Can Babur and Raad penitrate Indian defence system

[Major Shaitan Singh]

Detection

The greatest challenge for a cruise missile defense is the detection and tracking of the missile early enough to engage it before it reaches its target. A viable cruise missile defense will have as its goal the earliest possible detection of a missile after its launch. Sensor detection capabilities should be pushed out to as far a distance as possible from the areas defended to allow as much time as possible to track and intercept the missile. Also, in homeland defense, intercepting the attacking missile out over the ocean lessens the consequence management implications than over populated areas on land. Achieving this requires the ability to detect and launch an interceptor quickly so as to extend intercept ranges to the farthest point possible. Cruise missile flight paths make detection a particularly challenging undertaking. Shorter range missiles offer little reaction time. The missiles fly close to the Earth’s surface, and advanced systems are programmed to use topography (valleys, hills,
and mountains) and the Earth’s curvature to mask their approach from detection by the defender. Traditional approaches to CMD were specific, i.e., the defense of a particular point such as a naval vessel or military base, and relied on radar to fulfill the detection mission. By virtue of their size and design, cruise missiles present small radar cross sections (RCS) during head-on intercept, which is the method employed by most point defenses.124 Generally, low-flying objects are difficult to detect against other ground objects and sea-backgrounds. The radar must locate a faint cruise missile signal against “the hundreds of thousands of echoed returns from signals created by ground clutter.”125 Ground-based radars have gaps in their field of coverage that allow lowflying objects, like cruise missiles, to exploit the curvature of the Earth. Defense of wider areas requires complementing the ground-based radar with air- or space-borne
assets to provide more time to detect and track and result in more opportunities for interception.

Both the Air Force’s Airborne Warning and Control System
(AWACS) and the Navy’s E-2 Hawkeye Airborne Early Warning (AEW) aircraft are tasked with detecting and tracking airborne threats at the greatest possible distances,and with directing combat aircraft and anti-air batteries to deal with these air threats.

The Joint Land Attack Cruise Missile Defense Elevated Netted Sensor (JLENS) is a longer-term option for stationary airborne sensor missions.130 JLENS is an unpiloted, lighter-than-air vehicle,
essentially an unpowered, tethered balloon, used as an at-altitude radar observation platform. Operating at 10,000 to 15,000 feet, the JLENS can look down over the horizon and down into otherwise-hidden terrain, to scan for cruise missiles.

Interceptors

Once an attacking cruise missile is located, the next major challenge is to shoot it down. Combat aircraft and ship-borne defense systems are the two principal means currently at the India’s disposal to shoot down cruise missiles. The Sypder, Iron Dome, Barak II, S300/400 and Advanced Air Defence system offers the most viable option for deployment in the near-term of a cost effective wide area defense

All current Indian front-line fighters since the Navy’s MIG 29k have been equipped with look-down, shoot-down, pulse-Doppler radar. This radar technology was designed from the outset to “see” and direct air-to-air missiles against airborne targets flying at low altitudes against ground clutter. All front-line Indian fighter aircraft can carry the AMRAAM active-radar homing air-to-air missile, with a range of up to 110 km.The newly deployed SU 30 MKI air-dominance fighter is also said to have improved cruise missile defense capabilities.Other potential platforms for the ALHTK include the MIG 29, Mirage 2000 , and Jaguar .These weapons would then be carried by aircraft flying Combat Air Patrols to provide area defense against all aerial threats.

Only the construction of an active defense ensures the ability to
intercept and destroy cruise missiles after they have been launched.
Only an active defense deployed on a wide-area scale can defend the
cities.

 

[baker]

But in practical situation.. enemy will launch cruise missiles in massive numbers... in that case shooting sown with Fighters gonna be difficult....

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Even terrain hugging missiles can be tracked by radars. And I hope you already know, that when in terrain hugging mode, the range of a missile is easily reduced to 1/4th of its original range, due to much higher drag, and denser atmosphere.

If the missile is targeted at some place that is 20-30 kms within Indian border, then there is little we can do to stop it, but if you are thinking of hitting something 400-500 kms within India, that will be very tough to do.

^^^
You make sense in the above.

Another factor is the terrain that the cruise missile has to fly over. That factor will control how easily (or not) the cruise missile is detected by Ground based or Airborne Radar systems.
E.G. a cruise missile flying over the Arabian sea, deserts of Sind/Rajasthan, the plains of Punjab and the undulating terrain of J & K.
Now factor that into the scenario as well. That will be more realistic.

 

[illuminatidinesh]

The Indian system is not aimed at shielding the entire border as some think. We are trying to achieve defending few important targets. For that we are capable enough and work is underway in the right direction.

 

[kriish]

Hi All

No Flames Please real Time scanerio


Can any one pls explain the threats of babur and Raad and how we will counter it.

Can babur Pentitrate Spyder Defence or can Spyder Defence intercepted Babur

Can babur Pentitrate Iron Dome or can Iron Dome intercepted Babur

Second Stage Can babur Pentitrate S300 or or can S300 intercepted Babur
Iron Dome vs Babur

Lets Discuss some of the points

An effective cruise missile defense must have four basic elements. Those elements are:
■ the capability to detect and then track a cruise missile after it is launched;
■ interceptors to destroy the attacking cruise missile;
■ a battle management and communications network that ties the first two elements
together and allows for seamless real-time engagements; and
■ the ability to effectively predict and manage the consequences of a cruise missile
attack.

well sir this topic sounds like................ asking a hungry man starving for days sitting in a buffet with all delicious food and not to eat the food........... do u really think it is going to work..............

 

[Nav]

If we(army/taliban/tribes-men) can shoot down Tomahawk cruise missile, than indians can shoot down babur that is based on tomahawk.

when did taliban shot down tomhawk, they were just mis targeted and fall in pakistani terrotairy.

 

[my name is arya]

good thread guys just talk with logic both

indian and pakistani brother let talk wth logic and see what is the resut

hope mod will not sleep in the thread

 

[Tiger Awan]

If the incoming Missile's destination is somewhere very close to the Indian border, then it's unlikely to be intercepted before it reaches target. However, if the Radars have already detected the Missile while it was some 100 (or more) kilometers inside Pakistani airspace, then it might be intercepted. As the range increases, the probability of the missile getting intercepted increases. Because of the slow speed it is also possible to shoot it down through conventional means.

Laser based Missile defence systems are being developed but they haven't been proven as of now.

thats what AWACS can do, so it also depend how many AWACS are operating at the border.

 

[naumananjum]

But in practical situation.. enemy will launch cruise missiles in massive numbers... in that case shooting sown with Fighters gonna be difficult....

agree to this

 

[SBD-3]

IMHO a few points
1- While both sub and supersonic missiles have their advantages, they do have their disadvantages too.For example, a subsonic missile can hug the train with ease because its speed allows it to adjust accordingly. Thus its very very difficult for Ground/Sea based radars to detect it, but once detected, they are relatively easier to intercept due to their low speed and longer time to reach to the target. But difficult detection is the major reason why most of the western missiles are subsonic. Supersonic missiles on the other hand, have certain advantages too. Firstly, they have kinetic energy on their side, so they have longer ranges and more impact i.e. damage on target and thirdly lesser time to reach making interception critically precise. However, they have limited train hugging as supersonic speeds make their maneuverability very limited and secondly, as they fly at a distance from terrain if supersonic, this also makes their detection possible at relatively longer ranges than terrain hugging subsonic cruise missiles, Russian and Chinese Missiles usually follow this philosophy

2- Spyder is not a long range SAM, as both Derby and Python missiles will have their ranges drastically reduced as compared to A2A deployment when they have kinetic energy on their side. We would also have to consider the ground clutter and ground heat emissions as possible distraction for any intercepting missile. On the other hand Intercepting supersonic missile would solely rely on the precision of interception as intercepting this will be just like intercepting a bullet.
So crux is that it will be very difficult to 1) Find 2) Successful Engage the incoming CMs even if there is adequate ground coverage.

 

[SEAL]

Yes Babur and Ra'ad can penetrate Ind air defence your forces will never know what hit them.

 

[Avatar]

your forces will never know what hit them.

Correct assumption, because the missile will be neutralized before it hits our forces

 

[graphican]

i love this thread. ALL USERS SHOULD COME UP WITH CALCULATIONS. PLEASE SPARE ALLAMA IQBAL AND GHAZWAE HIND FOR A WHILE.

What has this to do with tracking of missiles?

Off topic but you know Ghazwatulhind Ahadis are Credible and one can talk about them any time of the day and week but in some thread that is relevant.

 

[graphican]

Correct assumption, because the missile will be neutralized before it hits our forces

How is his statement an assumption and your statement a fact? Why because you are an Indian?

 

[graphican]

Yesterday I was thinking about the same subject and I was thinking may be cruise missiles would be the first attack from Pakistan in any future conflict because it is least likely to be intercepted and can make 100s of holes into enemy defense shield to be exploited later. I hope Indians would be aware of the fact and would like to defend themselves against it the earlier they could.

I'm no expert but may be Airborne radars would be in position to track these missiles form a distance which can make them prepare for its response but lets not forget a cruise missile is always changing its direction, speed and a consistent tracking of the target would be required. That means AWACS should be connected with the missile defense system and should keep steering the intersecting missile throughout its trajectory.

Now I wonder has Pakistan/China been thinking about an algorithm that can possibly enable a cruise missile change its trajectory considerably once it identifies it has been locked for an incoming intersecting missile..

Well not sure on that aspect.. may be I am thinking a little too much! But it is also likely because in any way.. Pakistan would have to incapacitate all those defense systems to be able to respond with Air-force because once those shields are broken, the Balletic Missiles could also be free for their once in a life time trip.