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Bush planned Pak attack

@Muhammad-Bin-Qasim

The way you describe the reply to a possible invation to Pakistan by US won't happen at all coz any ruler will try to avoid such kinda situation to a super power. It is like even it is okay to lose my two eyes if my enemy lose one eye.

So the better is not to lose two eyes and at all.
 
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Sorry Chogy... mean no ill intention against the US... Its basically political talk here... and I m taking all imaginary pleasure that enemies of Pakistan (the Indians here) take in thinking America can and will attack Pakistan...

I understand your feelings, my friend. Threads like "Country A vs. Country B" in all-out war are popular thought experiments. I felt like I needed to reinforce that the original notion was not attacking the entire nation of Pakistan so much as attacking a few, very limited militants that might be taking refuge in remote areas.

It would be like Mexico attacking a camp in the State of Arizona, deep in the desert there, that has a training facility, arms, and people who enter into Mexico to attack. Any foray by Mexico into Arizona wouldn't continue on the Washington. They'd clean out the camps, then get out.
 
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Trump cards are options that can be used to achieve an objective without loosing much or prevent unfavorable events from occuring.
Yes you are right. However what if those trump cards are outright rejected? You can go ahead and Nuke India for all US care. Did you ponder over that??? Also US already have too much fire power for Pakistan, don't you think you will make matters worse for you to involve India in any way??? Thirdly conventional war is one thing and nuclear is another. It is not a joke to nuke one country just for the sake of it....I am not even counting the GPS system that missiles depends the most to deliver payload

For example: Pakistan Cuts NATO Supply Route After Chopper Attack Kills Border Guards

Pakistan pulled a trump card by blocking a major NATO supply route, which forced the NATO high command to apologize to us for that unfortunate incident. With the help of this trump card, we prevented tensions from escalating and brought a very powerful foe to its senses without loosing much.
I will like you to ponder a bit more on it...Look at the thread that we are discussing....If we agree with Bush then there was a real plan to attack jihidis well inside Pak..This itself tells the trump card and how much weigh it has....Please note that there a lot of actions that you do for public consumptions. Air-Space was violated even before but killing of PA personnel was over the line and NATO rightfully apologized, however blocking of route has been percieved as BlackMail and in your third strategic talk it has been made very clear to you....Also please note that Pakistan is not the only route for NATO, yes it the most cost effective route but not the only route....

As far as loss/gain due to blockage is concerned then only time will tell. Above all i consider it as a very bold and right move by Pakistan....


Similarly, if Pakistan's existence is threatened by a powerful adversary (which is too powerful for Pakistan to handle), Pakistan can threaten to pull off a trump card of initiating MAD in South Asia. In this manner, we can prevent that powerful enemy from attacking us in the first place and save ourselves from doom. Point is that we may or may not conduct the necessary action but our enemy will have 'second thoughts' about the repercursions of such an action, unless of-course, it is hell bent to destroy us. However, would India or China support such an action?
Hell no India and China would never want US action right in their neighbourhood. However the moment you will threaten NATO about nuclear strike on India, India will immediately point all her nukes towards you and will not wait for the first strike to happen. In other words the moment our top-brass is convinced that Pak is going to launch nukes all bets about no-first use will be off...Between what you are risking here is a massive joint attack on your nuclear fascilitation which is going to be deadly. So the last thing that Pak would want is to push India join camps with US, no???


This option is not just for Pakistan. India might also have similar plans in place, if its survival is threatened.

I don't think the option is correct.

Remember Cuban Missile crises? Americans actually pulled a trump card of MAD to send USSR home.
I am not sure what you read to conclude like that. There was a bargain, though USSR side did not get as much attention as the cuban. Remember during early part of Cold-war USSR was as powerful as NATO if not more. So there is no trump card thingi...MAD is not something that only USSR had to worry about....
 
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Suppose that another 9/11 like or even worse event occurs in US and culprits are identified as some how linked to extremist elements in Afghanistan or even Pakistan. What will happen then?

In that scenario USA may get in more hazardous situation by attacking Pakistan seriously - even there is a risk of nuke-use by terrorists. What will be the gain after attacking PK as like Afghan? Can USA say that by attacking Pakistan the war will be finished within 10 or 20 years. That will be something like mortal combat. By the way, USA is always smarter.
 
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I understand your feelings, my friend. Threads like "Country A vs. Country B" in all-out war are popular thought experiments. I felt like I needed to reinforce that the original notion was not attacking the entire nation of Pakistan so much as attacking a few, very limited militants that might be taking refuge in remote areas.

It would be like Mexico attacking a camp in the State of Arizona, deep in the desert there, that has a training facility, arms, and people who enter into Mexico to attack. Any foray by Mexico into Arizona wouldn't continue on the Washington. They'd clean out the camps, then get out.

But sir any military attack inside a sovereign nation no matter how big/small will compel the armed forces to intervene and repell the attack, no???
 
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let say in a hypothetical scenario, US attacks pakistan.....dont u people think, first they will try to flush out the nuclear capabilities of pakistan? because it is the most powerful thing that pakistan have...
 
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let say in a hypothetical scenario, US attacks pakistan.....dont u people think, first they will try to flush out the nuclear capabilities of pakistan? because it is the most powerful thing that pakistan have...
Yes! Our nuclear facilities and delivery systems would be in grave danger under such a scenario, as these things are of great strategic importance and significance.

Point is that even if one Nuke manages to land in to India, Pakistan will succeed in dragging India in to the war and widen the conflict.

The reason why India is a potential target in such a scenario is due to its old enmity with Pakistan. We (Pakistani) know that if Americans decide to act against us, Indians will support the Americans.

Yes you are right. However what if those trump cards are outright rejected? You can go ahead and Nuke India for all US care. Did you ponder over that??? Also US already have too much fire power for Pakistan, don't you think you will make matters worse for you to involve India in any way??? Thirdly conventional war is one thing and nuclear is another. It is not a joke to nuke one country just for the sake of it....I am not even counting the GPS system that missiles depends the most to deliver payload
Yes! This is why I am against wars. They will harm us in the end regardless of what happens during the conflict.

Pakistan already has suffered a lot from wars. However, if some states are conspiring against Pakistan, what options do my nation have?

WOT was not Pakistan's war. However, we were forcibly dragged in to it and it suffocated our economy.

I will like you to ponder a bit more on it...Look at the thread that we are discussing....If we agree with Bush then there was a real plan to attack jihidis well inside Pak..This itself tells the trump card and how much weigh it has....Please note that there a lot of actions that you do for public consumptions. Air-Space was violated even before but killing of PA personnel was over the line and NATO rightfully apologized, however blocking of route has been percieved as BlackMail and in your third strategic talk it has been made very clear to you....Also please note that Pakistan is not the only route for NATO, yes it the most cost effective route but not the only route....
I agree that NATO is not dependant upon us for operations in Afghanistan. It can use other routes to get its job done.

However, NATO has not yet decided to abandon Pakistani route and about 40% of its supplies still go through Pakistan. Main benefit is cost saving. Other routes are more expensive. This liverage is our trump card.

As far as loss/gain due to blockage is concerned then only time will tell. Above all i consider it as a very bold and right move by Pakistan....
Agreed.

Hell no India and China would never want US action right in their neighbourhood. However the moment you will threaten NATO about nuclear strike on India, India will immediately point all her nukes towards you and will not wait for the first strike to happen. In other words the moment our top-brass is convinced that Pak is going to launch nukes all bets about no-first use will be off...Between what you are risking here is a massive joint attack on your nuclear fascilitation which is going to be deadly. So the last thing that Pak would want is to push India join camps with US, no???
Yes! This is indeed a serious challenge. America alone is too powerful for Pakistan and even India.

And an American-Indian coalition would be an absolute nightmare scenario for Pakistan.

The purpose of this trump card is to deter Americans from attacking Pakistan in the first place. So far it is working.

If it does not works, than God help Pakistan.

I don't think the option is correct.
Hmm!

I am not sure what you read to conclude like that. There was a bargain, though USSR side did not get as much attention as the cuban. Remember during early part of Cold-war USSR was as powerful as NATO if not more. So there is no trump card thingi...MAD is not something that only USSR had to worry about....
Trump card is not about power but liverage under a certain scenario.

In that scenario USA may get in more hazardous situation by attacking Pakistan seriously - even there is a risk of nuke-use by terrorists. What will be the gain after attacking PK as like Afghan? Can USA say that by attacking Pakistan the war will be finished within 10 or 20 years. That will be something like mortal combat. By the way, USA is always smarter.
Brother, America will fight a war with Pakistan on its own terms than. This is the scary part. We do not have resources to deal with a super-power.
 
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@Legend - I would like to acknowledge that you are a very reasonable poster. Your posts(even though i have slight disagreement) are very sensible and not coming from mere jingoism. Please continue to do that.

Regards
 
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Pakistan planned and war-gamed such an attack in 2001....

every country war games and plans such things; I bet US even has a hypothetical plan of attack against Saudi Arabia, Turkey and of course Russia Iran Venezuela & China


what REALLY happens and what, in closed circles, is planned merely for hypotheticals, are worlds apart

if they werent, then Iran would have been attacked AGES ago
 
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Pakistan planned and war-gamed such an attack in 2001....

every country war games and plans such things; I bet US even has a hypothetical plan of attack against Saudi Arabia, Turkey and of course Russia Iran Venezuela & China


what REALLY happens and what, in closed circles, is planned merely for hypotheticals, are worlds apart

if they werent, then Iran would have been attacked AGES ago

Eggjactleeeee my point! :D

All:

Please keep in mind that ALL militarily powerful countries conduct planning exercises on ALL sorts of scenarios ALL the time.

Please do not confuse PREPAREDNESS with IMPLEMENTATION.

Now, what was the topic again? :lol:
 
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In that scenario USA may get in more hazardous situation by attacking Pakistan seriously - even there is a risk of nuke-use by terrorists. What will be the gain after attacking PK as like Afghan? Can USA say that by attacking Pakistan the war will be finished within 10 or 20 years. That will be something like mortal combat. By the way, USA is always smarter.


The U.S's smartness is pretty much evident from their decision to attack the Least developed country in the world and not being able to win in almost 10 years.(Afgh)

So imagine if the US could not take Afgh from the poorly armed band of militia, how could they ever think of Invading Pakistan and being successful with it. Remember The Taliban do not have Surface to Air Missiles of any sort. However, Pakistan is swarmed with domestically manufactured portable SAMs which could turn the tide of the battle as we saw pretty clearly in the Afgh War.

.. This topic is pure rubbish, perhaps some people do wish that was the case however even if it was, it would eventually disappoint them.

Not to mention the Nukes... Pakistan could easily target Israel and I think we all know that Israel is the Parrot within which America's soul rests. So taking out the beast means simply taking out the Parrot. :)... and how could we ever forget The CROW on our eastern border... lol
Hum toh Doobay hein sanam, tumko bhee saath lein doobein gey..U get it now why Pakistan would attack Israel and India in such a scenario?
 
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bush the dog and his team done 9/11 ,so next step common sense would be to presure pakistan ,musharaf was in on the game :agree:
 
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The U.S's smartness is pretty much evident from their decision to attack the Least developed country in the world and not being able to win in almost 10 years.(Afgh)

So imagine if the US could not take Afgh from the poorly armed band of militia, how could they ever think of Invading Pakistan and being successful with it. Remember The Taliban do not have Surface to Air Missiles of any sort. However, Pakistan is swarmed with domestically manufactured portable SAMs which could turn the tide of the battle as we saw pretty clearly in the Afgh War.

.. This topic is pure rubbish, perhaps some people do wish that was the case however even if it was, it would eventually disappoint them.

Not to mention the Nukes... Pakistan could easily target Israel and I think we all know that Israel is the Parrot within which America's soul rests. So taking out the beast means simply taking out the Parrot. :)... and how could we ever forget The CROW on our eastern border... lol
Hum toh Doobay hein sanam, tumko bhee saath lein doobein gey..U get it now why Pakistan would attack Israel and India in such a scenario?

Instead of the bold option, better is to agree to US whatever they ask for instead of ending the mankind.
 
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The U.S's smartness is pretty much evident from their decision to attack the Least developed country in the world and not being able to win in almost 10 years.(Afgh)
Afghan territory heavily favors guerilla warfare. Americans are fighting an ideology over there. That is the problem.

Also, Americans are not willing to bring heavy fire-power in to that region like they did in Iraq. They are trying to develop an Afghan army which would be able to carry out military operations on its own. Strategy is to let the Afghans fight other Afghans.

In addition, incompetence of Obama's administration is another issue. He kicked out Mullen who understood Afghanistan better than others and he (Obama) was planning exit from Afghanistan in 2011. He also thinks that Pakistan is responsible for all the problems in Afghanistan. He needs to get some reality check.

Now that Republicians have regained power, they will knock some sense in to Obama.

So imagine if the US could not take Afgh from the poorly armed band of militia, how could they ever think of Invading Pakistan and being successful with it. Remember The Taliban do not have Surface to Air Missiles of any sort. However, Pakistan is swarmed with domestically manufactured portable SAMs which could turn the tide of the battle as we saw pretty clearly in the Afgh War.
Brother, try to understand ground realities.

Taliban lost lot of men during the 'Shock and Awe' phase of OEF in Afghanistan. Why did this happen? Taliban attempted to engage Americans in the open. In the end, Taliban government fell and the survivors escaped in to designated safe-havens.

Read more about it here:

U.S. invasion of Afghanistan

Now these survivors have re-organized resistance movement and they conduct covert operations against the invaders and the puppet Afghan government. We use the term 'guerilla warfare' to explain these actions.

Still Afghanistan has nothing significant to loose from the war as it is already a crippled state.

On the contrary, see the case of Iraq where Americans have achieved victory. My point is that properly functioning economies have got to loose a lot in case of a war.

Pakistan is far more developed in comparison to Afghanistan. We have got to take care of billions of dollars worth of infrastructure in Pakistan, upon which our survival depends. We don't want to go back to 'stone age'. This is not what Qaid-e-Azam (founder of Pakistan) strived for. I guess you understand my point.

Also, our SAM capabilies are not very potent. Anza III firing range is around 15 km. The best SAM systems in our inventory probably have a range of around 30 km and we have these in very few quantities.

We need to first realize our weaknesses and try to overcome them. If we would continue to think that we currently are in a good shape than this would be our undoing. We need to progress and become a powerful nation like China. Only than, we would be able to successfully protect our interests from all kinds of threats. Strong economy paves way for strong deterrence.

.. This topic is pure rubbish, perhaps some people do wish that was the case however even if it was, it would eventually disappoint them.
Topic is not rubbish. If a former US president is saying something against Pakistan than that concerns us.

Not to mention the Nukes... Pakistan could easily target Israel and I think we all know that Israel is the Parrot within which America's soul rests. So taking out the beast means simply taking out the Parrot. :)... and how could we ever forget The CROW on our eastern border... lol
Hum toh Doobay hein sanam, tumko bhee saath lein doobein gey..U get it now why Pakistan would attack Israel and India in such a scenario?
Yes! This is a great Trump Card for us. Nuclear deterrence does have its benefits. Thanks to our scientists.
 
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