Bush uses anti-terror funds to strengthen Pakistan air force

[blain2]

In Islamic states where there is no democracy per se, it is only material as to who rules.

Not always. The way you classified Syria as a Shia country has a faulty premise. Syrians are not beholden to the Ayatollah who tends to provide religious, moral and political guidance for Shias all over the world. Neither the Syrian Government nor the populace subscribes to the grand Ayatollahs in Iran and Iraq. So not really sure how you made this Allawi connection into a Shia deal?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Not always. The way you classified Syria as a Shia country has a faulty premise. Syrians are not beholden to the Ayatollah who tends to provide religious, moral and political guidance for Shias all over the world. Neither the Syrian Government nor the populace subscribes to the grand Ayatollahs in Iran and Iraq. So not really sure how you made this Allawi connection into a Shia deal?

The facts speaks otherwise.

It is the only country that support Iran amongst the Arabs and also the Hezbollah of Lebanon, who are allied to Iran!!

 

[Vinod2070]

How so? Has that ever happened to any other Pakistani F-16s in the past 25 years? The conditions apply to ensure that there is no technology transfer. Operationally nobody can turn on or off the aircraft once they are in the Pakistani possession.

And are you trying to tell me that things are not kept from various congressional committees by the USG?

I am not saying that. The article I shared talks about a committee hearing where the Assistant secretary shared the terms and conditions of these aircrafts which are being financed by the USA from their anti-terror budget.

I am repeating the terms that he shared. I don't know what else to make of them unless you want to say he was trying to fool the members.

According to the Assistant Secretary, the plan requires
· site surveys and end-use monitoring, including annual inventories of all equipment related to the F-16s, by US officials;
· dedicated facilities for storage of spare parts and maintenance;
· strict limitations on access to the planes;
· complete segregation of the F-16s from third country-origin aircraft;
· express permission from the US government before Pakistan can fly the planes outside of its own airspace;
· full compliance with the security plan before the planes, weapons and equipment can be delivered.

 

[blain2]

The facts speaks otherwise.

It is the only country that support Iran amongst the Arabs and also the Hezbollah of Lebanon, who are allied to Iran!!

No they do not. Them supporting Iran and Hizbollah does not make them Shia. A fairly simplistic view of the country, its demographics and policies.

 

[blain2]

I am not saying that. The article I shared talks about a committee hearing where the Assistant secretary shared the terms and conditions of these aircrafts which are being financed by the USA from their anti-terror budget.

I am repeating the terms that he shared. I don't know what else to make of them unless you want to say he was trying to fool the members.

The terms all address the concern around transfer of this technology to China. Nothing less, nothing more. Has nothing to do with putting restrictions on the operational use of these aircraft by the PAF.

 

[Energon]

The $220 million is only the beginning, if we play our cards right the entire upgrade and acquisition of additional F-16's could come from USA under EDA programme.

Funds raised by government to finance the $5.2 billion MDA project will now partly be diverted towards JF-17 and FC-20.

Simply brilliant!

Not really. Every dollar in "goodwill" that Pakistan thinks its usurping actually ends up costing a whole lot more when you consider its perpetual position as a rental state. These are exactly the things that keep a rental state in its position of subservience.

This however is not to say that Pakistan shouldn't take handouts from the USA. Of course it should; however these funds if diverted towards the social sector and general development and modernization would have far more meaningful returns than some hack WoT sponsored F-16 scheme.

"American aircraft have dropped 40% more bombs—646 bombs and missiles were used in June alone."

"American ground commanders immediately called in artillery and air strikes from a B-1 bomber, as well as A-10 and F-15E attack planes. Apache helicopter gunships and a remotely piloted Predator aircraft fired Hellfire missiles at the insurgents, military officials said."

A better question for NATO ...

The operational doctrines of the Pakistan armed forces and their western counterparts are nothing alike. For the latter, integrated battle management with small ground forces coordinating strikes using a vast array of air and space assets is the norm, which is not the case for the PA/PAF.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

No they do not. Them supporting Iran and Hizbollah does not make them Shia. A fairly simplistic view of the country, its demographics and policies.

I would be surprised to find a Sunni nation supporting Shias and Shia nations when the whole Arab Sunni world is up in arms against Iran and are apprehensive of the Shia stranglehold over Iraq!!

If Syria was not supporting the Hezbollah why were they forced out of Syria by the US assisted by all Sunni Arab nations?

 

[blain2]

This however is not to say that Pakistan shouldn't take handouts from the USA. Of course it should; however these funds if diverted towards the social sector and general development and modernization would have far more meaningful returns than some hack WoT sponsored F-16 scheme.

Why not do both? That is help out the social sector as well as the Pakistani military. Why don't you guys use your multi-billion dollar defence budget for social uplift only as that would be much more meaningful than spending on gleaming new MKIs and MMRCA? (God knows people in India need this money). The reason is an obvious one. You have received massive aid in the past from the Russians and even Americans when faced with an external threat (that of China) and you can't understand why Pakistan needs to do the same?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The operational doctrines of the Pakistan armed forces and their western counterparts are nothing alike. For the latter, integrated battle management with small ground forces coordinating strikes using a vast array of air and space assets is the norm, which is not the case for the PA/PAF.

That is not what the F-16 upgrades were criticized for, and coordinated air strikes have in fact been utilized by the PA in FATA, during various ops.

The context of the comments made (criticizing the F-16) was ignorant of the complexities of coordinated airstrikes, which might have been understandable. It was instead a direct critique of the usage of a particular weapons platform, despite the fact that NATO forces have utilized the same for a long time now.

 

[blain2]

I would be surprised to find a Sunni nation supporting Shias and Shia nations when the whole Arab Sunni world is up in arms against Iran and are apprehensive of the Shia stranglehold over Iraq!!

If Syria was not supporting the Hezbollah why were they forced out of Syria by the US assisted by all Sunni Arab nations?

Syria supports Hizbullah because of its conflict with Israel. How does that make them or their policies shia? Syrians see the pressure on Iran in the light of the Israeli moves to isolate Iran and also Hizbullah which provides significant leverage to Syria in Israel's neighborhood. For as long as the Golan Heights are with the Israelis, Syrians will use their Hizbullah leverage and deflect pressure upon themselves by supporting Iran and its proxies in Lebanon.

It makes sense for the Syrians (Sunni or Alawi) to have some leverage (whether through Hizbullah or anyone else).

 

[blain2]

The operational doctrines of the Pakistan armed forces and their western counterparts are nothing alike. For the latter, integrated battle management with small ground forces coordinating strikes using a vast array of air and space assets is the norm, which is not the case for the PA/PAF.

How do you know that the doctrine is nothing alike? Can't Pakistan not be working to get to a similar Air-land doctrine where the infantry units on the ground can call upon the PAF for strikes? I already know that FACs with the units are integrated...this is going on for Cobra operations so why not for the PAF?

 

[Neo]

What is the latest on the CJ and his Court?

Any positive or negative movements in this case?

No changes there and I expect it to remain so till Mushrraf if fully removed.

One must never underestimate the US of A.

They have their cake and eat it too!

True, very true! But after six decades of flirting with USA I think we k now how to play them.
Pakistan's geo-political value is not to be underestimated either, Imho after Israel Pakistan is second most important country in Asia for USA...she can't afford to lose for a long time.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Syria supports Hizbullah because of its conflict with Israel. How does that make them or their policies shia? Syrians see the pressure on Iran in the light of the Israeli moves to isolate Iran and also Hizbullah which provides significant leverage to Syria in Israel's neighborhood. For as long as the Golan Heights are with the Israelis, Syrians will use their Hizbullah leverage and deflect pressure upon themselves by supporting Iran and its proxies in Lebanon.

It makes sense for the Syrians (Sunni or Alawi) to have some leverage (whether through Hizbullah or anyone else).

Then why does the Sunni Arab nations not see it from the same standpoint?

 

[Neo]

Not really. Every dollar in "goodwill" that Pakistan thinks its usurping actually ends up costing a whole lot more when you consider its perpetual position as a rental state. These are exactly the things that keep a rental state in its position of subservience.

I disagree on the 'rental state' part. US' handouts come under EDA programme as reward for our support in WoT, we're partners helping eachother.
Pakistan is in transition and no longer depends on US' weapons, China's ready to fill in the gap. Thats exactly the reason why we're getting US weapons without being compromising our integrity.
We'll never be in position of sebservience the way we did a decade ago.

This however is not to say that Pakistan shouldn't take handouts from the USA. Of course it should; however these funds if diverted towards the social sector and general development and modernization would have far more meaningful returns than some hack WoT sponsored F-16 scheme.

US has just trippled non military aid to $1.5 billion per annum. These funds are sufficient to stabalise the economy.
Defence modernisation and expansion is as important at this moment as the revival of economy.

 

[Energon]

Why not do both? That is help out the social sector as well as the Pakistani military. Why don't you guys use your multi-billion dollar defence budget for social uplift only as that would be much more meaningful than spending on gleaming new MKIs and MMRCA? (God knows people in India need this money). The reason is an obvious one. You have received massive aid in the past from the Russians and even Americans when faced with an external threat (that of China) and you can't understand why Pakistan needs to do the same?

By "you guys" I assume you're talking about Indians. I can't speak for them directly, but from what I understand India does not have foreign aid when it comes to military procurement programs for the MKIs and MRCAs, which means they have to get these on their own (as they should). Also, Russian aid of yesteryear came primarily in tech transfers, subsidized production licenses and such; not monetary. India's military expenditure is lesser than the 3% GDP norm while the expenditure on the social sector is rising exponentially as we speak, so they're certainly on the right path. Also, their armed forces are undergoing a comprehensive upgradation program which although conceived in 1999 (post Kargil) couldn't be achieved until now in the light of over a decade and a half of economic growth... as it should be.

This nonetheless has nothing to do with the Pakistan model, which is totally dissimilar. Nor are the problems faced by each country alike (I'm not sure why India was even brought up in this situation). The acuity of the societal problems marring west Pakistan are far greater than most other places in the world right now and every available dollar should be spent on the social sector. Unless the populace inhabiting these areas are offered credible alternatives to radical religious organizations in the form of schools, employment, law & order, health care, infrastructure, etc. the bleak picture will never change. To make this happen billions of dollars are needed (NOW), and it just so happens that in the case of Pakistan there is a way to acquire these funds. It would be foolish not to do so.

Lastly, the military need not be left in the dust. More affordable Chinese alternatives are being procured for the armed forces; so there really isn't a need for the F-16s.

It would also be unfair to solely lay the blame on Pakistan. There is undoubtedly a push from US military corporations to further their sales of expensive products, and foreign aid packages to troubled third world nations have historically provided the best opportunities to achieve this (dubious) objective. Given the influence these companies have with public representatives (particularly in this administration) this is turning out to be a cash cow for them. All of this has to stop ASAP.