BVR capabilities of PAF

[Munir]

Though f16 block 15 of PAF were the first to have the capability to fire aim7 the delivery was halted. We did not receive any parts. Let us hope the AMRAAM will have a different development.

 

[fatman17]

Range of AIM-7F is 50 KM.

It is being phased out in favor of the more advanced AIM-120 AMRAAM.

Its not in PAF use.

PAF - Inventory: Missiles

Type
Role

Raytheon AIM-7F Sparrow
Air-to-Air

Raytheon AIM-9J/L Sidewinder
Air-to-Air

MATRA R.530
Air-to-Air

MATRA R.550 Magic 1
Air-to-Air

Hughes AGM-65A/B Maverick
Air-to-Surface

Aerospatiale AM 39 Exocet
Anti-Ship


(source: Jane's Sentinel Security Assessment, 12-14-00)

according to this very credible source, it seems that the PAF has the AIM-7F in its inventory since 2000.

 

[shehbazi2001]

Without BVRs, the air arm of Pakistan cant be called as Air Force. It may be called as Military Flying Club of Pakistan or Pakistan Flying Corps.

The main role and objective of an air force is to establish air superiority and for that purpose air superiority fighters are needed.

Its since 1970s that air superiority fighters carry BVR missiles for long range shots. But in 1980s, every air superiority fighter carried BVRs in addition to WVR missiles. Now in 2000s, it seems extremely difficult to establish air superiority without BVRs.

If Pakistan's air arm cant establish air superiority, even its existence as a separate force is in question. The tactics that PAF can devise against BVRs are useful for self-defence but air superiority is not all about self-defence, its more on offense.

The battlefields are always on the border areas, where you need to establish air superiority and its not all defensive only.

Pakistan does not have a single air superiority fighter at the moment. New F-16s may perform this role in future. In this era, Point defence fighters or Interceptors or Ground attack fighter bombers cant establish air superiority.

I would stress that Pakistan not only accelerate the acquisition of AMRAAMs but also acquire another BVR so that an invader's task of countermeasures is made complicated.

The integration of AMRAAMs should be a prime consideration for MLU of F-16s, so that AMRAAM equipped F-16s become available as soon as possible.

 

[Nomi929]

PAF - Inventory: Missiles

Type
Role

Raytheon AIM-7F Sparrow
Air-to-Air

Raytheon AIM-9J/L Sidewinder
Air-to-Air

MATRA R.530
Air-to-Air

MATRA R.550 Magic 1
Air-to-Air

Hughes AGM-65A/B Maverick
Air-to-Surface

Aerospatiale AM 39 Exocet
Anti-Ship


(source: Jane's Sentinel Security Assessment, 12-14-00)

according to this very credible source, it seems that the PAF has the AIM-7F in its inventory since 2000.

Well i don't think so, PAF currenlty lacks BVR capability.

The surce is not credible one.

PAF F-16's currently don't have the ability to carry AIM-7.

 

[Munir]

>>>Without BVRs, the air arm of Pakistan cant be called as Air Force. It may be called as Military Flying Club of Pakistan or Pakistan Flying Corps.

It is the man behind the machine, still not the opposite. Just ask Murad or other valuable posters. You can have lots of BVR but you still need more then average fighterpilots to win the war. Ever heard about anti bvr tactics? I can tell you that since I have learned a few of those tricks you can have every BVR plane but just give me F7PG and I bet I can show you that you will need your parachute.

>>>The main role and objective of an air force is to establish air superiority and for that purpose air superiority fighters are needed.

You can achieve that if you have a cripled opponent. IT is about getting the right sectors to defend you offensive and defensive. How on earth will you achieve that in PAk versus India? Never.


>>>Its since 1970s that air superiority fighters carry BVR missiles for long range shots. But in 1980s, every air superiority fighter carried BVRs in addition to WVR missiles. Now in 2000s, it seems extremely difficult to establish air superiority without BVRs.

Even F22 got the gun. Just like the Phantom had to make terrible adjustment to get the gun. BVR is nice but you will not have that advantage for long enough to stay flying. Only Stealth will be able to help you a little. Even that is something we do not know enough cause wuth every tactic there is counter tactic.


>>>If Pakistan's air arm cant establish air superiority, even its existence as a separate force is in question. The tactics that PAF can devise against BVRs are useful for self-defence but air superiority is not all about self-defence, its more on offense.

Only a ********. What are you gonna do into their land if you cannot achieve stable sectors in your own country?


>>>The battlefields are always on the border areas, where you need to establish air superiority and its not all defensive only.

Border area? Pakistan has no depth and we can just say that it is all just a border area...

>>>Pakistan does not have a single air superiority fighter at the moment. New F-16s may perform this role in future. In this era, Point defence fighters or Interceptors or Ground attack fighter bombers cant establish air superiority.

I think you might rethink this part.


>>>I would stress that Pakistan not only accelerate the acquisition of AMRAAMs but also acquire another BVR so that an invader's task of countermeasures is made complicated.

You want to influence Ratheon/USA? There are rules about storing them and if you do not have F16's yet you might wanna know why they deliver it faster... Certainly if you have unstable corrupt nation.


>>>The integration of AMRAAMs should be a prime consideration for MLU of F-16s, so that AMRAAM equipped F-16s become available as soon as possible.

You know how long it takes to update F16? And that they already started? And that they can not ship every plane cause they need them right now for so called airsuperiority?

 

[shehbazi2001]

I think we should not depend too much on our perceived superior skills.

No one can deny the importance of training or skill. Even for firing BVR, u need skill. But the Indian AF has been actively participating in International Exercises for last 10 years and we should not underestimate their skills. May be it was true 10 years ago.

In 1971 in Rajihstan sector, Pak Army units were badly damaged by Indian Air Force. Why? because the air superiority was not achieved in that sector or say air cover was not there.

In my view, air superiority means damaging the enemy air force to an extent that it cant effectively support its land or sea units. It does not mean total annihilation. That would be air dominance.

Also I dont deny the importance of dogfighting. I rather think that days of dogfights are still not gone but that old dogfight of just chasing one another's six has surely changed.

Having BVRs means having more fire power and more reach and a military planner or a fighter pilot cant ignore it. New BVR missiles should not be taken as the same as AIM-7 or AA-10. BVR is not all about entering enemy territory. Lets suppose that we have some genuine tactics against BVRs. Even if true, pilots shall be carrying out defensive maneuvers and the offensive capability shall be affected.

Shooting down aircraft over battlefield, that are coming from Indian side, shall be easier or quicker or feasible with BVRs. Its also about your interception capability.

The high flying Mig-25 that violated pak airspace several times and came over Islamabad, could have been shot with an BVR. The high flying recce aircraft shall not dare enter Pakistan once we have BVR missiles.

BVR shall boost the chasing and hunting power of PAF against intruders. BVR shall also put almost an end to the border area violations of Pak air space or attacks on border villages by fighters of other countries. In all our history, mostly when PAF fighters reach the border area, the intruders are already gone back after doing much damage to the locals.

With BVR, PAF can put a missile in the intruder's back much earlier and hence it shall present a deterrent to any intruder.

Mr Munir, do u see all the capablities that BVR offers! Now imagine an air force without BVRs...............and think of Pakistan....

However we have already ordered BVRs and any possibility of having them a bit quicker will boost the morale of the nation and pilots alike.

 

[IceCold]

Without BVRs, the air arm of Pakistan cant be called as Air Force. It may be called as Military Flying Club of Pakistan or Pakistan Flying Corps.

The main role and objective of an air force is to establish air superiority and for that purpose air superiority fighters are needed.

Its since 1970s that air superiority fighters carry BVR missiles for long range shots. But in 1980s, every air superiority fighter carried BVRs in addition to WVR missiles. Now in 2000s, it seems extremely difficult to establish air superiority without BVRs.

If Pakistan's air arm cant establish air superiority, even its existence as a separate force is in question. The tactics that PAF can devise against BVRs are useful for self-defence but air superiority is not all about self-defence, its more on offense.

The battlefields are always on the border areas, where you need to establish air superiority and its not all defensive only.

Pakistan does not have a single air superiority fighter at the moment. New F-16s may perform this role in future. In this era, Point defence fighters or Interceptors or Ground attack fighter bombers cant establish air superiority.

I would stress that Pakistan not only accelerate the acquisition of AMRAAMs but also acquire another BVR so that an invader's task of countermeasures is made complicated.

The integration of AMRAAMs should be a prime consideration for MLU of F-16s, so that AMRAAM equipped F-16s become available as soon as possible.

Nothing better could be said. However we have set foot in the right direction with the accusations of the AMRAAMs and with SD-10 in our inventory and a possible induction of the MICA, this short coming will be removed. What concerns me are the tactics regarding the use of a BVR as most nations got this capability during the 70s and eighties while we are just about to get one. Now a while ago i think sir keys raised this point that though we did not had an active BVR capability, still when we had a joint exercises with other nations most recently with the Turks, PAF pilots practice these tactics against the already BVR equipped nations.

 

[shehbazi2001]

I am presenting here the views of a Malaysian AF Officer that dates back to 2003 but shall give us an idea on the training and skill levels and other threats. The situation has changed now but still its relevant for the enthusiasts of Aviation.

PART-1

I note further that your first article did not refer at all to MiG 29s' in the Indian inventory and that I consider to be a grave omission given that the primary role played by these aircraft is to establish air superiority and further are the primary launch platform for Indian BVR aams like the R27 and R 77. The MiG 29 is indeed a significant threat which PAF aircraft including the F16's have to face. In addition the IAF has more then a 2:1 ratio of MiG 29's compared to the PAF F 16's. Your article was silent on
this issue. Numbers have an important bearing on such factors as sortie
generation rates, attrition rates, surge capability, with regards to operational tempo etc.

The MiG 29 will have to feature heavily in PAF planning as it is likely to
be encountered in almost every operational scenario involving India. I am
aware that the MiG 29 was the primary aircraft which conducted CAP and
strike escort missions during the Kargil operations in 99. You will have
noted that the PAF did not intervene even though Pakistani servicemen were
being subjected to aerial attack at times across the LOC.

You may be aware that the Royal Malaysian Air Force(RMAF) operates Mig 29s'
with similar capabilities to the Indian Mig 29s. There are documented case
studies following ADEX with (Australian Air Force) RAAF operated F 18's
encountering RMAF MiG 29s' of the effectiveness and lethality of the later
aircraft. Indeed the RAAF has embarked on an upgrade of their F 18's due to
the RAAF having perceived significant shortcomings in capability of their F
18s' thanks in part to the MiG 29's performance. during ADEXs'.

The IAF operational doctrine as it currently stands is to overwhelm the PAF
by sheer weight of numbers and ordnance delivered in offensive operations in
the opening phase of any conflict. The basis for this approach was laid back
in the 80's when the PAF inducted the F 16s'. Whilst the PAF has stabilized
in numbers the IAF has undergone a qualitative change. Do not be fooled by
the frequent crashes of Mig 21 trainers and MiG 21 series a/c. The IAF has
elected to invest in pilots who make the grade or wash out given the high
skill level required for fast jet pilots. You may have noted that not too
many Mirage 2ks, Mig 29's or Su 30's have been lost since 1998 which is well
within the accident rates of other air forces around the world.

Now to that scenario add the induction of the SU 30 MKI and you have a
significant disparity in operational capability that cannot be simply offset
by better training, morale etc of the PAF. This is the threat that I am most
concerned with and if you have studied the new and increased operational
capability afforded by the Su 30 MKI together with other assets then you
like me will be concerned. I have had the opportunity to study the SU 30 as
it is being seriously considered by the RMAF. The RMAF has specified similar
avionic and weapon delivery capability as the IAF SU 30 MKI except that no
Israeli made components are to be installed. The aircraft's capability is
awesome and the challenge is to develop operational doctrine for its
employment which I understand the IAF is heavily committed to at present.

Finally I trust you will continue to write and be prepared for critical
comment. Warning me to be careful etc does not make necessarily make you a
better writer.

Your second article whilst interesting however descends into the realm of
fantasy when you suggest for example that the PAF immediately shoot down any
twin tailed aircraft. The problem faced by the PAF is getting within visual
range of such aircraft as the IAF does operate and is about to induct the A
50 Beriev AWACS (and perhaps the more capable PHALCON system installed on
IL 76 frames). The AWACS give the IAF operational, tactical and situational
awareness which more then negates PAF pilot skills. The availability of the
R 27 & R 77 in both radar and IR versions is something the PAF will have to
work on to counter and frankly I do not see that happening in the short
term. Further I cannot see the PAF being lent F 15's etc as the terms for
their supply to Saudia Arabia by the US requires them not to be lent etc to
other users especially so in the current global political scenario.

 

[shehbazi2001]

PART-2 of the Comments

Whilst the F16 A/B 's operated by the PAF are Block 15 OEU they are at
least 18 years old and there are only 32 in the inventory. The comparable
IAF aircraft is the MiG 29 which has been upgraded in the mid 90's with
better radar and avionics and also Indian manufactured RWR, more advanced
ECM and above all the ability to use the R 27 and R 77 BVR aams apart from
the HMS and cued R 73 and Phython 4. There is at least 75 MiG 29s in the IAF
inventory. I am well aware of the capability of these MiG 29's as the Royal
Malaysian Air Force(RMAF) also operates the similar MiG 29 N's which have
had the same enhancement package as the IAF eg the radar, better engines
etc. The MiG 29 has shown consistently its ability to go toe to toe with
RAAF F 18 A/B's during various exercises which has resulted in the RAAF
setting up a special committee to look into the possibility of enhancing the
F18 given its performance against the MiG 29. This has resulted inter alia
in the adoption of the ASRAAM and AMRAAM by the RAAF. Malaysian MiG pilots
received training from the IAF and they tell me that their training and
instructors were first rate.
The numbers in service, BVR and HMS capability enjoyed by the IAF is
troubling to say the least.

- The Mirage III and 5 series being operated by the PAF despite being
subject to the ROSE upgrade still leave much to desire. Range, payload,
power to weight etc are still inadequate if you take into account the fact
that they are expected to penetrate deep into Indian air space to get at
strategic targets. I also know that RAAF pilots who have flown the Mirage
III have clearly indicated that the Mirage is not multi role and leaves a
lot to be desired in the present context where it will be facing
interceptors like the MiG 21 let alone MiG 29's and others. The Mirage may
perform well if air superiority is established but that is the crux of the
problem ie of establishing air superiority.

- The Fantan A 5 is at best a day ground attack jet with modest range and
payload. It is in reality a Chinese modified MiG 19 hybrid.

Facing this is the IAF with at least 45 Mirage 2000's (some 126 more are
expected over the next 6 years). This is indeed a multi role aircraft and
has been subject to continuous upgrades and the fact that it was employed
successfully in Kargil often without escort should be ample warning of its
capability especially when mated with the Litening targeting pods.

Then there are the SU 30 MKI to contend with. This aircraft is awesome in
its capability and the only restriction at present is the IAF's ability to
develop operational doctrine for all that awesome potential. This aircraft
has overmatch in every aspect with any aircraft currently in the PAF
inventory. I am also aware of the capability of this aircraft as the RMAF is
interested in acquiring at least a squadron's worth with specifications
similar to the IAF but with non Israeli made components. I have also been
talking with F15C USAF pilots who tell me that this SU 30MKI is a headache
given its capability in every aspect to match and exceed the F15C. In
addition it has also the PGM delivery capability and has range and payload
which comes close to the F15E. The IAF is expected to field about 20 Su 30
MKIs by years end and I suspect that the IAF will become very provocative
especially near the LOC and other spots deemed not vulnerable by Pakistan
for eg the coast line to the West as the range of the SU 30 gives the IAF
that long reach.

Then there is the IAF AWACS capability, at present with the Beriev A 50 and
shortly to be enhanced with Il 76's with the Phalcon system. The sad fact is
that the PAF will no longer enjoy better situational, tactical or strategic
awareness given the AWACS in IAF service. This AWACS also negate and
neutralize the perceived better training and skills of the average PAF pilot
as the IAF will definitely use its superior BVR capability to advantage.

Then we have the IL 78 Midas induction which will give the IAF the ability
to come at Pakistan from unexpected directions and also the ability to stay
aloft (loiter) longer and have better payloads with all the attendant
consequences.

Last but not least the Jaguars and MiG 27's are being upgraded and their
ability to lug and deliver iron is impressive especially when the air
superiority equation is in their favour. In any confrontation the PAF is
likely to bleed as much but even more then the IAF and also has less ability
to withstand attrition.

Pakistan also lacks competent medium level SAM's and even if the Patriot is
inducted there will still be gaps. The Indians have the option of deploying
their SAMs in an arc which is smaller then Pakistan's need to cover almost
its whole border extending right to the Western border.

So what is the solution? I suggest political and economic progress by
Pakistan should be the prerequisite for security otherwise the current trend
looks ominous. It is clear that India is set to smother Pakistan in every
manner. Even the comparative advantages enjoyed by Pakistan for some years
in technology is already gone/eroded. Further the induction of even another
50 top of the line aircraft by the PAF is simply unsustainable from the
economic perspective.

 

[shehbazi2001]

PART-3


You made repeated reference to the French Rafale and whilst I accept that
the PAF has hopes of acquiring this aircraft is such expectation realistic?
The French as we are aware have no scruples in supplying equipment provided
the party receiving can pay for it. Secondly they do so if it does not
affect their national interest. Thirdly such supply does not affect their
long term goals. So can Pakistan afford these aircraft say a fleet of 40?
Can Pakistan afford to pay for these at around US 50 million plus per
aircraft ? Will France wish to endanger the lucrative arms trade it has
going with India? Recall the French offering India complete technology
transfer on the Mirage 2k (& ALPHA jet) to enable domestic production?
Recall the French talking to the Indians about Rafale? The French have also
inked a deal to supply Scorpene class SSK's and will they endanger those
sort of deals by supplying the PAF with Rafale? What/How will the West react
to this scenario of France supplying advanced jets to Pakistan? The answers
do not appear to be positive. Will Arab nations again rally and supply
equipment in the hour of need? Again the answer is not a forgone conclusion
given the level of Indian diplomatic leverage.

The actual danger facing Pakistan is the manner of big power equations
wherein the Indians have managed to stem close and developing ties between
Pakistan and her traditional allies by super imposing themselves into the
equation by appearing to be more moderate, democratic , offering potential
trade concessions and trade opportunity etc. Pakistan unfortunately made
several fundamental errors in the past 2 decades eg seen to be consorting
and supporting extreme fringe elements like the Taliban. Perceived and
shown to have supported terror pre and post 9/11, nuclear proliferation etc.
Whilst the US and the West have maintained that Pakistan is an ally the
ground reality is of course different as seen by the extreme reluctance to
supply necessary equipment to match increasing and dramatic Indian
capability.

Even the nuclear deterrent has started to lose some of its shine as the
Indians are dead serious of developing a potent and overwhelming second and
third strike option eg the recent lease of TU22M3 and Akula class SSN's with
Brahmos Cruise missiles with possible nuke warheads in the pipeline.
Pakistan however has been penalized and marginalized due to its Nuke
capability as it is perceived differently ie dangerous, unstable etc.

The other factor is the close and developing ties between India and Israel
whereby the Indians have been able to secure technology and operational
expertise. Wonder what is contained in the ECCM equipment installed in the
SU 30 supplied by Israel? We in Malaysia also wonder what is contained in
the dorsal spine of Singaporean F 16 Ds' which we know is packed with Israel
supplied equipment.

The challenge for Pakistan is to be strong economically, politically and
being able to seize the moral high ground in international politics. Unless
this is achieved Pakistan is going to be forced to yield much over the
coming years.

 

[fatman17]

Well i don't think so, PAF currenlty lacks BVR capability.

The surce is not credible one.

PAF F-16's currently don't have the ability to carry AIM-7.

and what is the veracity of your understanding (proof) - i have posted something which u r rejecting without any cause!

 

[fatman17]

^^^shehbazijee - your post is certainly informative and making our indian colleagues go ga ga but this is a old assessment as the PAF weapons platforms are undergoing a quantative and qualitative change and a lot of gaps are being plugged. you need to give the PAF high command the benefit of the doubt and yes please be patient.

 

[Nomi929]

and what is the veracity of your understanding (proof) - i have posted something which u r rejecting without any cause!

Look AIM-7 is BVR missile.

And PAF chief's repeatidly said that induction of JF-17 and F-16 Blk 52+ will give Pakistani AirForce the ability of BVR.

When in late 90's our Mirages got upgraded fom Sagem, lot of people saying that these planes have ability of firing BVR missiles , but we never heard such thing about mirages even after a decade.

 

[Munir]

Shebazi,

It is intresting to read but is shows onesided pr. Their mig29 is the oldest version still operational. The MKI is real combat needs to be evaluated yet. We know it cna serve as a bomb truck but I need to see how well it performs against agile small fighters. Mig21 lancer has no range. Their Mirage 2000H are one of the oldest in service and still need to be updated. JAguars is hardly in service. No potent ugrades sofar. Mig27 is antique. LCA will never fly.

I can write the same article with exact opposite points. The points are not very detailled and if he tells that nuclear option lost its shine cause the developed... Then I remembered that we heard often that Patriot could handle even decades old Scud... We know well it performed against Scud and western planes...

 

[Imran Khan]

its one sided reports.he under line our air force and nukes