Can a Muslim be an Indian?

[ranjeet]

Your past isn't exactly a beacon of light....

Nobody can claim to have a clear conscious.

 

[Donatello]

Nobody can claim to have a clear conscious.

Agreed. You want to friendship me?

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Things start slowly, and then escalate. Do you really want to compare India with ISIS? Where did ISIS come from? All of a sudden? was it lurking always? etc etc

No, I am not rebutting what you are stating. You just quoted NYT. I am stating about the superior skills of Mr. Mishra and his assumptions of the threat India poses to the world.

I urge ALL INDIANS to read his column.

 

[ranjeet]

Agreed. You want to friendship me?

ASL??

 

[Donatello]

No, I am not rebutting what you are stating. You just quoted NYT. I am stating about the superior skills of Mr. Mishra and his assumptions of the threat India poses to the world.

I urge ALL INDIANS to read his column.

Good Suggestion. Any credible authors you might suggest, who are good in your view?
*sarcasm*

When someone posts something on NYT about Pakistan, India goes bezerk. Why the double standards and hypocrisy?

 

[SarthakGanguly]

When someone posts something on NYT about Pakistan, India goes bezerk. Why the double standards and hypocrisy?

Not sure mate. Can't say for others, I personally have never followed NYT. Neither for Pakistan nor for India. As far as authors are concerned - all have their pros and cons. Mr. Mishra has a great command over English for example.

Overall I like Naipaul, Rahul Pandita, Shahid, Khaled Hosseini(favorite), Ruskin Bond, Rushdie, Dan Brown, Tripathy etc

 

[Armstrong]

I am not saying, ma'am that you were wrong in saying that Mr.Jinnah did vow for a more or less secular state in his 11th August speech. What I differed with the interpretation that he may have been confused; He was not and fully aware of the unbridgeable difference in his ideology before and after 1947. The difference did not come from confusion but it came from decade long frustration, anger and hostile attitude from a certain quarter both from Muslim league and Congress.

I disagree; I think that we erroneously see either a Secular State or an Islamic Republic as the two alternatives to each other....in fact as the only two alternatives available !

I think that Z.A Sulehri's 'My Leader' which has a letter by Jinnah Sahib himself agreeing by what was written in the book about the aims and objectives of Pakistan Movement, as its forward, his correspondence with Iqbal, the ideas that Iqbal presented in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam and Jinnah Sahib's own numerous speeches, letters and interviews may suggest that he neither wanted a Secular State nor an Islamic Republic but something else entirely !

Now that may recommend to suspicion that I'm suggesting that he had a clear-cut idea of what a State of Muslims ought to be and where the Theological justification for it stemmed from, but I'm not ! He didn't !

If I may dare compare myself to him, I think he was more like me in this regard, I'm not religiously observant (I can't recall the last time I prayed) in fact on occasion one might even accuse me of being agnostic but at the same time I'm fiercely proud of the philosophical ideals that form the bedrock of Islam (as I understand them to be) and I'm deeply conscious of the fact that Islam is not just religion....its community and hence the Two Nation Theory !

And I believe that Jinnah Sahib had a similar sense of ownership or belonging to Muslims and in that he was conscious of the fact that Muslims did come up with a series of social, political, legal and economic paradigms over the years !

I believe that this is what he was talking about when in reply to a correspondence with Iqbal he wrote 'your views are in complete consonance with my own and have made me arrive at the same conclusions as you did' !

Am I suggesting those conclusions to be of a Theological nature in the sense that the two were debating about whether Pakistan would be based on Fiqh Hanafi or Fiqh Jafri etc. ? No....I think those conclusions were more in line with what Iqbal was trying to achieve or at least trying to kick-start in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam whereby he tried to bridge together Modernity with Islam and try to revitalize Islamic Paradigms in the light of Modernity !

If you ever get the chance to read Iqbal's Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam you find very clearly that how he talks about the Caliphate giving way to a Parliamentary Democracy, of how the Taqleed (blind imitation) in matters of faith that had crippled the Muslim society must give way to Ijtihad (human reasoning) in matters of faith just as Sir Syed talked about !

I think thats why when Jinnah Sahib went to Dacca in '48 (after the creation of Pakistan) he said: You are voicing only my sentiments and the sentiments of millions of Musalmaans when you say that Pakistan should be based on the pure foundations of Social justice and Islamic Socialism. Not other isms'. This was said after the creation of Pakistan so there wasn't any crowd to pander to and pandering wasn't in line with his character anyhow !

He said something similar at the Sibi Darbar and at the inauguration of the State Bank of Pakistan !

People cynically point out that those were just political statements for his constituency's consumption - I don't know....I haven't found him such a politician or such a person from everything I've read about him !

And when I read him, his statements, in conjunction with Iqbal and when I realize that Jinnah was so impressed by Iqbal that he published their correspondences in the form of a booklet and lamented the fact that his letters to Iqbal could not be found despite him checking with Iqbal's family (after the Allama's death), I think it was more than just a Muslim politician capitalizing on the fame of a venerated Muslim poet ! Not that I think such was in his behavior anyhow.

I really think that he wanted Pakistan to be a Pluralistic Democracy where Freedom, Equality and Justice would be guaranteed by all but also the much needed work of revitalizing Islam and more so Islamic thought in the light of modernity could be achieved. Where for every Capitalism, Communism and every other ism out there a contribution from the Muslim world could've been made just as it had been made in ages past !

I think he understood better than most that Islam never considered the individual, the community or the state through this binary of Secular vs the Islamic and strove for something else Pluralist and Islamic !

In that I in no way suggest that he was a Religious Cleric or anything of the sort; I think that he was Westernized and Secular in the earlier part of his life but with time he became more aware of his roots and his brush with Iqbal added to that !

Iqbal was not a Religious Cleric either; he was a Poet-Philosopher of a Muslim Nation in search of answers, identity and a way forward and I think Jinnah Sahib was the Political embodiment of those ideas !

Maybe @Oscar can add something !

 

[SQ8]

Maybe @Oscar can add something !

Could, but it would digress too much from the topic at hand.
And you dont sit at the throne and pretend you are in deep reconstruction thought for Buttsies?

Like "The reconstruction of Bhatta ideals for Mutton karahi"

 

[Armstrong]

Could, but it would digress too much from the topic at hand.
And you dont sit at the throne and pretend you are in deep reconstruction thought for Buttsies?

Like "The reconstruction of Bhatta ideals for Mutton karahi"

Buttsies can't be saved !

Just ask @SarthakGanguly hes a Pundit Buttsie !

A Pundit Buttsie - What the hell did I just say ?

Sarthak a Pundit Buttsie would be like the Abominable Snow Man or some Hairy Sasquatch !

 

[SQ8]

Buttsies can't be saved !

Just ask @SarthakGanguly hes a Pundit Buttsie !

A Pundit Buttsie - What the hell did I just say ?

Sarthak a Pundit Buttsie would be like the Abominable Snow Man or some Hairy Sasquatch !

The Pundit overrides the Buttsie gene.

See Bhatta, that is why I dont interact with you.. it ends up with us derailing the thread.

 

[Armstrong]

The Pundit overrides the Buttsie gene.

Chalooo koi nahin no one's perfect !

At least I have my other Butt Brother @Jungibaaz !

Hes just an honorary Butt for now 'cause he failed his last test; I mean how hard could it be to eat 5 kg of Chicken Karahi with a dozen Naans and yet he failed to do so !

 

[ranjeet]

what no answer to my advances here? what sort of forum is this?
@levina was that too much I asked for?

 

[Levina]

what no answer to my advances here? what sort of forum is this?
@levina was that too much I asked for?

Naa you just asked @Donatello for ASL and got a royal snub in reply.

 

[ranjeet]

Naa you just asked for ASL and got a royal snub in reply.

so that friendship offer was just a snub? that evil Pakistani

 

[Levina]

so that friendship offer was just a snub? that evil Pakistani

Where's Ranjeet??