Can a Muslim be an Indian?

[ranjeet]

Where's Ranjeet??

you want ranjeet to get banned

 

[KingMamba]

Why did India completely remove "religion" from their 2011 census?

What exactly is there to be afraid of?

If they show the real numbers then that Indian Muslim who claims that Muslims make up 30-40% may be vindicated.

 

[Kaniska]

I absolutely know that a majority of them would(sans the growing number of ISIS sympathizers... which are all over the world). My question is towards whether if tomorrow another incident is sparked off like the Godhra riots albeit on a larger scale..where will the majority of India stand?

@Oscar...It is really nice to read your balanced view of this such sensitive and critical thread....I enjoyed chatting with you...

I will elaborate my thought about how is the impression of Muslims relation with majority in little more detail..

1- It is an undeniable fact, that We have issues in India with respect to Hindu Muslim relation...Of course..we have examples to demonstrate the success stories but we have to admit that there are enough instances which should not happened.

2- First of all, i feel that when a religion clash with cultural aspect of any land, clashes are inveitable...Because we are not West that we have enough money to make every one happy...We are a nation with huge poor people...So democracy, seuclarism are very sweet talks that Gandhi and Nehru has prescribed in 1947 just make them presented better in the future generation...In this context, i admire Jinha because he can clearly forsee the danger lies ahead if Pakistan would not have been created for Muslims...

3- Hindu Muslim relation is not shaped by just 65 years....it is very pre dated..With the advent of internet, a child at the age of 10 can read Indian histroy and understand that how Indian Kingdom was brutally assaulted and huniliated by Muslim rulers with previous centuries...These are facts on the ground...But is what indian histroy does not tell us that why the heck even large number of people converted to Islam from Hinduism?....Use of force is not the only reason rather cast system is another factor which is has fascinated this process.

4- After independence, There is always some kind of extra attention and public fascilitation of Muslim interest in the matter of rule of law and social laws that govern modern India...Congress with its lack of foresigght, started catering to Deobond's and other religious Islamic seminaries to show to the Muslims how it cares for them...That is the most disastrous result that we are observing right now...Rather than bring poor Muslims kids clutches of religious Mullahs, Gov indirectly shifted its responsibility to those people who are not really worried about Muslim upliftment rather consolidating their position in India;s political space as there is a vaccum in political leadership after partition.

5- If you see the histroy, BJP was never ever a political force till 1998, but still then there was issues with Hindu Muslim relation..There are severe riots that has happened in last 65 years.....So BJP should be alone criticized for something...

6- The rise of BJP is not all about Muslim hate...rather it is a hate towards Congres....And Muslims in India are not able to differentiate between dislike for Congress of Indian public with dislike of Muslims..this is happening because, they have been brainwahsed with certain way which is very much difficult for them to change...

 

[farhan_9909]

If they show the real numbers then that Indian Muslims who claims that Muslims make up 30-40% may be vindicated.

Even akbar owaisi said "hum pachees crore hain"

Muslims are no less than 20% of indian population today

 

[KingMamba]

Even akbar owaisi said "hum pachees crore hain"

Muslims are no less than 20% of indian population today

It is probably even more, I doubt the claim of @mujhaidind of 300 Million Muslims but 240-50 million is not far fetched and that is without taking Bangladeshis in account.

 

[farhan_9909]

It is probably even more, I doubt the claim of @mujhaidind of 300 Million Muslims but 240-50 million is not far fetched and that is without taking Bangladeshis in account.

maza aa gya

Demographic danger! Why Muslim population growth is alarming | India News Analysis Opinions on Niti Central

 

[KingMamba]

maza aa gya

Demographic danger! Why Muslim population growth is alarming | India News Analysis Opinions on Niti Central

@Chinese-Dragon so it looks like they do have the overall data they just withheld it upon release.

 

[farhan_9909]

inko apne hi log marenge,mere ye baat yaad rakhna.

pata nahin inko koi pagal kutte ne kaata tha jo itni bari muslim population rehni di despite partition

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

@Chinese-Dragon so it looks like they do have the overall data they just withheld it upon release.

Strange, isn't it?

It's like if I wrote an annual report for a company, and I didn't include the sales data.

And if people ask me why I left out the sales data, I'll just answer: "Well it's not important! Stop asking about it!"



Whereas in this case it seems to be about measuring demographics without actually measuring demographics. What's the point.

 

[KingMamba]

Strange, isn't it?

It's like if I wrote an annual report for a company, and I didn't include the sales data.

And if people ask me why I left out the sales data, I'll just answer: "Well it's not important! Stop asking about it!"

Then you hire @levina to talk about why it isn't important on pdf.

inko apne hi log marenge,mere ye baat yaad rakhna.

pata nahin inko koi pagal kutte ne kaata tha jo itni bari muslim population rehni di despite partition

If they keep treating them like shit, accusing every other Muslim of bakwas like love jihad and cheer leading death of Muslims the world over then yeah no doubt it will happen.

Whereas in this case it seems to be about measuring demographics without actually measuring demographics. What's the point.

I think they had every intention early on but once the results became to "problematic" they decided it was best not to reveal such a thing.

 

[wolfschanzze]

Strange, isn't it?

It's like if I wrote an annual report for a company, and I didn't include the sales data.

And if people ask me why I left out the sales data, I'll just answer: "Well it's not important! Stop asking about it!"



Whereas in this case it seems to be about measuring demographics without actually measuring demographics. What's the point.

Hiding of religious data was a ploy by congress so as to not let a hindu vote bank consolidate under Narendra Modi and stop him from winning elections they tried to keep hindus as divided vote and wanted sole muslim votes for themselves hoping to win again using their age old tactics unfortunately that failed and you see the result.

 

[scorpionx]

I disagree; I think that we erroneously see either a Secular State or an Islamic Republic as the two alternatives to each other....in fact as the only two alternatives available !

I think that Z.A Sulehri's 'My Leader' which has a letter by Jinnah Sahib himself agreeing by what was written in the book about the aims and objectives of Pakistan Movement, as its forward, his correspondence with Iqbal, the ideas that Iqbal presented in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam and Jinnah Sahib's own numerous speeches, letters and interviews may suggest that he neither wanted a Secular State nor an Islamic Republic but something else entirely !

Now that may recommend to suspicion that I'm suggesting that he had a clear-cut idea of what a State of Muslims ought to be and where the Theological justification for it stemmed from, but I'm not ! He didn't !

If I may dare compare myself to him, I think he was more like me in this regard, I'm not religiously observant (I can't recall the last time I prayed) in fact on occasion one might even accuse me of being agnostic but at the same time I'm fiercely proud of the philosophical ideals that form the bedrock of Islam (as I understand them to be) and I'm deeply conscious of the fact that Islam is not just religion....its community and hence the Two Nation Theory !

And I believe that Jinnah Sahib had a similar sense of ownership or belonging to Muslims and in that he was conscious of the fact that Muslims did come up with a series of social, political, legal and economic paradigms over the years !

I believe that this is what he was talking about when in reply to a correspondence with Iqbal he wrote 'your views are in complete consonance with my own and have made me arrive at the same conclusions as you did' !

Am I suggesting those conclusions to be of a Theological nature in the sense that the two were debating about whether Pakistan would be based on Fiqh Hanafi or Fiqh Jafri etc. ? No....I think those conclusions were more in line with what Iqbal was trying to achieve or at least trying to kick-start in his Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam whereby he tried to bridge together Modernity with Islam and try to revitalize Islamic Paradigms in the light of Modernity !

If you ever get the chance to read Iqbal's Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam you find very clearly that how he talks about the Caliphate giving way to a Parliamentary Democracy, of how the Taqleed (blind imitation) in matters of faith that had crippled the Muslim society must give way to Ijtihad (human reasoning) in matters of faith just as Sir Syed talked about !

I think thats why when Jinnah Sahib went to Dacca in '48 (after the creation of Pakistan) he said: You are voicing only my sentiments and the sentiments of millions of Musalmaans when you say that Pakistan should be based on the pure foundations of Social justice and Islamic Socialism. Not other isms'. This was said after the creation of Pakistan so there wasn't any crowd to pander to and pandering wasn't in line with his character anyhow !

He said something similar at the Sibi Darbar and at the inauguration of the State Bank of Pakistan !

People cynically point out that those were just political statements for his constituency's consumption - I don't know....I haven't found him such a politician or such a person from everything I've read about him !

And when I read him, his statements, in conjunction with Iqbal and when I realize that Jinnah was so impressed by Iqbal that he published their correspondences in the form of a booklet and lamented the fact that his letters to Iqbal could not be found despite him checking with Iqbal's family (after the Allama's death), I think it was more than just a Muslim politician capitalizing on the fame of a venerated Muslim poet ! Not that I think such was in his behavior anyhow.

I really think that he wanted Pakistan to be a Pluralistic Democracy where Freedom, Equality and Justice would be guaranteed by all but also the much needed work of revitalizing Islam and more so Islamic thought in the light of modernity could be achieved. Where for every Capitalism, Communism and every other ism out there a contribution from the Muslim world could've been made just as it had been made in ages past !

I think he understood better than most that Islam never considered the individual, the community or the state through this binary of Secular vs the Islamic and strove for something else Pluralist and Islamic !

In that I in no way suggest that he was a Religious Cleric or anything of the sort; I think that he was Westernized and Secular in the earlier part of his life but with time he became more aware of his roots and his brush with Iqbal added to that !

Iqbal was not a Religious Cleric either; he was a Poet-Philosopher of a Muslim Nation in search of answers, identity and a way forward and I think Jinnah Sahib was the Political embodiment of those ideas !

Maybe @Oscar can add something !

Excellent post, Armstrong. Thank you. It really opens up new doors for me to explore.

 

[Arya Desa]

Sort answer: no

A muslim can't be an Indian anymore than they can be a pakistani, American, or any other nationality. When religion is paramount to you, when it is your first and most important identifier, then you don't belong to any country.

 

[Levina]

Strange, isn't it?

It's like if I wrote an annual report for a company, and I didn't include the sales data.

And if people ask me why I left out the sales data, I'll just answer: "Well it's not important! Stop asking about it!"



Whereas in this case it seems to be about measuring demographics without actually measuring demographics. What's the point.

Then you hire @levina to talk about why it isn't important on pdf.



If they keep treating them like shit, accusing every other Muslim of bakwas like love jihad and cheer leading death of Muslims the world over then yeah no doubt it will happen.



I think they had every intention early on but once the results became to "problematic" they decided it was best not to reveal such a thing.

Lol
So much of speculation!
The real reason behind this is something which is far mare more simple than expected.And the ones scratching their grey cells over it might look like baudets.

@Chinese-Dragon
After my conversation with you here I asked somebody who has a lot more knowledge than me on this issue, about the religious head count.I
was told that such data is released 2-3 years after the census, that has been the norm till now. The media has been giving out new theories to just add fuel to fire.
You can expect your "Sales data" by 2015.

inko apne hi log marenge,mere ye baat yaad rakhna.

pata nahin inko koi pagal kutte ne kaata tha jo itni bari muslim population rehni di despite partition

Lol
Apni kaum pe bada vishwas hai???

And how can the 13.4% ppl suddenly swell to 30-40% of the population remains a mystery.Lolzz
I bet the person who came up with this theory got his numbers wrong,the number thirt-eeen was misunderstood to be thirt-yyy. Lolzz

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Lol
So much of speculation!
The real reason behind this is something which is far mare more simple than expected.And the ones scratching their grey cells over it might look like baudets.

@Chinese-Dragon
After my conversation with you here I asked somebody who has a lot more knowledge than me on this issue, about the religious head count.I
was told that such data is released 2-3 years after the census, that has been the norm till now. The media has been giving out new theories to just add fuel to fire.
You can expect your "Sales data" by 2015.

2-3 years after the census would be 2013-2014.

Why would it take several years to release such basic numbers though?

According to India's 2001 census, Indian Hindus barely made the "psychologically important" 80% mark. By a fraction of a percentage.

And considering that Indian Muslims have a significantly higher total fertility rate than Indian Hindus (around 4-5 children each), and considering that a decade has passed since then, it is pretty much certain that Indian Hindus are now less than 80%. And that is not even counting the supposed Bangladeshi immigration.

Which no doubt would fuel the beliefs of many of your countrymen (example above from Arya Desa) of the much-touted "demographic threat" theory. So of course the Indian government would have motivation to hide such numbers.