Bush planned Pak attack

[Chogy]

I knew this thread would devolve badly into an all-out war, with armored thrusts into Islamabad, and F-22 vs. F-16. The original premise, which was nixed by Musharraf, was combat along the border, targeting extremists. NOT the "conquering of Pakistan."

The arguments against it were made, and the original plan never happened.

 

[nightcrawler]

Forget it
US versus Pakistan
Just forget it; until of coarse that happens after our mutual friendship with Russia; & that will happen after taking down India; & yes that can be done hehe

 

[Bang Galore]

Aircraft carriers are not a problem... We can use nukes strategically to wipe them out...

Have you also considered that Pakistan would involve India in such a scenario as we have been discussing...

So like LeGend said... There is no possibility of America attacking Pakistan...

Indians should smoke that in their pipes for a change... Mugarmach Kaheen Ka

.

I say chap, forget what Indians smoke; you need to stop smoking whatever you have been immediately. It seems to be scrambling what's left of your brain cells. You want to use a nuke strategically on an American carrier fleet? Btw, what does strategically mean? Another word for suicide by stupidity?

But Legend their air superiority planes are not long range are they?

Also... how about we involve the Israelis in this conflict too... America has a lot to lose with such a thing...

What I m getting at is this...

If we are pushed into the corner... We should be ready to go out with all guns blazing...

We do have the ability to strike Israel dont we?

Anyone else, the russians? the French, the Chinese?

Exactly... so let us not bring their aircraft carriers into this either... They are not stupid... If they can bomb us... we can bomb them, India and Israel too...

Or how about smuggling in a nuke to American mainland itself...

I mean before anyone gets shocked at reading this particular statement of mine, Pakistan and Pakistanis should start talking with some basic dignity to America... Its a scandal that the president of an allied nation is talking about attacking us... How dare they...

I dont get the logic of its ok to be bombed by America but not India...

What are you? an imbecile? You really believe our missiles wont leave our border? Do you think we will just be waiting and do nothing if someone tried to nuke us? Grow up for heavens sake...

Man, you need to grow up & then come back to this forum.

 

[majesticpankaj]

few pakistanis want to finish the war in one day by indulging India, US and Israel simultaneously...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I m simply ignoring the fools from India on this thread...

My point is why do we even talk about America can, may, will, will not destroy us if it wanted... Its as if our own military which is supposed to be defending us, in the process of scaring us from this big monster that we need to be bowing to at all costs...

Why?

 

[LeGenD]

As for the video of Iraq being bombed... Iraq is surrounded by six countries most of them were helping the Americans doing their butchering...

In the middle east, only kuwait served as staging ground for NATO forces for invasion of Iraq.

Legend and Gounder are saying that Pakistanis will sit and do nothing if bombed by America... (actually this is already happening)... I m talking about main cities instead of their excuse of targeting terrorists in the tribal areas...

This raises some alarm bells in my head... Will some other members comment on this please... It is not exactly off topic as its part of the same discussion...

Brother, I never stated that Pakistani will not do anything if invaded by NATO forces. Problem is that their is a limit to what we can do.

Without viable economy, our war machine will be stalled within few days. What can you expect than? Civilian resistance? That is not enough to stop the most powerful military in the world.

Aircraft carriers are not a problem... We can use nukes strategically to wipe them out...

They are big problem, brother.

Also, American Naval forces have ABM capabilities (PDF warning).

A recent test should open some eyes:

The Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force (JMSDF) and the United States Missile Defense Agency (MDA) announced the successful completion of an Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense (BMD) intercept flight test, in cooperation with the U.S. Navy, off the coast of Kauai in Hawaii.

The event marked the fourth time that a JMSDF ship has engaged a ballistic missile target, including three successful intercepts, with the sea-based midcourse engagement capability provided by Aegis BMD.

The JFTM-4 test event verified the newest engagement capability of the Japan Aegis BMD configuration of the recently upgraded Japanese destroyer, JS KIRISHIMA. At approximately 5:06 p.m. (HST), 12:06 p.m. Tokyo time on Oct. 29, 2010, a separating 1,000 km class ballistic missile target was launched from the Pacific Missile Range Facility at Barking Sands, Kauai, Hawaii.

JS KIRISHIMA crew members detected and tracked the target. The Aegis Weapon System then developed a fire control solution and launched a Standard Missile -3 (SM-3) Block IA missile. Approximately three minutes later, the SM-3 successfully intercepted the target approximately 100 miles above the Pacific Ocean. JFTM-4 is a significant milestone in the growing cooperation between Japan and the U.S. in the area of missile defense.


Also participating in the test was USS LAKE ERIE and USS RUSSELL, Aegis ships which cooperated to detect, track and conduct a simulated intercept engagement against the same target.

This capability can limit our potential to inflict damage to enemies in the oceanic environment.

Also, aircraft carriers are mostly stationed at safe distances. USAF can use mid-air refueling capabilities to conduct operations inside Pakistan. The bomber fleet can operate without these complications.

Have you also considered that Pakistan would involve India in such a scenario as we have been discussing...

So like LeGend said... There is no possibility of America attacking Pakistan...

Indians should smoke that in their pipes for a change... Mugarmach Kaheen Ka

Yes! This is a very effective trump card we can pull. Due to this factor, we can deter American forces from attacking Pakistan.

But Legend their air superiority planes are not long range are they?

Brother, mid-air refueling capabilities are the key:-

YouTube - F-22 RAPTOR AIR REFUELING

YouTube - Stealth Bomber Mid-Air Refueling

Welcome to 21st century warfare. Why do you think that lots of Airforces are crazy about this capability? It gives provides them the necessary means to conduct long range operations.

Also... how about we involve the Israelis in this conflict too... America has a lot to lose with such a thing...

What I m getting at is this...

If we are pushed into the corner... We should be ready to go out with all guns blazing...

We do have the ability to strike Israel dont we?

You want to trigger Operation Samson (MAD for middle-east)?

Who will loose than?

I m simply ignoring the fools from India on this thread...

My point is why do we even talk about America can, may, will, will not destroy us if it wanted... Its as if our own military which is supposed to be defending us, in the process of scaring us from this big monster that we need to be bowing to at all costs...

Why?

Brother, take it easy.

We are nation of limited resources. Even then we have achieved a lot in case of improving our security. We have nothing to fear from America because it is not a threat to us.

However, we need to learn from our mistakes and try to become a powerful nation like China. It will take time but it will pay us well. India is going in this route as well.

We shall start by learning from Bush. His remarks are indeed eye-openers for us.

Once we become powerful, it would be lot easier for us to safe-guard our interests.

Armaggeddon is not the solution.

 

[deckingraj]

Yes! This is a very effective trump card we can pull. Due to this factor, we can deter American forces from attacking Pakistan.

You seems to be an intelligent poster so i will give you benefit of doubt. May i know what exactly you mean by this???

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

I don't get this logic. I have heard it from other Pakistanis before. Lot of fans of Saddam Hussein it seems - in the gulf war, he launched Scuds at Israel. But the reason he did was so that Israel gets drawn into the war and the Arab countries providing a base to the Americans would withdraw from the coalition. Frantic diplomacy by the Americans prevented Israel from entering the war.

But what exactly will Pakistan gain by attacking India and Israel if they are attacked by the US? No tangible benefit at all - only doubling the amount of weaponry that will fall on Pakistan! What silly logic is that?

That is a little more sensible...

What you are missing here is Pakistan's capability to annihilate Israel and India (and itself) in the process of an unjust war imposed on it by America...

I have a big problem with people who think America is run by fools who would actually consider doing such a thing and think that there would be no retaliation or consequences of such a scenario... and I m sick and tired of this being presented as an excuse for our hopeless situation on the ground within Pakistan (and our image across the world as undignified and worthless people who will sell their own mothers for a cheap price)...

So if Bush planned Pak attack as the title of the thread is suggesting, perhaps we need to plan what we can (and will) do in case such a thing becomes a reality...

Does anyone here willing to state that Pakistan's army will be like Iraq's army and its General's will sell Pakistan's defence like the Baathists did in Iraq with no resistance from Pakistan's military in case Americans send B52s to bomb us?

For God sake my brothers... America has no desire to attack Pakistan and if they do then please not get bogged down in they are so powerful that we can simply do nothing against them... Lets get out of this mentality... We represent a state that is going thru a lot of problems and we need to start becoming assertive and hold our heads high with some dignity in these testing times...

We are not slaves of America and we should stop acting like we are...

....

Sorry Chogy... mean no ill intention against the US... Its basically political talk here... and I m taking all imaginary pleasure that enemies of Pakistan (the Indians here) take in thinking America can and will attack Pakistan...

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

In the middle east, only kuwait served as staging ground for NATO forces for invasion of Iraq.


Brother, I never stated that Pakistani will not do anything if invaded by NATO forces. Problem is that their is a limit to what we can do.

Without viable economy, our war machine will be stalled within few days. What can you expect than? Civilian resistance? That is not enough to stop the most powerful military in the world.


They are big problem, brother.

Also, American Naval forces have ABM capabilities (PDF warning).

A recent test should open some eyes:


This capability can limit our potential to inflict damage to enemies in the oceanic environment.

Also, aircraft carriers are mostly stationed at safe distances. USAF can use mid-air refueling capabilities to conduct operations inside Pakistan. The bomber fleet can operate without these complications.


Yes! This is a very effective trump card we can pull. Due to this factor, we can deter American forces from attacking Pakistan.


Brother, mid-air refueling capabilities are the key:-

YouTube - F-22 RAPTOR AIR REFUELING

YouTube - Stealth Bomber Mid-Air Refueling

Welcome to 21st century warfare. Why do you think that lots of Airforces are crazy about this capability? It gives provides them the necessary means to conduct long range operations.


You want to trigger Operation Samson (MAD for middle-east)?

Who will loose than?


Brother, take it easy.

We are nation of limited resources. Even then we have achieved a lot in case of improving our security. We have nothing to fear from America because it is not a threat to us.

However, what we need to learn from our mistakes and try to become a powerful nation like China. It will take time but it will pay us well. India is going in this route as well.

We shall start by learning from Bush. His remarks are indeed eye-openers for us.

Once we become powerful, it would be lot easier for us to safe-guard our interests.

Armaggeddon is not the solution.

Very insightful... Many thanks for that!!!!

 

[Muhammad-Bin-Qasim]

Two points from your posting Legend...

Saudis also helped the Americans. Their air force has operated from Saudi bases during the Iraq war.

Operation Samson. Everyone loses.

 

[LeGenD]

You seems to be an intelligent poster so i will give you benefit of doubt. May i know what exactly you mean by this???

Trump cards are options that can be used to achieve an objective without loosing much or prevent unfavorable events from occuring.

For example: Pakistan Cuts NATO Supply Route After Chopper Attack Kills Border Guards

Pakistan pulled a trump card by blocking a major NATO supply route, which forced the NATO high command to apologize to us for that unfortunate incident. With the help of this trump card, we prevented tensions from escalating and brought a very powerful foe to its senses without loosing much.

Similarly, if Pakistan's existence is threatened by a powerful adversary (which is too powerful for Pakistan to handle), Pakistan can threaten to pull off a trump card of initiating MAD in South Asia. In this manner, we can prevent that powerful enemy from attacking us in the first place and save ourselves from doom. Point is that we may or may not conduct the necessary action but our enemy will have 'second thoughts' about the repercursions of such an action, unless of-course, it is hell bent to destroy us. However, would India or China support such an action?

This option is not just for Pakistan. India might also have similar plans in place, if its survival is threatened.

Remember Cuban Missile crises? Americans actually pulled a trump card of MAD to send USSR home.

 

[Skies]

It will be the last day of peace for USA, lol. USA will get in a very hazardous situation. USA will not dare to do it - never.

 

[VCheng]

All:

Please keep in mind that ALL militarily powerful countries conduct planning exercises on ALL sorts of scenarios ALL the time.

Please do not confuse PREPAREDNESS with IMPLEMENTATION.

Now, what was the topic again?

 

[LeGenD]

It will be the last day of peace for USA, lol. USA will get in a very hazardous situation. USA will not dare to do it - never.

It depends upon the circumstances.

Current geo-political scenario does not favors US action against Pakistan. Such an action will not be justified because Pakistan is a front-line state in America's WOT.

However, let us consider a worst case scenario:-

Suppose that another 9/11 like or even worse event occurs in US and culprits are identified as some how linked to extremist elements in Afghanistan or even Pakistan. What will happen then?

Hillary already has given a hint. Their would be sever consequences for Pakistan in such circumstances.

Americans would manage to rally the support it needs to take action against Pakistan under such circumstances. All other things would be secondary.

This is what we need to prevent in the first place. We need best possible solution for Afghanistan problem. Our future depends upon how things turn out in Afghanistan.

 

[Peacefulll]

That is a little more sensible...

What you are missing here is Pakistan's capability to annihilate Israel and India (and itself) in the process of an unjust war imposed on it by America...

I have a big problem with people who think America is run by fools who would actually consider doing such a thing and think that there would be no retaliation or consequences of such a scenario... and I m sick and tired of this being presented as an excuse for our hopeless situation on the ground within Pakistan (and our image across the world as undignified and worthless people who will sell their own mothers for a cheap price)...

So if Bush planned Pak attack as the title of the thread is suggesting, perhaps we need to plan what we can (and will) do in case such a thing becomes a reality...

Does anyone here willing to state that Pakistan's army will be like Iraq's army and its General's will sell Pakistan's defence like the Baathists did in Iraq with no resistance from Pakistan's military in case Americans send B52s to bomb us?

For God sake my brothers... America has no desire to attack Pakistan and if they do then please not get bogged down in they are so powerful that we can simply do nothing against them... Lets get out of this mentality... We represent a state that is going thru a lot of problems and we need to start becoming assertive and hold our heads high with some dignity in these testing times...

We are not slaves of America and we should stop acting like we are...

....

Sorry Chogy... mean no ill intention against the US... Its basically political talk here... and I m taking all imaginary pleasure that enemies of Pakistan (the Indians here) take in thinking America can and will attack Pakistan...

So basically you are taking a stance on the lines of: "If the US dares to attack us, we will harm India and Israel badly, no matter if Pakistan ceases to exist after that".

Does not sound very sane to me. It is very easy to talk of such stuff, but when you think of your own sweet lives, and the lives of your immediate and extended family in Pakistan, this policy won't seem to good anymore. Because if a country starts playing a 'nothing-to-lose' game with their enemies, the enemies will not bother about invading, taking control, regime change, and so on. There will be a month of constant three way bombardment from sea, air and land, and that's about the end of it. An 'ordinary' conflict with the USA though (completely hypothetical, not that it will happen), will involve minimal civilian casualties, only the loss of the air force and navy, and a lot of industry and infrastructure. That will be followed by regime change, etc. Now, why do you expect that the first option will be better from Pakistan's perspective? Do you stay in Pakistan btw? And if not, do you have a family there?