Cameron doesn't understand Pakistan. Sadly, he is not alone

[GreenStar]

Pakistan openly allows foreigners and its own citizens to get trained into terrrorist schools and does not curb them.

If the UK cannot curb terrorism....how do you expect Pakistan who is much poorer....and vastly more bigger..to contain terrorism everywhere. Like I said before since Pakistan has done the operation in these 3 key areas.....the militants source of training has been disrupted.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Their patriotism was assertive and unabashed. "We are a proud and great country. We have nuclear weapons," said one.

Absolutely, borne out by Pew's survey results:

The nation-state is of great significance to Pakistanis, and despite important ethnic and regional differences, national identity is strong throughout the country. Overall, 89% say they think of themselves first as Pakistani, rather than as a member of their ethnic group.


Pakistani Public Opinion | Pew Global Attitudes Project

The poll also points out that another 4% of Pakistanis place their ethnicity and national identity at an equal level. That then amounts to 93% of Pakistanis with a strong national identity, a very different picture from the one painted by hacks in the Western media like Selig Harrison and others who never tire of ranting about the 'deep divisions in the artificial State of Pakistan, just waiting to fall apart'.

Pakistan's identity issues are steadily being resolved. But not how we would like them to be. Shout as much as we like, the man on the Gujranwala omnibus is increasingly unlikely to listen.

Yes, in a way the US invasion of Afghanistan has made Pakistanis close ranks, albeit, as the author points out, not in a way that is favorable to the West. But then it would be wishful thinking to assume that a deeply unpopular invasion of Afghanistan on the basis of (at the time) scant evidence of OBL's culpability, that then led to a violent insurgency in Pakistan and terrorism of the like never seen before, plus an invasion of Iraq on the basis of lies, would have any effect other than the one Burke narrates.

On my part, as a Pakistani, the continuing cohesion as a nation, despite its strong conservative bent, is a welcome development. I don't see the rising conservatism/anti-Western sentiment as a major issue in the long term since IMO it is the product of the war by the US in Afghanistan (and Iraq) and the resultant terrorism in the region, and one has to be optimistic that these issues will be resolved one way or the other in the coming years.

 

[Peshwa]

If somebody denounces them, they do it for a reason!

West plays politics in the name of serving humanity which results in millions of innocent deaths, just as terrorists are spreading terror misusing the name of Islam. Then how does West expects a different treatment!!

An average Pakistani and a Mulsim around the world doesn't have power to fight back neither Taliban, Al-Qaeda nor do they have ability to fight Nato.

So if nothing else We at least consider evil as evil in our hearts and protest against it whenever and whichever way possible.
Let it be Taliban or Democratically Imperial Armies!!!

Well...I do agree with the Economic targetting of countries that the US and UK have so slyly been using to further their cause, gain control of natural resources and further their own economies....

However, lets also be clear that the world runs on individual interests....monetary or strategic mutually beneficial advantages.......and not "brotherly love" or any other bull that people feed each other...many on this forum...

So if Pakistan has used Afghanistan as its own personal playground.....obviously with the help of the US and the west....to serve their own interests and needs
Same can be said of Kashmir....
and India wrt to other nations.....
Innocents have died due to our actions as well....so lets not get hypocritical

Only difference is, we are playing a rich mans games with pennies in our pocket.....So when the backlash hits back at you, unlike the west which has resources both man and money to repel it, we cant....

So we cry foul.....

"Khud ko kar buland itna....ke khuda tujhze puchhe teri raza kya hai"

 

[Peshwa]

That is your concern not our's....it your citizens.....they are not British..so we have no concern in involving our self with your matters. Go to Pakistan and talk to it directly...why involve us.....we don't have that same political clout that we did 60 or 70 odd years ago.....so David Cameron created unneccessary tension.

We should concentrate on ourselves. And about the question of terrorism in the UK....that is my goverments fault..that it has not tackled this issue. It does not involve itself enough with the Pakistani or Muslim community in trying to stop young memebers from being suicide bombers....most of these people come from poor backgrounds....and our not educated. And its our fault for letting extremists mullah run around in the country such as Abu Hamza....and he is not Pakistani.

Terrorism is a world problem now.....

Especially with the revelation of the networks such as David Headley running amuck in the US, targetting Danish newspapers, Mumbai etc....
We see that the snake Pakistan raised in the name of religion and the faux cause of freedom to the Kashmiris has become too big spreading its fangs worldwide.....

If not tackled now, the large population of English Muslims of Pakistani origin are at a risk of becoming radicalized......freedom of religion has become almost a negative in this case.....
So...Britain is an important part of solving this equation since it itself may come to become a victim of what was once an Indo-Pak issue of Kashmir....

Who's to blame is a topic of debate that can span 60 years in some cases....

The solution is that the world has to tackle the problem collectively.....

So please dont try to distance your country from this.....especially when you so vocally speak on the Kashmir issue.....

 

[Peshwa]

As you are not a muslim...which I gather...you haven't attended any mosques of these hate speches.....I have at a young age....do you know why we have terrorism in the UK........because we allowed leaders like Abu Hamza to run around preaching...instead of stopping him. For years he was preaching in all of the biggest mosque around London...and have you noticed that most of the bombers our his students.....so this is our failure for not kicking him out early...and he is not Pakistani.

Since I see that you take a stand on Abu Hamza and hate speeches.....care to deliver a POV on the likes of Hafiz Saeed who has used his freedom of speech greatly to his and his ilks nefarious agenda.....

Does that not explain radicalism and cause of terrorism in Pakistan according to your theory?

So you tell me....what has India been saying thats so different from what you voiced above wrt. Hafeez Saeed and Hate speeches?

 

[Peshwa]

Pakistani Community is British...so as we live there it is the right of the British goverement to educate and help these people...so its logical if the UK align itself with the British Anglo-Pak community. Futhermore these bombers are not Pakistani..they are British maybe of Pakistani origin......but British non of the less.

The questions you should be asking is.....

What makes Pakistanis....of British origin or otherwise so inclined to radicalism?

Uneducation and unemployment is not limited to British Pakistanis only.....

 

[Peshwa]

Karan its okay.....But I believe I am not getting it mixed up...from my experience...terrorism has got a foot hold into the UK because the goverment did not stop the instigators who were encouraging young British boys to become extremists......these instigators were like Omar....Hamza and many others. Yes Young British Pakistani's have gone wayward in some situations....but that is our goverment's fault...because it did not go into these communities to solve the problem that was the core issues. They did it years later..and already by then the damage was done. However any bombers who are from the UK come under our responsibillity.

Exactly the Indian POV where we feel the Pakistani govt. has been extremely soft...if not encouraging the radicals in their country (Past or present).....
I think there has been sufficient discussion on how not just the UK, but many countries including Pakistani allies have voiced similar concerns.....

Does that not answer why Pakistan has faced a brunt of the attacks by TTP and other radicals?

Now if UK and India show concern....is that unwarranted? Since you yourself claim that your govt should take a hard stance?

 

[Peshwa]

Well like I said most of these people our not educated.....as a result they get picked up by extremist groups......which indoctrinates them in becoming bombers. It's the duty of the UK goverement to solve this not Pakistan......unless UK wants to be a part of Pakistan......which will never happen...then its the duty of our goverment.

Well what about Pakistan based terror groups using the same techniques?

Is it not the duty of the Pakistani Govt to educate these kids? Why are so many rural Pakistanis going to Madrasas?
Im sure you've heard of the radicalism that Zia intended to bring into Pakistan through education.....dont you think that has had some effects?

Now if a culmination of the above results in "non-state" actors of Pak origin causing mayhem in and outside of their country, shouldnt we hold the nation providing the lack of education responsible?....just as you blame the UK?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The questions you should be asking is.....

What makes Pakistanis....of British origin or otherwise so inclined to radicalism?

Uneducation and unemployment is not limited to British Pakistanis only.....

The fact that Pakistan and Pakistanis are directly affected by a perceived 'illegitimate' war and invasion of Afghanistan, that has severe repercussions for Pakistan, would be one reason.

But beyond that, as far as terrorism and extremism is concerned, terrorism in the UK is not limited to British citizens of Pakistani origin, as has been pointed out, and the radicalization of most British, of Pakistani origin or not, occurs in Britain, not Pakistan.

 

[GreenStar]

Terrorism is a world problem now

Correct it is a World Problem...that need's a strong co-operation bewteen all countries.

We see that the snake Pakistan raised in the name of religion and the faux cause of freedom to the Kashmiris has become too big spreading its fangs worldwide.....

Kashmir is a different matter..it has nothing to do with Britain....so if you have issues go to the UN...or speak to Pakistan directly....I don't hear much in the news in where both diplomats are trying to negioate with each other...that is a failure on both your goverements. Futhrmore how is Pakistan spreading its fangs worldwide can you please elaborate more on that.

If not tackled now, the large population of English Muslims of Pakistani origin are at a risk of becoming radicalized......freedom of religion has become almost a negative in this case.....

Pashwa I live in England...and this scenrio has gone on for years.....and to tell you the truth no Pakistan English Muslim is at risks....even at the height of 9/11 or 7/7. And if you actually look at it Islam is growing in Britain....so no problem there.

So...Britain is an important part of solving this equation since it itself may come to become a victim of what was once an Indo-Pak issue of Kashmir....

Like I said there has been no bombing's since 2005..so Pakistan is playing its part...now those who commit these terrible acts under British soil....who are of UK citizenship...come under the responsibility of the British goverement...not Pakistan.....because the culprits are British. In my opinion it is not important for Britain to get involved....we simply don't have that power in the first place to solve anything...America is the best option. The British intelligence service is co-operating with the Pakistani intelligence service....and the relationship has been very fruitful....as you can see since 2005 there has been no bombings.

MI5 told US about Detroit bomber's terror links 'a year ago' - Telegraph

And Pakistani's are not the only one's involved into terrorism...this is an example so why does the world not knock on Nigeria door.

 

[GreenStar]

Since I see that you take a stand on Abu Hamza and hate speeches.....care to deliver a POV on the likes of Hafiz Saeed who has used his freedom of speech greatly to his and his ilks nefarious agenda.....

When I was talking about Abu Hamza....I was saying that he was speaking to his student's to attack the UK......the British goverement knew this for a long time....and actually I even heard that he hid weapons in his mosque. However this Hafiz Saeed fellow I personally don't know much about....is he part of the Taliban...or the Kashmir reisistance group....

---------- Post added at 09:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 PM ----------

Does that not explain radicalism and cause of terrorism in Pakistan according to your theory?

explain to me what are his views then I will comment on it please...

 

[GreenStar]

The questions you should be asking is.....

What makes Pakistanis....of British origin or otherwise so inclined to radicalism?

Uneducation and unemployment is not limited to British Pakistanis only..

Atuallly a lot of the Pakistan's in the Midlands and Bradford area are very uneducated.....I know because I have family there...and let me tell you straight after GCSE most of them don't even bother to educate them selves futher...because they come from poor backgrounds....not there fault...so they join the local mosque and get radicalized by certain clerics....However that has seemed to have stopped..but the reaosn why such cases were frequent because the British goverment was to slow to stop clerics such as Omar, Abu Hamza and many others...who had free rein for years...by then the damage was done.

 

[GreenStar]

The questions you should be asking is.....

What makes Pakistanis....of British origin or otherwise so inclined to radicalism?

Uneducation and unemployment is not limited to British Pakistanis only..

Like I said before they are not Pakistani.....they are British...so not Pakistan's concern..what so ever.

 

[GreenStar]

Exactly the Indian POV where we feel the Pakistani govt. has been extremely soft...if not encouraging the radicals in their country (Past or present).....

Well to tell you the truth...in my opinion..I beleive it was not Pakistan's fault entirely that radicalism increased in its country. Do you know why...because first when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan....the Pakistani leadership was scared of the Soviet invasion into Pakistan..as a barrier to contain the Soviets... Zia created these Mujahadeen.

However after the war most of these Mujahadeen stayed behind..and many married into the families of the tribal warlords. It was the fault of other Muslim countries that did not bother to take there citizens back....as a result these fanatics were preaching hate into Pakistan in the tribal region. Its common knowledge that education levels in the North West Frontier of Pakistan is not very good...so people were easy prey.


You can question why did Pakistan not intervene..simple answer to that is....at that time the tribal area was not governed by Pakistan....it was the rule of the tribal councils. And unlike Pakistan the UK goverment has the finance to crack down on militants in its soil...however Pakistan does not have that luxury.

Pakistan should have done something....I agree..however where were the Americans..they should have supported the Pakistani's as it is a poor country.....so America is to be blamed aswell.

 

[Peshwa]

The fact that Pakistan and Pakistanis are directly affected by a perceived 'illegitimate' war and invasion of Afghanistan, that has severe repercussions for Pakistan, would be one reason.

Radicalization of Pakistan began when Zia govt and CIA arm in arm used the Madrasas of NWFP to turn Afghans and Pakistanis into militants and extremists in their fight against soviets.....
Both govt provided arms to these folks and ingrained the idea of freedom through violence.....

So the process had its roots well before the WOT even began....

Now the point is, the tactics used to make an Afghan refugee Mujhideen were also used by Zia in Pakistan itself......
So a person studying in an A-level school probably had enough space to be liberal, but same cannot be said of the Govt. educated.....or those that attended Madrasas....

Fast forward to post-9/11.....had the US not attacked, Afghanistan, the largely lawless region of NWFP which largely remained a hotbed for such fundamentalism would have continued to simmer in such volatile teachings.....Inevitably, this would have blown over to the rest of Pak as well....luckily Pakistan did get involved in the fight curbing the spread to a WOT as opposed to an Islamic Revolution similar to Iran.....

So to blame it solely on WOT is not accurate....especially in light of past faulty policies of the GOP and its dictators.....
I think the root of the problem was education....

Let me ask you something.....
What are the prospects for a Madrasa educated person in Pakistan?

But beyond that, as far as terrorism and extremism is concerned, terrorism in the UK is not limited to British citizens of Pakistani origin, as has been pointed out, and the radicalization of most British, of Pakistani origin or not, occurs in Britain, not Pakistan.

I never said it was a purely Pakistani phenomenon in the UK....though Pakistani youth in the UK are more susceptible to it......