Can anyone tell me why India and Pakistan don’t get along?

[Joe Shearer]

Sadly, an antiphonal reciprocation to a simple query.

Actually, it started as a debunking of yet another conspiracy theory, then finished up in broadly amused mood at the far-fetched notion being peddled this time.

 

[Ticker]

Amazing post.

Understandably so ......

An illusionary living away from reality crediting illusions of another illusionary, also living far away from reality.

 

[Erhabi]

Solve Kashmir issue n everything will be just fine...n i m seein alot of Indians commenting on the issue of what Pakistanis shud put first religion or country...well i was a Muslim even before the existence of Pakistan..As far as I am concerned I got no relation with Indus valley civilization and my ancestors were exclusively Muslims not converted or anything..I put religion before my family too..but tht doesnt mean I cant do nothing for them...I can die n kill for them too...anyone can do tht for their family rite? but it is in our faith to love Allah and Muhammad(S.A.W) more than anything in the world...n tht doesnt mean we wont defend our country in times of war...so kindly keep this wht to put debate to ur India...we are fine with our faith and love our country while keeping the Islam alive in our hearts...I hope this will clear misconceptions of Indian members here..

 

[Ticker]

Actually, it started as a debunking of yet another conspiracy theory, then finished up in broadly amused mood at the far-fetched notion being peddled this time.

I heard many Indian intellectuals almost saying the same things that I referred to, on Indian TV.

I accept your answer, with a little bit of smirk - please allow me that.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I heard many Indian intellectuals almost saying the same things that I referred to, on Indian TV.

I accept your answer, with a little bit of smirk - please allow me that.

The smirk is not just acceptable, it is natural. Anyone thinking of our present leaders thinking deep strategic thoughts, creating the situations you described and doing it with any degree of success would have to have a smirk on his face, if not a broad grin.

 

[Raja.Pakistani]

It also means that a good portion of Pakistani population dont use common sense to justify actions because they feel everything is written in koran. So for any action they look at koran. Now koran is interpreted in a 100 diff ways. So instead of opposing some idiotic interpretation for taking an idiotic action, the sane people also look to koran and start quoting verses instead of saying that the action taken was plain stupid based on common sense and logic

First of all Quran was not book written by any man . Muslim believe verses of Quran was reveled by God through angels and was written by man and God himself took responsibility to preserve its message from any sort of distortion and it address all humanity not just Muslim and is valid for all ages. Secondly Quran is not against any kind of progress and positive change in society. If something was written centuries ago don’t become invalid today. You people are ignorant about Islamic fiqh(Islamic jurisprudence) as you don’t know that Muslim have concept like ijma(consensus of jurists and expert), ijtihad(human reasoning), giyas(analogical deductions) etc to address the issue of modern society. These all concepts cater the growing needs of society and muslim have been asked to use common sense and reasoning about something they are not sure.

Now message of Quran is open for interpretation. Many concepts of quran are very clear and no difference of opinions there while in many other things peoples have difference of opinion because of difference in interpretation. Some Muslim just make their mind and then go and try to interpret verses to make it fit with their own opinions while some just interpret Quran literally without understanding the historical context in which some verses were reveled . Why we see Taliban have strict or literal interpretation of Islam its because they are not educated. They cannot have research for themselves. They rely on opinions of those illiterate molvi who never went in school and never got basic education which is important for understanding the religion properly. When someone bring wrong interpretation of religion, we try to correct him because it give bad name to our religion islam. When someone will kill innocent in suicide attack and will consider it jihad then we would oppose him that such jihad is not Islamic. Well because he commit this wrong act considering it religious obligations that’s why sane people bring verse from his religion to point out that its wrong even according to his religion.

you will find most Indians clearly saying they are Indian before they are Hindu/Muslim/Sikh. Thats because religion is not put on individuals as heavily in India as it is in Pakistan.
Being Indian/Pakistani before being of an x/y/z religion does not mean accepting wrong actions of the state because you are nationalistic , as many have said here. It means your identity comes from your nation and thus you value the well being of your nation above all else. It doesnt mean supporting the Nation regardless of wrong actions taken by the State.

I personally feel blind nationalist is as dangerous as blind religious. My experience on this forum is that no Indian or Pakistani take any criticism on their nations from others . Nationalists are such blind that they call anyone traitor who say negative things about their country or say positive thing about enemy country as they assume their country is perfect and all evils belong to land of their enemy. Such approach is very close minded while a religious person who consider islam before nationality will be able to see the errors on both side because he know that country is run by politicians who can be corrupt and can create such conflicts which let people of both countries suffer.

I remember rahual gandi was labell as ISI agent because he said hindu extremist are dangerous for india then you read about khan who try to please Indians as much as possible by ignoring Islamic teaching but they also get label of traitor if say anything positive about Pakistan even salman khan has to make apology after commenting on 26/11 to please the sensitivity of Indians about their nation. Every second day you hear nationalist crying on how dare he insulted my flags. How dare he speak against my nation ? how dare he said anything positive about country of enemy? Why he don’t move to Pakistan if he like anything there?

in India such a thing is unimaginable because we know the community from which the person converted from would be highly offended. No television channel would do such a thing because in all likelyhood the channel that does it will be banned and prosecuted. However in Pakistan, its considered kosher because the state promotes one religion over all others. Now this means you are fraying relations with the minorities which is ridiculously bad for your nation Pakistan, while it maybe good for your religion Islam as it added a follower.

You see that is the problem with attitude of nationalist. They don’t look at themselves but put all efforts to find the errors in countries of others and I don’t know which channel you are talking about but whatever you said about conversion is true for india as well

[video] 102 Muslims Convert to Hinduism at Noida ,Uttar Pradesh-January,2012 - YouTube[/video]
[video] Muslims Convert to Hinduism-25 dec,2011-Aligarh, U.P, India - YouTube[/video]
[video] 75 Muslims Convert to Hinduism in Kolkata- 29 Jan, 2012 - YouTube[/video]

And trust me you can find many such videos. You can find all evils in India what you are looking in Pakistan. Its just matter of attitude and approach. There are also many zakir naiks in india who consider themselves muslim before india. There are also many hindutva who talk about hindu nationalism and not Indian nationalism because when they say "hindu" nationalism they exclude muslim and Christian because most of them think hindu is someone whose religion originated in this land.

In the gujarat riots, it was Hindus of India who have pushed and pushed to get convictions of those people who took part in the riots. The riots did not spread outside an area. The people chose their country over their religion. The people opposed the silence of the State of Gujarat. The people got convictions done in court. It was not silenced in the name of nationalism because of (maybe?) complicity of the State of Gujarat.

Sure you are right about approach of some really secular people but modi is still walking freely. Its like arresting the member of gangs but not the head of gangs when those who got convicted saying it openly that Modi and police help them in killing Muslims. My discussion was not the aftermath of riots but my point was why religious riots should happen in the first place when sense of nationality is stronger than religion? If all Hindu consider themselves Indians before hindu then they should not killed other innocent Indian Muslims just because they were Muslims and same is true for Muslims. Same logic apply to all other religious debate and conflicts of masjid and mandirs as they all become irrelevant when you place nationality or nation above religion.

The Muslim community in India is just as anti-Pak as the Hindus or the Budhists. So while there are actions that strain the idea of diversity in a nation, its what a nation does after those incidences is what makes the people and nation.

You see the problem of blind nationalism there. You are expecting Muslims of India to be anti-pak to prove their loyalty with India. Anti-pak would mean good indian patriot. It would also mean good open minded human beings. I have observed that it will not problem for Indian hindus as much as for indian muslims to say anything positive for Pakistan because they will be told to move in Pakistan or will label as traitor . Well some muslims in india had no choice but to stay in India. I personally feel Muslims of sub continent would have never demanded separate land if their Hindu friends would have treated them fairly and would have given them equal political and social rights. Think about it if all was well then why this trouble of struggling for new land? Why founder of Pakistan joined secular party congress and then left it and joined Muslim league? It was not just about religion but hey it was difficult for them to get these rights when some dalits are still struggling to achieve this social equality in india because some Brahman living in some village of India are Brahman before Indian

 

[ajtr]

You see that is the problem with attitude of nationalist. They don’t look at themselves but put all efforts to find the errors in countries of others and I don’t know which channel you are talking about but whatever you said about conversion is true for india as well
[video] 102 Muslims Convert to Hinduism at Noida ,Uttar Pradesh-January,2012 - YouTube[/video]
[video] Muslims Convert to Hinduism-25 dec,2011-Aligarh, U.P, India - YouTube[/video]
[video] 75 Muslims Convert to Hinduism in Kolkata- 29 Jan, 2012 - YouTube[/video]

One thing i don't get it ie how one can there be converted hindus.conversion is not..This is all arya samaji nonsense.Hindu is a born hindu not converted one even if i say raja pakistani is also an hindu then im not wrong.

 

[Ticker]

One thing i don't get it ie how one can there be converted hindus.conversion is not..This is all arya samaji nonsense.Hindu is a born hindu not converted one even if i say raja pakistani is also an hindu then im not wrong.

You are wrong.

I am an upper cast Brahmin.

 

[ajtr]

You are wrong.

I am an upper cast Brahmin.

kashyap brahmin...........

 

[Ticker]

kashyap brahmin...........

ye kya hota hai

 

[ajtr]

ye kya hota hai

naqalchi bandar....

 

[Ticker]

naqalchi bandar....

ha ha ha ......

It is such a marvelous picture.

But you still did not answer my question.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

@ raja Pakistani
see how your first sentence starts..that eliminates all possibilities of asking questions, or applying common sense against interpretations and see if it does really make sense or not, nobody dare to ask reasons for , or what occasion , culture , and time period or think if what is said or written can be applied now literally ?,Is it good for society..? nobody will think that if the society and culture advanced and we need to improvise, that why god has given us brains and logic ..and even in this forum I may be forgiven for speaking something against Pakistan but not if I criticise religion any further..so am stopping it right here..sorry if anybody offended.

yes being ultra nationalist can be as same as a blind religious follower.I have seen many Hindu ultra nationalists too.. but a level headed nationalist will criticise any wrong doing of govt, and authorities or it's actions as a nation because there is no holy cow attitude in matters of state..every thing including it's constitution , govt , to lowest level laws and actions come under scrutiny..and changes are made if necessary.Nationalistic people will not hesitate from accepting wrong doing happened in the past by the state because there no false sense of " it can't be wrong because it's holy " which is true in the case of religions.


About modi - Many people are suspicious about modi for his inaction during the riots but there is no credible evidence against him..so in front of the law he is not guilty.

Being nationalistic has nothing to with Gujarat riot.. it was a spontaneous response. Hindus were provoked by some bad elements in Muslim society and bad elements in Hindus reacted killing other innocent Muslims..i would not blame lack nationalism for this but false sense of religious belief .


Finally Every Muslim is as much as Indian as a Hindu is.. it is the ultra nationalist Hindus which is a tiny fraction of our society rant in the public forums to the Muslims to get lost..But every liberal, nationalistic Hindu or Christian will always oppose such ideologys..yes we will be called " pseudo secular " for that..but it's the cost of staying neutral in this country.

 

[Ticker]

@ raja Pakistani
see how your first sentence starts..that eliminates all possibilities of asking questions, or applying common sense against interpretations and see if it does really make sense or not, nobody dare to ask reasons for , or what occasion , culture , and time period or think if what is said or written can be applied now literally ?,Is it good for society.. nobody will think that if the society and culture or advanced and we need to improvise, that why god has given us brains and logic ..and even in this forum I may be forgiven for speaking something against Pakistan but not if I criticise religion any further..so am stopping it right here..sorry if anybody offended.

yes being ultra nationalist can be as same as a blind religious follower.I have seen many Hindu ultra nationalists too.. but a level headed nationalist will criticise any wrong doing of govt, and authorities or it's actions as a nation because there is no holy cow attitude in matters of state..every thing including it's constitution , govt , to lowest level laws and actions come under scrutiny..and changes are made if necessary.Nationalistic people will not hesitate from accepting wrong doing happened in the past by the state because there no false sense of " it can't be wrong because it's holy " which is true in the case of religions.


About modi - Many people are suspicious about modi for his inaction during the riots but there is no credible evidence against him..so in front of the law he is not guilty.

nationality has nothing to with Gujarat riot..Hindus were provoked by some bad elements in Muslim society and bad elements in Hindus reacted killing other innocent Muslims..i would not blame lack nationalism for this but false sense of religious belief .


Finally Every Muslim is as much as Indian as a Hindu is.. it is the ultra nationalist Hindus which is a tiny fraction of our society rant in the public forums to the Muslims to get lost..But every liberal, nationalistic Hindu or Christian will always oppose such ideologys..yes we will be called " pseudo secular " for that..but it's the cost of staying neutral in this country.

This is not provocation. Please don't take it as such. Purely intellectual discourse.

If Modi can not be proven guilty for lack of appropriate evidence, how can Hafiz Saeed be proven guilty without appropriate evidence.

 

[Redbull]

This is not provocation. Please don't take it as such. Purely intellectual discourse.

If Modi can not be proven guilty for lack of appropriate evidence, how can Hafiz Saeed be proven guilty without appropriate evidence.

Mazha ah gaya. What a reply