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But what if Imran Khan has it all wrong?

so much for being a computer commando....eh!!!
T
his title suits you much better:
102nd Chairborne Rangers, Special Forums Operator Delta, The Keyboard Commandos
Hi,
I know right sitting on the far end of the world far away fromall the troubles faced by locals and now showing fake sympathy for them.
Oh the irony

There is a Human Rights Watch link in my previous post if you bothered to look it up before farting away hot air of your own..
Pure typical BS from foreign Funded NGO
 
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Well if you're done with kissing Horus's behind, we can continue..

If one has to drag someone's sons in to the argument to make a point; he's already lost the argument to begin with. Getting personal is just cheap and silly. Of course, cheap and silly people don't see it that way.

The way it seems is that your lips are plastered on IK's bum, than again your lips your business.
Its interesting that a PTI supporters giving a lecture about morality, when the whole family of NS was considered a fair target, even the people who were not agreeing with PTI during Dharna are legitimate targets to worst kind of abuse. But NO NO don't bring IK's children even for sake of argument.
And others are cheap and silly. Ironic.



Out of all Pakistanis, Imran Khan has more right than any one else to feel like he is the Messiah, even though he may or may not be. You are most welcome to bring forth a bigger man than him with the clean character that he has, and whom millions are willing to follow. Even Bhutto was no saint, but people knew who he was and we he could do for Pakistan and therefore he lives on in our memories even if we do not support current PPP for its corruption, etc.

Folks like Bhutto, Imran Khan come once in a 50 or 100 yrs.. I pity the pathetic state of the nation that looks down on such people or engages in polemical criticism just for the sake of criticism.

Of course he is, and as soon as anyone joins PTI, there is instant Political Hajj, all sins forgotten. Now that is really childish. Its amusing to see how both MQM and PTI supporters behave in the same manner, yet cant get along. IK's behavior isnt any difference, and like a broken record may I say his party is full of Bhutto, Nawaz etc loyalists.


Spare us all the one liners please. If you have anything substantive to add, please do, otherwise control your urges to retort/troll.
Haters gonna hate, but sorry your'e the only one making strawman arguments just for sake of argument.


Ah I see.. So you're saying that Pakistan Army's PROFESSIONAL SOLDIERS are on the same moral equivalence scale as TTP barbarians and therefore its OK to torture, kill captured combatants or suspected/alleged militants at point-blank range with a bullet to the back of the head execution style? Wow.. Perhaps Pakistan should take its signature back from the Geneva Conventions to satisfy blood thirsty creatures like yourself.

Oh I see, "Professional soldiers" should not fight these thugs why? Because you said so. Also because youre holding higher moral ground than everyone else, I cant say I am surprised but like any other PTI supporter, labeling others who dont agree and believe that only you have the moral authority is a shared character between IK and his supporters.

As far as Geneva convention is concerned, TTP is a proscribed terrorist organization so I will go George Bush on that whole argument. By the way I have personally lost friends and family fighting TTP so spare me your BS morality.



Reconciliation with whoever is willing to put down the gun and talk. Occupier or no occupier, the strategy of using heavy-handed military force yields limited results always. Liberating / conquering, yada yada, you are most welcome to engage with yourself in the mirror over semantics.

Surprising, your the one who is complaining about talking about IK son, yet I am the one engaging over semantics, but I will let your brain take rest on this one.



Don't spin my words. The only contradiction is in your mind as a result of not being able to comprehend what I said.

I dont need to, youre doing a pretty good job of that. Keep it up.


We are all waiting and itching to see hard evidence of India's backing of TTP, other groups in Pakistan.. I would be ecstatic if we were shown some serious evidence. But so far, its only hot air. Nothing concrete, that is why Pakistan has nothing to show the international community about Indian involvement, only speeches.

Of course there is itch because you support IK, I dont see any other reason for that. Yes PA and GOP please show IK the evidence first, which I am sure had been shared with him. And only when he and his supporters are convinced we shall move forward because they are always right.


Same logic as anyone criticizing Pakistan Army or ISI is labelled an 'amreeki, yahoodi agent' or Indian RAW spy.. lmao! Childish mentality.

Again, arent you the one labeling others here for not agreeing with your POV and criticizing your so called leader. Childish indeed.



There is a Human Rights Watch link in my previous post if you bothered to look it up before farting away hot air of your own..
So now we are talking about farting, here is a free suggestion. Please don't try to be creative with witty puns because in the end as you said they would stink like a fart and farting in public is considered rude by most standards.
 
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The way it seems is that your lips are plastered on IK's bum, than again your lips your business.
Its interesting that a PTI supporters giving a lecture about morality, when the whole family of NS was considered a fair target, even the people who were not agreeing with PTI during Dharna are legitimate targets to worst kind of abuse. But NO NO don't bring IK's children even for sake of argument.
And others are cheap and silly. Ironic.





Of course he is, and as soon as anyone joins PTI, there is instant Political Hajj, all sins forgotten. Now that is really childish. Its amusing to see how both MQM and PTI supporters behave in the same manner, yet cant get along. IK's behavior isnt any difference, and like a broken record may I say his party is full of Bhutto, Nawaz etc loyalists.



Haters gonna hate, but sorry your'e the only one making strawman arguments just for sake of argument.




Oh I see, "Professional soldiers" should not fight these thugs why? Because you said so. Also because youre holding higher moral ground than everyone else, I cant say I am surprised but like any other PTI supporter, labeling others who dont agree and believe that only you have the moral authority is a shared character between IK and his supporters.

As far as Geneva convention is concerned, TTP is a proscribed terrorist organization so I will go George Bush on that whole argument. By the way I have personally lost friends and family fighting TTP so spare me your BS morality.





Surprising, your the one who is complaining about talking about IK son, yet I am the one engaging over semantics, but I will let your brain take rest on this one.





I dont need to, youre doing a pretty good job of that. Keep it up.




Of course there is itch because you support IK, I dont see any other reason for that. Yes PA and GOP please show IK the evidence first, which I am sure had been shared with him. And only when he and his supporters are convinced we shall move forward because they are always right.




Again, arent you the one labeling others here for not agreeing with your POV and criticizing your so called leader. Childish indeed.




So now we are talking about farting, here is a free suggestion. Please don't try to creative with witty puns because in the end as you said they would stink like a fart and farting in public is considered rude by most standards.

By quoting 5 year old topic, so much desperate to gain some attention
 
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No, this is not a thread about the punctures issue nor other areas of political showcraft. The question which is going to be explored here is what if Imran Khan has it all wrong when it comes to TTP.

Over the years we have witnessed Imran's carefully crafted narrative in support of negotiating with the TTP. He drew parallels with the IRA peace process and so on. Cutting the long story short, he did manage to convince many people that negotiations are the only option.

Looking at his narrative carefully over the years, i believe that he is not only ill informed about the conflict but also holds a flawed understanding of conflict dynamics concerning TTP vs the State.

We thought that after the spectacular success of operation zarb e azb and APS massacre Mr. Khan would alter his opinions but as soon as Murree negotiations started between two foreign entities he was singing the old song all over again.

1: His narrative that TTP wants negotiations is misleading as there have been half a dozen attempts to achieve it without any success . Swat is a good example of TTPs mercenary nature where they didn't keep their end of the deal .

2: He grossly underestimates what Pakistan Army can do through focused forced projection. He was trying to create a falsehood that Army feels stuck and we should therefore cut a shady deal with the TTP and pull our forces back. Op ZEA has destroyed his claim.

3: He thinks Murree peace process should be repeated with TTP. What he fails to see is that Afghan Taliban haven't been internationally tagged as a terrorist organization while TTP is.This makes any negotiations with TTP unconstitutional.

4: He has no understanding of the tactical situation on the battlefield. Army has squarely won the war and from this point onwards TTP has no sanctuaries in Pakistan. This means that the state only needs to re establish its writ because negotiations with TTP don't offer any strategic advantage.

5: India is backing TTP, so indirectly we would be negotiating with India ? - On what terms? - to what end ?

6: He lacks compassion. Would he have the same opinion if Sulaiman and Qasim were massacred in APS? - I'd doubt that.

7: He is surrounded by fanatics who actually support the TTP. Not just JI but his party itself has people who hold a soft corner for TTP.

8: He can't contemplate how to politically capitalize on a military victory.

9: He thinks its okay to legitimise an international terrorist group by negotiations conducted with the state.

10: He refused to become part of the delegation of negotiators when a last ditch attempt was made before the operation.

In my opinion IKs judgement on TTP issue is flawed on a moral, political, strategic and tactical level. After the success of the operations in North Waziristan he should be calling for only one kind of negotiations, to lay down the terms of TTP's surrender.

------------------------

Share your thoughts.
I shared the same views as Khan sb up until March 2014 when they massacred our Soliders even when there was a seize fire & dialogue process, we did it all.....but they never wanted that....
And you have rightly narrated that Khan sb may not have fully understood the dynamics of this war, he still lives in a period where elder members of the Tribes were not happy with Pakistan Military siding with US, when PA entered the tribal areas to root out the Foreign Fighters or their Guests.....
But the truth is dynamics of this war changed in 2005 when TTP butchered the Tribal elders and took over their position, in order to boost their personal agenda, and boost their criminal activities.......hence the dynamics completely changed, and this is what many among the General Public have failed to understand

And a humble suggestion or take it as a request, this thread has shown true faces of some of the members on forum, kindly trace out their IPs and handover the info to the Authorities, its people like them who have the potential to become the next bomber or the attacker, better take care of them at this stage.....
 
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Taliban sheltered osama bin laden after he attacked civilian targets using civilian aircraft in US...
They invited US to invade and then failed to put up a fight....

Hi,

If you look at the last 3 or 4 major invasions of Afghanistan---you will find out that the Afghans lost initially----it took them 1 to 4 years to build up momentum to strike at their enemy.

It is old an afghan tradition that they will give away their capitol to the enemy----hide in the mountains and strike from there---forcing the invader to get into the mountains chasing them and that is where they will win their battles.

The enemy will throw in wave after wave of soldiers into the mountains believing in that allusive victory that was close by till they found out that the losses have mounted---and then the afghans would mount a major strike to take back the cities.

The fire power of the American kept them safe and also a lack of surface to air missile with the Taliban worked in favor.
 
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Hi,
I know right sitting on the far end of the world far away fromall the troubles faced by locals and now showing fake sympathy for them.
Oh the irony


Pure typical BS from foreign Funded NGO
and have their own twisted version of humanity, but you should be happy as theres one less person in Pakistan who shares same views as him.....:D

What he failed to understand is that the article he so proudly shared is from 2010.....we are in 2015 now, I wonder if same HRW went back to the same area and tried to question the same Public......
We are in 2015 now and fighting ZAB, and this Op has been covered openly for the Mediaperson......so there is very little doubt left about that.....
as far as EJ killings are concerned then RoE are pretty clear, no innocent is to be heart not even the families of the militants.....
 
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Your former Army Chief said this and TTP leaders are still alive and in fact there would have been no TTP in first place and you would've not lost 90000 Pakistanis if you would've bothered to listen to him from 2003 when he told you don't enter Tribal areas you would get stuck and face massive backlash and guess what sadly he was proven right.
Ok let's say we made the mistake and didn't listen to Imran 12-13 years ago. Now what, we are doomed? Damn if we go tribal in 2014, damn if we don't.

Imran policy failed. You can't just say he's right now because of what he said in 2003. What he says today is where he's definitely wrong, which is, terrorists have nearly been eliminated. Do we see any suciide bombings now? How many people died this year so far compared to last few years?

It is people like you who are cause of terrorism. Instead of nation to be united against the red mosque, you people divided nation saying Musharraf is doing Americas war in return of F16s, which gave rise to TTP. When in fact red mosque was a radical mosque. So Pakistan started being a target of terrorism because we were fighting Americas war, according to people you sympathize with, and we faced civilian backlash. Army lost its face.

If anyone can tell me, don't you think this first 7 months have the year have been far more peaceful than say pre 2005? Anyone have stats?
 
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He was right from day one you wouldn't have faced APS tragedy if you would have bothered to listen to him in 2003 and would have not entered Tribal areas. You are accused of backing Afghan Taliban Sir still Afghan Government is talking with them, talking is best option and isolating as many groups as you can. If you have bothered to listen to last few programs on our channels with troops you would have come to know that many militants had support of entire tribes. You should hope Army has won the war and I also do but we still have lost 90000 people which could have been avoided if you would've listened to him in first place in 2003 when he was telling you not to go inside tribal areas. Sorry negotiations if TTP broke all of them than Army needs cort martial former KPK governor Lt. General Orakzai who tells different story on who broke peace accords. Lastly there would have been no TTP nor we would have lost 90000 innocent Pakistanis including 7000 soldiers if dumbo Musharraf would've not entered Tribal areas, unfortunately Imran was proven right you got stuck in Tribal areas now when ever India opens fire you can't hit back on large scale because you are stuck inside your own country. @Horus Sorry man realities are way to harsh which you are not ready to accept Imran was right on the spot from day one it was former Army Chief and President of Pakistan General Musharraf who wasn't.


USA casualties are more than 2000 90 % of them are killed by Afghan Taliban.
What he was in 2003? A single seat party, right? and you supposed all military listen his crap regarding how to maintain security? Tribal area is part of Pakistan and it's need to clean by terrorists, Mushraff and Kiyani Sahib were not like current COAS they put lighter hand on this issue if they did what Raheel Sahib doing now might be we low losing lives and might be Peshawer school terror not happened.
Stop blaming Ex COAS for your love of tribal area terrorists one dayYOU and your cult leader even cursed General Raheel Sharif Sahib why he launched operation in Tribal area ( according to your pathetic logics ) you were a terrorist supporters and you still, it's just COAS policies your voices are even went down with fear of operation. Do not mix the things with Afghan Taliban moron.
 
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so much for being a computer commando....eh!!!
T
his title suits you much better:
102nd Chairborne Rangers, Special Forums Operator Delta, The Keyboard Commandos

Someone with thousands of forum posts and title of 'analyst' is trolling me. lmao!

Quit this imran worship,the guy did have idiotic insensitive views

Not worshiping him, you and his other detractors just have to try and come up with something where he really is truly at fault vis-a-vis Pakistan's common good.

Hi,
I know right sitting on the far end of the world far away fromall the troubles faced by locals and now showing fake sympathy for them. Oh the irony

So you're saying you are currently typing from a cave in North Waziristan agency? I see..

Pure typical BS from foreign Funded NGO

*yawn* is this amateur hour at defence.pk?
 
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Some points for this thread ... watch the video:

TTP is supported by RAW ... watch the video, unfortunately this matter is not handled in a way it should have been...Pakistan should have made the task of exposing the foreign links of TTP its top priority ...
 
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Hi,

Son, you posted that Link after i demanded it wasnt there. When i quoted you !


And you still have nothing to say about the link or refute it. Everyone knows how Pakistan Army cleared Swat agency; brutal tactics (torture, extra judicial killings, etc) that go against Geneva Conventions signed by Pakistan.

The way it seems is that your lips are plastered on IK's bum, than again your lips your business. Its interesting that a PTI supporters giving a lecture about morality, when the whole family of NS was considered a fair target, even the people who were not agreeing with PTI during Dharna are legitimate targets to worst kind of abuse. But NO NO don't bring IK's children even for sake of argument. And others are cheap and silly. Ironic.

The family Nawaz Sharif is engaged in politics. Neither of Imran Khan's sons are engaged in politics. Since your patwari mind forgot that important detail, I'll let it slide since patwaris have memory loss problems.

Of course he is, and as soon as anyone joins PTI, there is instant Political Hajj, all sins forgotten. Now that is really childish. Its amusing to see how both MQM and PTI supporters behave in the same manner, yet cant get along. IK's behavior isnt any difference, and like a broken record may I say his party is full of Bhutto, Nawaz etc loyalists.

This thread isn't about people joining PTI and what not. If you want to whine and cry about that, you are most welcome to open a new thread to vent your hurt feelings.

Oh I see, "Professional soldiers" should not fight these thugs why? Because you said so. Also because youre holding higher moral ground than everyone else, I cant say I am surprised but like any other PTI supporter, labeling others who dont agree and believe that only you have the moral authority is a shared character between IK and his supporters.

As far as Geneva convention is concerned, TTP is a proscribed terrorist organization so I will go George Bush on that whole argument. By the way I have personally lost friends and family fighting TTP so spare me your BS morality.

Professional Soldiers SHOULD fight TTP thugs, but NOT by stooping to TTP level. Then there is no difference left between a professional soldier and a terrorist, if both behave the same. Your arguments are juvenile at best so I'll chalk it up to non-understanding of International Law, Geneva Conventions, etc. I didn't mention 'morality' at all, simply cited Geneva Conventions which are LAWS governing warfare. I know 'morality' is a lost trait among Pakistanis still living in Pakistan - 'morals' has been reduced to a show-off commodity only in Pakistan where you show others you pray 5 times a day, fast 30 days, etc all the while quietly stabbing your fellow Pakistani in the back by selling him counterfeit products, milaawat waalay food products, etc.

Surprising, your the one who is complaining about talking about IK son, yet I am the one engaging over semantics, but I will let your brain take rest on this one.

I dont need to, youre doing a pretty good job of that. Keep it up.

Of course there is itch because you support IK, I dont see any other reason for that. Yes PA and GOP please show IK the evidence first, which I am sure had been shared with him. And only when he and his supporters are convinced we shall move forward because they are always right.

Again, arent you the one labeling others here for not agreeing with your POV and criticizing your so called leader. Childish indeed.

All that gibberish and yet not a single piece of evidence about India's backing of TTP or anyone else in Pakistan. I'll wait after your egoistic wet-dream is over so you can do some research and present some evidence to back up your empty claims instead of discharging frustrated drivel.

and have their own twisted version of humanity, but you should be happy as theres one less person in Pakistan who shares same views as him.....:D

What he failed to understand is that the article he so proudly shared is from 2010.....we are in 2015 now, I wonder if same HRW went back to the same area and tried to question the same Public......
We are in 2015 now and fighting ZAB, and this Op has been covered openly for the Mediaperson......so there is very little doubt left about that.....
as far as EJ killings are concerned then RoE are pretty clear, no innocent is to be heart not even the families of the militants.....


Whether the article is from 1971, 2010, or any other year, it only goes to show Pakistan Army hasn't learned to stop using torture, extra judicial killings, etc. Just because it happened in 2009/10 and its 2015 now, doesn't mean it was OK. Such silly arguments from someone branded as an 'analyst' by the powers that be here. What a joke! This guy actually thinks media has 'openly' covered Zarb-e-Azb and not what the ISPR markets to media outlets or I should perhaps say 'what ISPR spoon feeds' Pakistani media to show to gullible folks like @balixd so they can sleep peacefully at night humming to themselves, 'aaaal is well'...
 
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Professional Soldiers SHOULD fight TTP thugs, but NOT by stooping to TTP level.

Please enlighten us bringing up some examples of these brutalities,totures and extra judicial killings during zarbeazb. The military have re-thought their strategies. The people were given due time to evacuate. Anyone who failed to accomply has only himself to blame.
 
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Please enlighten us bringing up some examples of these brutalities,totures and extra judicial killings during zarbeazb. The military have re-thought their strategies. The people were given due time to evacuate. Anyone who failed to accomply has only himself to blame.


This thread is NOT specific to Zarb-e-Azb so nice try by attempting to restrict discussion to just one Op.

Pakistan: Extrajudicial Executions by Army in Swat | Human Rights Watch

US 'kept Pakistani army Swat murders secret' | World news | The Guardian (source Wikileaks)

In lawless lands: Amnesty charts human rights abuses in Pakistan’s tribal belt | The Bureau of Investigative Journalism

Pakistan Gripped by Fear and Resignation | Al Jazeera America

Fact of the matter is, it breaks my heart to see Pakistani generals breeding a culture of impunity for human rights violations amongst their cadres. It is a poison that seeps through every organ of the Pakistani military apparatus, be it the ISI, Rangers, FC, regular Pakistan Army troops, etc. Once your loved one disappears from the streets (taken by plain-clothed folks) or swooped up in a 'fishing' expedition in North Waziristan or other agency; GOODLUCK trying to find that loved one alive!

The stuff we go berserk about against American Army, Israeli Army, Indian Army for their human rights abuses and violations; we seem to tolerate it all as long as our own army does it. That's hypocrisy in my book.
 
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This thread is NOT specific to Zarb-e-Azb so nice try by attempting to restrict discussion to just one Op.

Pakistan: Extrajudicial Executions by Army in Swat | Human Rights Watch

US 'kept Pakistani army Swat murders secret' | World news | The Guardian (source Wikileaks)

In lawless lands: Amnesty charts human rights abuses in Pakistan’s tribal belt | The Bureau of Investigative Journalism

Fact of the matter is, it breaks my heart to see Pakistani generals breeding a culture of impunity for human rights violations amongst their cadres. It is a poison that seeps through every organ of the Pakistani military apparatus, be it the ISI, Rangers, FC, regular Pakistan Army troops, etc. Once your loved one disappears from the streets (taken by plain-clothed folks) or swooped up in a 'fishing' expedition in North Waziristan or other agency; GOODLUCK trying to find that loved one alive!

The stuff we go berserk about against American Army, Israeli Army, Indian Army for their human rights abuses and violations; we seem to tolerate it all as long as our own army does it. That's hypocrisy in my book.

Oh man, we really want to do this discussion all over again?

BTW, that first link you posted, it says "This killing etc ain't gonna win hearts and minds in Swat". The article was written in 2010.

Let me ask you, have you been to Swat recently?
 
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