Khan (18), resident of Wara Kharkai Mamond, Bajaur.

Zaheeruddin (16), son of Sirajuddin and Qari Ishaq (19), son of Lali Maula, residents of Chingazo Khaar, Bajaur.

Jamshed Khan (14) and Alam Nabi (11), sons of Mohammad Khan, residents of Maina Mamond, Bajaur.

Qari Abdul Karim (19), son of Abdullah and Rahmatullah (14), residents of Zorbandar, Bajaur.

Abdus Samad (17), son of Baacha Ustaz, Siraj (16) son of Ghani, residents of Qung Salarzai, Bajaur.

Saeedullah (17), son of Daryab, residents of Kamarsar, Bajaur.

Abdul Waris (16), son of Musafir, resident of Siddiqabad, Bajaur.

Darvesh (13), Ameer Said (15) and Shaukat (14), residents of Mohmand Agency.

Inayatur Rahman (17), son of Rafiullah, Kumbar Maidan, district Dir.

Salman (16), son of Said Malook, Fazal Wahab (18), Baacha Rahman (13), residents of Swat.

Wali-ur-Rahman (17) and Iftikhar (17), son of Sher Zaman, resident of district Sawabi.

Inayatullah (15), resident of district Dir. Adnan (16), Najibullah (13), Naeemullah (17), Hizbullah (10), Kitab Gul (12), Wilayat Khan (11), Zabihullah (16), Shehzad Gul (11), residents of Nooristan, Afghanistan.

Shabir (15), son of Gulamin Jan, residents of Seevai Mamond, Bajaur, Qari Sharifullah (17), son of Azam Khan, Shafiullah (16), residents of Badan Mamond.

Nimatullah (14), resident of Pashat Salarzai, Bajaur. Shakirullah (16), son of Salim Jan, residnet of Dabar Mamond, Bajaur.

Talha (08), son of Ghulam Rasool, resident of Harichand, district Charsadda.

While the age of one Jamroz Khan, son of Mashooq Khan, resident of Sango Salarzai, Bajaur could not be ascertained.

Have these been confirmed by an independant source? We just dont take things at face-value, even if the NEWS somehow managed to grab this list from a disgrunted tribal to sell more copies of their paper or have more 'hits' on their website.

 

[Mansoor A Qureshi]

Who will decide, who is right and who is wrong? Which info is credible and which is just crap, From where we can get the right knowledge? Who is speaking the truth and who is lieing? Army is no more trusted and regarded the way it was back in 65 and position is still on the decline as far as i am concern, i maybe wrong but this is what i think, PA is involve in all the scams right now, i dont know what to say whether the media is projecting this way or there is some truth in it........
Anyway the DARGAI incident was the worst case of terrorism, i deeply condemn that incident from the bottom of my heart, all the nation is sad on this, They were all martyred.
"Inna lillahay va inna illahay rajioun"

Mansoor

 

[Awesome]

Did they found any weapons cache in the madersa? any AK-47's? RPG's? IED's ?

The only thing they found were the burned copies of quran lying around the dead children.

What happened at the recruiting center was wrong but it was triggered by the bombing of madersa in first place, the tribal people are not doing this for fun; they want to settle the score by killing as many army people as possible.
I hope we don't see another civil war; many rouge nations and their pawns are waiting to take advantage of this situation.

We got Maulvi Liaqat, who had been running a militant training program in there. He was killed in this attack, was he there to use the toilet?

 

[Spring Onion]

I lost the track guys was this the topic we were discussing

 

[Bull]

Here the list of those who were killed in Bajour attacked, and sadly none of them where AQ members. They were Pakistani.

the list shows too many teenagers.but then how do you know whether they are AQ or not by looking at the list?

 

[Spring Onion]

Bull we dont need to look at the list.
i live here and we had collected all the data and also had talked to families of the victims and indeed there were kids and innocent among killed.

i dont say action should not be taken against the criminals but in this case

the US attack had killed innocent people.
as far those involve in terror traning they should be punish as strictly as anything.

 

[Mansoor A Qureshi]

Bull we dont need to look at the list.
i live here and we had collected all the data and also had talked to families of the victims and indeed there were kids and innocent among killed.

i dont say action should not be taken against the criminals but in this case

the US attack had killed innocent people.
as far those involve in terror traning they should be punish as strictly as anything.

Quite right jana jee and the second thing as well we are off the track, the topic started from Lahore and ending on DARGAI, Musharaf and PA
But all these things are attached all together....... Isnt it?

 

[ali ahmad]

did we got pakistan to make it a 2nd turkey....???
our fathers were the supporters of khilafat....we got this beautifull country yo make it a heaven on earth...by folloing islamic principals....did we succeded...??.....

 

[Awesome]

I lost the track guys was this the topic we were discussing

The underlying topic, Musharraf is God in Pakistan. Like everything good or bad that happens is the work of God, for Pakistanis its the work of Musharraf.

 

[Mansoor A Qureshi]

did we got pakistan to make it a 2nd turkey....???
our fathers were the supporters of khilafat....we got this beautifull country yo make it a heaven on earth...by folloing islamic principals....did we succeded...??.....

Well said ali, as far as i am concern there is no individualism in Islam, Islam means devotion and guide other muslims as well like "Daavaah" this is not an excuse that every person has its own private life, when ever we are talking like this means we are going away from Islam, Our religion tells us to keep close check at everything and surrounding, If we are not guiding our children, wives, brothers, sisters what to do and what not to do, how to wear and what to wear and what not to wear then we are guilty as well, but we always talk about others and dont care what is happening under our very nose, we must stop this invasion before its too late, we are forgetting the thics and basics of our religion, Thats why often discuessed that Pakistan is heading to be called and converted it to the second turkey and that will not be good for Islam and Muslims, Our nation is being slow poisened. Thats where our so called leaders, mushy and others come into play but it is the duty of every muslim and Pakistani to keep the integrity intact.

Regards

Mansoor

 

[Awesome]

Well we can stop crimes, and I'm not against that. As long as one's freedom does not affect anyone else's freedom, it's okay by me.

Children should be kept away from alcohol. Everyone should be kept away from drugs.
No one should drive under influence.
Nobody should be forced into any sexual behavior.

You can encourage adult people not to drink anyway. You can ask them not to have pre-marital or extra-marital sex. But you cannot for it onto them. You can tell them its wrong and you should either be convincing enough (meaning your explanation of Islam should be convincing enough - Islam should be convincing enough) that the person CHOOSES to not do things like that. If he wanted to do it and you only threatened him to jail and so he didn't do it, then you've achieved no miracle. The person is still immoral, you're just holding him back forcibly.

 

[Mansoor A Qureshi]

Nobody should be forced into any sexual behavior.

Well asim if someone that is not underage and wants to have sex or there is another word ADULTRY he is allowed to do it? Bro these are not the values of a Muslim surrounding, anyway you live in dubai and i live in Peshawar/Pakistan that can create a big difference in thoughts and ideas, You wont see the things happening too often or surfaced in my city that happen a bit too often in other cities, i am talking about an islamic state not a liberal or secular state.
Being muslim and living in an Islamic state gives us some duties but as i have mentioned that we muslims are no more practical muslims we are brain washed and slow poisened slowly, if i start to compare what you telling me regarding the sexual behavior there is nothing in our religion bro regarding sexual or non sexual behaviour, there is a proper criteria for everything, only marriage can allow you for these activities and only with your life partner, no one else, not willingly nor forcibly, even you cant even think about it,
We muslims must get back to learn basics first then we should discuess this


Regards


Mansoor

 

[Awesome]

Well asim if someone that is not underage and wants to have sex or there is another word ADULTRY he is allowed to do it? Bro these are not the values of a Muslim surrounding, anyway you live in dubai and i live in Peshawar/Pakistan that can create a big difference in thoughts and ideas, You wont see the things happening too often or surfaced in my city that happen a bit too often in other cities, i am talking about an islamic state not a liberal or secular state.

Theocratic and Islamic states are two different things.

Tell me if a consenting adult man and woman resort to adultery how are you going to prevent it?

I'm not saying that, adultery should not happen. You should do your best to teach those values to your children so when they grow up, they remain far from such sins.

But suppose that happens still? The adulterer gets a divorce. The unmarried person (male or female) gets a reputation (bad one). There are consequences, but social ones, not criminal.

Don't discount Dubai out so fast. Dubai is not conservative but isn't all far left liberal either. Dubai just gives you a choice. While there are plenty of options here to go do things 10 times more extreme than what's mentioned in that article, but the majority over here chooses to be moderate and thus we're normal people.

Being muslim and living in an Islamic state gives us some duties but as i have mentioned that we muslims are no more practical muslims we are brain washed and slow poisened slowly, if i start to compare what you telling me regarding the sexual behavior there is nothing in our religion bro regarding sexual or non sexual behaviour, there is a proper criteria for everything, only marriage can allow you for these activities and only with your life partner, no one else, not willingly nor forcibly, even you cant even think about it,
We muslims must get back to learn basics first then we should discuess this

You use words like "allow", "islamic state", "can't even think about i"...

What if they don't want to be Muslims and don't care about it all? Isn't it part of their freedom to not be Muslims? Or be bad Muslims?

Thinking like that has brought about the Hasba Bill, where they think its alright to enforce Islam to even people who don't want Islam. Islam at gunpoint...

I remember that in Surah Baqarah, Allah stated in no unclear terms "There is no compulsion in religion". Meaning what? Encourage Islam, but don't compel others do be Islamic. Are you ready to throw away the clear statements of the Quran for your higher morals? Just because you are unable to convince people to follow a moralistic life, just because you are unable to make people good Muslims you are going to forgo the Quran and take it upon yourself to reinvent Islam as to whatever you seem fit?

Either you accept the Quran or you reject it... Either you reject your compelling force or you accept that "there is no compulsion in religion".

 

[Sid]

i am talking about an islamic state not a liberal or secular state.

Lets just say, you need to revisit Jinnah's vision for Pakistan. It was to be a liberal democracy or at the very least a 'moderate' one! Not a fundamentalist, religious theocracy as the Mullahs who've hijacked Pakistan's ideology would have you believe!