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Building a new ‘Mandar’ in Riyasat-e-Madina is against the spirit of Islam: Ch Pervaiz Elahi

Chhoro Chacha, he is obviously doing it for a purpose, it isn't innocent. No point in wasting time on a Pakistani bhakt.
But how bad is it . These guys cry day night for muslims of whole world and can not tolrate a place of worship for pakistani hindu miniority .whole country is on fire for a temple .sharam ki baat hai.
 
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Imran Khan has to pay back the favors of chanda, donations and gifts that he has been extracting from indians for decades by constructing this mandir in Islamabad, as if Islambad iskay baap ki jageer hai. This reminds me of a saying that a Bugti Baloch colleague of mine in Karachi during my short stay there told me that in Balochi they have a saying that "Var thagain dard gana" or in Urdu "kisi ka khaya huwa pait mein dard karta hai".
 
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It seems the people on PDF ( and I mean PDF not Pakistan ) holds two different opinions over building temples in Pakistan and from what I am reading from the members ( Seniors and relative New Members ) it seems like both of the parties are not understanding the matter through the Constitution and the Law given by Allah .

On one side the Constitution of Pakistan that Allows minorities to be free to go their places of Worship but Muhammad Ali Jinnah also in his speeches emphasize on the Constitution of Pakistan will surely be guided by the Divine Book Quran, The conflict of Ideas between the two sides where One side wants temples to be raised for minorities as they are our subjects and their rights are due to us as taught by the Prophet Muhammad Pbuh but on the other hand we have no relative example where Muhammad Pbuh himself ever appreciated or let a newly build Temple or place of Worship for Allat ul Uzza which were the 2 major Idols in Kaaba , I am noticing people here trying to be secular and presenting themselves to be the savior of Pakistan in their desperate attempt to outdo the man who was called " Rehmat ullil Aalameen " Mercy for the mankind , and on the other hand we have those who wants let the minorities worship their Gods from their homes and many of their logic comes from the Sunnah of Prophet at the conquest of Mecca when Muslims destroyed the Idols in Kaaba without having a tiny bit sentiment of those who wants to hold of the religion of their ancestors. So the Question Arise that are we the people of Pakistan trying to pretend to be better than the people who conquest the mecca that include Abu Bakr , Umar , Uthman , Ali , Abu ubaida , Khalid , Amr Ibn Aas , Saad bin Ibi Waqas RA to All ?

The Circumstances is changed and as this is Pakistan and not Hijaz which is the Stronghold and birth Place of Islam, the people are extremists on both sides, on one side we have those Liberals who just want to be accepted in the western Society and their life long achievement is that someone of White skin calls them a Moderate Muslim, Thats it for them and on the other hand we have those extremists that wants to relive the times of Prophet by destroying the temples considering it to be Sunnah which is applicable to them after a 14 hundred year long changes in the civilization and societies . One must not forget that the Arab Land of 7th Century was different yet very similar to the modern day Pakistan and I can draw some similarities to both .

When Muhammad Pbuh first laid the foundation of the first welfare state of Medina which inherit the Christians and Jews of Medina and zam them into one Nation and become the subjects of States, while they were given complete autonomy and freedom to practice their faith, rule by their laws we haven't seen the same ruling for the Idol worshipers which were either converted to Islam or died fighting the Prophet . I urge people to study and understand the topic which is sensitive to a country like Pakistan and also sensitive to the people of Pakistan ( Hindus & Sikhs ) who are mainly Idol worshipers which comes under the category of Shirk ( one of the greatest Sin in Islam ) People need to understand that Prophet ordered the Idols of Kaaba to be removed but he did not forced anyone to willing destroy their Gods, they did it after the they experience the treatment of Muslims to them hence they did the job themselves, so for us we don't need to follow up the Prophets Order by claiming that just because our prophet did it so shall we by setting fires to temples, after the Death of Prophets we saw new religions been born like Sikhism and hence its followers are now a integrated part of societies across the world, as a Muslim if we are true to our faith, such temples or Gurdwara will not shake the foundation of our Deem , Imaan ( Faith ) for us they are our subjects which trusted their matters and lives to us by abiding by our laws and pay the taxes to the Islamic State of Pakistan, which puts them and their places of Worship under the protection of the State of Pakistan . Yes Idol worship is wrong and Haram but so are many other things, we should not become so secular that we start hating our own historical identities and what we are a Monotheist faith, and this is what most of the Secular's are in path to become, sooner or later them or their future generation will hate their own faith just to be accepted in the more " secular and modern Society " .

There are countless Hadith and narrations on the vary situation where Prophet shows concern and warn people about that in the later times holding on Islam will become so hard and people will be ashamed to practice or even talk about their faith, and we are seeing it today all over the world hence Pakistan is no exception .

In the last, I would say that Temples are places of Worship for certain people and they believe their God resides in those idols, now we are not in a conquering era where we have to defend Islam from the Attacks from outside, in fact Islam is in danger today from the Muslims themselves than any outer threat , as these People are subjects of Pakistan and law abiding People it is our duty by the indirect sunnah of Prophet to protect their rights and places of Worship, we are given a more non violent or aggressive way of dealing with Idol worshipers by calling them to Islam through Dawah rather than forcing them to convert or not allowing them to build their places of Worship, let us not forget that every human who worship either a Idol , baba , Guru , Jesus , Fire , Volcano , Animal or whatever that prayer goes to Allah and he listens to all and he Provides to All , he withheld the judgement to whom he will Punish for what crimes to himself and it is not in our Auqaat and place to tell or argue with Allah on things he put only for himself . If Allah wills the destruction of Pakistan no one can stop it , If Allah will the Protection of Pakistan no one can harm it, remember that .. When Gibrael A.S was given orders to destroy the Nation of Loot AS , he made a stop with 2 other angels at the house of Ibrahim A.S to give him the glad tiding of the upcoming son, And Ibrahim AS try to Argue with Angels about the destruction of the whole Nation and they responded, we were given Orders to deliver the Message or Destruction it is not our place to question the Will of Allah nor does anyone can, whatever we or anyone can argue Allah has already thought and act on it before he made his decision .

As for my both sides of Pakistani's , the temple is indeed a place of Idol worshiping but they are not undermining our laws or faith by calling us or forcing us to follow like in India they force Muslims to chant Jai Shri Ram, as a state's Loyal Subjects it is our duty to protect their rights and stand for them cause they are our people , but also in the process we must not lose our own identity and image as a Muslim , we are someone who are suppose to achieve peace through Surrendering our Wills and Desires to Allah, hence we must not act on the desires and will of our own because it could be what Shytan would want us to do .

Guard yourself from the Fitna of dividing the Islam, Guard yourself against any ill thought for your fellow human beings, guard yourself from losing yourself and your identity , and most importantly stick to the Teachings of Prophet and Quran as long as your hold them both tight, there is no way you will perish even if the whole world is against you .

@Joe Shearer I wrote this another thread on the same topic, The issues is not simple but complicated , if you look from the outer laying it does seems very simple and basic human right issue, but if you go deep in the aspects of the what is allowed and what'd not, than it becomes complicated, and honestly none of us is qualified enough to educated the masses on the subject .

@AgNoStiC MuSliM it is my request to you that make sure that you keep a balance in this thread, you should understand that the sentiments can be high so if you or another mods try to suppress the voice of any side it will only push them towards taking a much hostile position .. @waz @PakSword @WebMaster It is not just about the image of Pakistan but understand the spirit of Islam and teaching of Prophet, it has to dealt with extreme caution .
 
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It seems the people on PDF ( and I mean PDF not Pakistan ) holds two different opinions over building temples in Pakistan and from what I am reading from the members ( Seniors and relative New Members ) it seems like both of the parties are not understanding the matter through the Constitution and the Law given by Allah .

On one side the Constitution of Pakistan that Allows minorities to be free to go their places of Worship but Muhammad Ali Jinnah also in his speeches emphasize on the Constitution of Pakistan will surely be guided by the Divine Book Quran, The conflict of Ideas between the two sides where One side wants temples to be raised for minorities as they are our subjects and their rights are due to us as taught by the Prophet Muhammad Pbuh but on the other hand we have no relative example where Muhammad Pbuh himself ever appreciated or let a newly build Temple or place of Worship for Allat ul Uzza which were the 2 major Idols in Kaaba , I am noticing people here trying to be secular and presenting themselves to be the savior of Pakistan in their desperate attempt to outdo the man who was called " Rehmat ullil Aalameen " Mercy for the mankind , and on the other hand we have those who wants let the minorities worship their Gods from their homes and many of their logic comes from the Sunnah of Prophet at the conquest of Mecca when Muslims destroyed the Idols in Kaaba without having a tiny bit sentiment of those who wants to hold of the religion of their ancestors. So the Question Arise that are we the people of Pakistan trying to pretend to be better than the people who conquest the mecca that include Abu Bakr , Umar , Uthman , Ali , Abu ubaida , Khalid , Amr Ibn Aas , Saad bin Ibi Waqas RA to All ?

The Circumstances is changed and as this is Pakistan and not Hijaz which is the Stronghold and birth Place of Islam, the people are extremists on both sides, on one side we have those Liberals who just want to be accepted in the western Society and their life long achievement is that someone of White skin calls them a Moderate Muslim, Thats it for them and on the other hand we have those extremists that wants to relive the times of Prophet by destroying the temples considering it to be Sunnah which is applicable to them after a 14 hundred year long changes in the civilization and societies . One must not forget that the Arab Land of 7th Century was different yet very similar to the modern day Pakistan and I can draw some similarities to both .

When Muhammad Pbuh first laid the foundation of the first welfare state of Medina which inherit the Christians and Jews of Medina and zam them into one Nation and become the subjects of States, while they were given complete autonomy and freedom to practice their faith, rule by their laws we haven't seen the same ruling for the Idol worshipers which were either converted to Islam or died fighting the Prophet . I urge people to study and understand the topic which is sensitive to a country like Pakistan and also sensitive to the people of Pakistan ( Hindus & Sikhs ) who are mainly Idol worshipers which comes under the category of Shirk ( one of the greatest Sin in Islam ) People need to understand that Prophet ordered the Idols of Kaaba to be removed but he did not forced anyone to willing destroy their Gods, they did it after the they experience the treatment of Muslims to them hence they did the job themselves, so for us we don't need to follow up the Prophets Order by claiming that just because our prophet did it so shall we by setting fires to temples, after the Death of Prophets we saw new religions been born like Sikhism and hence its followers are now a integrated part of societies across the world, as a Muslim if we are true to our faith, such temples or Gurdwara will not shake the foundation of our Deem , Imaan ( Faith ) for us they are our subjects which trusted their matters and lives to us by abiding by our laws and pay the taxes to the Islamic State of Pakistan, which puts them and their places of Worship under the protection of the State of Pakistan . Yes Idol worship is wrong and Haram but so are many other things, we should not become so secular that we start hating our own historical identities and what we are a Monotheist faith, and this is what most of the Secular's are in path to become, sooner or later them or their future generation will hate their own faith just to be accepted in the more " secular and modern Society " .

There are countless Hadith and narrations on the vary situation where Prophet shows concern and warn people about that in the later times holding on Islam will become so hard and people will be ashamed to practice or even talk about their faith, and we are seeing it today all over the world hence Pakistan is no exception .

In the last, I would say that Temples are places of Worship for certain people and they believe their God resides in those idols, now we are not in a conquering era where we have to defend Islam from the Attacks from outside, in fact Islam is in danger today from the Muslims themselves than any outer threat , as these People are subjects of Pakistan and law abiding People it is our duty by the indirect sunnah of Prophet to protect their rights and places of Worship, we are given a more non violent or aggressive way of dealing with Idol worshipers by calling them to Islam through Dawah rather than forcing them to convert or not allowing them to build their places of Worship, let us not forget that every human who worship either a Idol , baba , Guru , Jesus , Fire , Volcano , Animal or whatever that prayer goes to Allah and he listens to all and he Provides to All , he withheld the judgement to whom he will Punish for what crimes to himself and it is not in our Auqaat and place to tell or argue with Allah on things he put only for himself . If Allah wills the destruction of Pakistan no one can stop it , If Allah will the Protection of Pakistan no one can harm it, remember that .. When Gibrael A.S was given orders to destroy the Nation of Loot AS , he made a stop with 2 other angels at the house of Ibrahim A.S to give him the glad tiding of the upcoming son, And Ibrahim AS try to Argue with Angels about the destruction of the whole Nation and they responded, we were given Orders to deliver the Message or Destruction it is not our place to question the Will of Allah nor does anyone can, whatever we or anyone can argue Allah has already thought and act on it before he made his decision .

As for my both sides of Pakistani's , the temple is indeed a place of Idol worshiping but they are not undermining our laws or faith by calling us or forcing us to follow like in India they force Muslims to chant Jai Shri Ram, as a state's Loyal Subjects it is our duty to protect their rights and stand for them cause they are our people , but also in the process we must not lose our own identity and image as a Muslim , we are someone who are suppose to achieve peace through Surrendering our Wills and Desires to Allah, hence we must not act on the desires and will of our own because it could be what Shytan would want us to do .

Guard yourself from the Fitna of dividing the Islam, Guard yourself against any ill thought for your fellow human beings, guard yourself from losing yourself and your identity , and most importantly stick to the Teachings of Prophet and Quran as long as your hold them both tight, there is no way you will perish even if the whole world is against you .

@Joe Shearer I wrote this another thread on the same topic, The issues is not simple but complicated , if you look from the outer laying it does seems very simple and basic human right issue, but if you go deep in the aspects of the what is allowed and what'd not, than it becomes complicated, and honestly none of us is qualified enough to educated the masses on the subject .

A very beautiful post. Yes, beautiful. I will read it again because it covers all the main points with humility and frankness.

I never knew you had this inside you!!!

Two things in partial response. I have read - cannot trace it in a hurry - that Hazrat Mohammed stipulated to his followers that they should not allow any house of worship within the land of Arabia. That, to me, implies that he was indifferent about their doing so outside Arabia.

This is in no way connected to the deep analysis of the current context that appears in your post.

The second is that Sikhs do not worship idols; not even the Guru is worshipped as God, merely as a teacher. God, to the Sikh, is inanimate, and there is no conflict, as I know it, between their view of God and Islam's view. To be sure, that is also true of the Buddhists. They do not worship Buddha; their faith is based on right practices and right thoughts, somewhat on the lines of Parsi practice, but without Parsi theogony. I don't know why these should be repugnant to Islam; alien, non-conformist, but not guilty of Shirk, either of them.
 
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every civilization impose restrictions on minorities for building new worship place,europe also not allowed building of mosques for thousands of years and spain converted mosques to churches,but even after they allowed they impose restrictions on loud calling of Azan as well slaughtering animals for sacrifice openly,similarly china and russia also disallowed building of new mosques in their history and india also is demolishing mosques and banned loud calling of Azan,In many western countries women are not allowed to wear burqa and mayanmar budhists brutality killed thousands of burma Muslims so first ask this logic from these nations who call them as secular but show clear bias towards Islam
That's quite a list of fascist and totalitarian regimes.
Tolerance and inclusivity is it's own reward.
 
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A very beautiful post. Yes, beautiful. I will read it again because it covers all the main points with humility and frankness.

I never knew you had this inside you!!!

Two things in partial response. I have read - cannot trace it in a hurry - that Hazrat Mohammed stipulated to his followers that they should not allow any house of worship within the land of Arabia. That, to me, implies that he was indifferent about their doing so outside Arabia.

This is in no way connected to the deep analysis of the current context that appears in your post.

The second is that Sikhs do not worship idols; not even the Guru is worshipped as God, merely as a teacher. God, to the Sikh, is inanimate, and there is no conflict, as I know it, between their view of God and Islam's view. To be sure, that is also true of the Buddhists. They do not worship Buddha; their faith is based on right practices and right thoughts, somewhat on the lines of Parsi practice, but without Parsi theogony. I don't know why these should be repugnant to Islam; alien, non-conformist, but not guilty of Shirk, either of them.

I guess as I grow the life is bringing the better of me, we'all get phases of life where we start off as someone but eventually turned into a whole different person altogether :) I guess that's what make us Humans ..

The reason i tag you is that I can trust you with a response of a serious topic with a equally non mocking response, and this needs to be handled differently as its about 2 religions ,and also we have to make sure that we do not pass wrong or inflammatory remarks that could directly or indirectly harm the image of Pakistan .

now this point you raised honestly requires a further readings, What i know that when Muslims enter Kaaba the idols were taken down, now the point to note here that at this point mecca is full of Idol worshipers and they were still hostile to Muslims, now from a Meccan prospectus if you see, than Muslims enter the city with force and take down their Idols , very very not cool from a future standards of human rights, but again as i said there were people among the Army who were some of the best humans who ever walk the earth ( for us ) and they did not think or care about the sentiments of the meccan and they keep on destroying the idols one after the other, so were they wrong ? one thing to notice and important that when they enter the mecca they were reciting this And say: Truth has now arrived, and Falsehood has perished: for Falsehood by its very own nature is bound to perish.” Holy Quran: Chapter 17 Verse 81 . We also have to understand that Muslims were coming the most scared place in their religion , with a decades long persecution they face, now they have power and to them the truth has overcome as Allah promised to them, Adreline would have been high I am sure and it was no less than a miracle that no blood shed or revenge was taken at that day .

Now what follows has to closely monitor , Muhammad Pbuh pardoned everyone and they come out to meet the Prophet, some took Oath and some take their time we can give example of Abu Sufiyan who become Muslim right before the Muslim enter Mecca to Suhail Ibn Abdullah who was hiding in his home fearing for his life for what he did to Prophet in Past, he was pardoned and later he accepted Islam, now the point i am making that people who took time to convert would have held down to their idol but Muslims were not instructed to go in the homes and break them, nor Muhammad Pbuh first order as leader was to go and destroy all places of Idols . We wont be wrong to say that he destroyed the idols with his Character and Teaching , not by hand or sword .

now Hindu's living here for centuries its their land and home, its the rulers that changes over time . And we have to respect that, if someone is not ready to break their idols than it is not our place to go in their temples and homes to break them, our duty and Sunnah is that we teach them, we peruse them with love, kindness and mercy in hope of that Allah will guide them to the right path, connecting this to the modern day temple building we can play safe and leave the rest to Allah, we are not building Temples to misguide our people or attacking the faith of Muslims , but we are building the temple for those who worship it, but from our view even their wishes and prayers is directed to Allah , they may bow down to a Grave or idol but it is Allah who listen to all and give to all ( from Strictly Muslim Prospect ) .

And appreciated for correcting me on sikhism, but What i see from Sikhs as they bow ( Do Sajdah ) in their Gurudwara's , which is considered to be act of Shirk under Islamic rule, I think and you can correct me that Wahe Guru is a Non Human entity much like Allah and Yahwe .

@Star-Lord

The positive rating for your post is not condescension but a mark of sincere respect. I am an agnostic, but the depth of feeling and understanding in your post was deeply moving.

You're most welcome :tup:
 
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While the political aspect of it relates more to bargain points for dismissal of corruption accusations; the question of where it is to be built isn’t the problem but if. That “if” revolves around the core of Pakistan and whether it will truly reflect the ideals of M.A Jinnah and inspiration from the values of Islam, or be a regressive banana republic like Afghanistan is or even North Korea.

Members can be seen expressing opinions on both sides but the Lizards tail of using religious loghorrea as the argument is starting to raise its head.

@Starlord has given a balanced view to this but his voice may be drowned out soon by the self appointed Mahdis in the forum.
 
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Pakistan needs to give a pluralist image in contrast with Hindu India. Government mustn't heed the warnings by these lunatics, who fail to see why Pakistan is doing this. A few decades of Zia ul Haq's vibes that Pakistan has been giving out has tarnished its image in the world. Gimmicks like these are to repair that image.
 
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turkey has converted church of Hagia Sophia to mosque after conquering Constantinople and also many turkish origin invaders of india are famous for demolishing somnat mandirs
weren't the Ottomans that conquered Constantinople, I thought that made them a legitimate successor to many of the Islamic states.

no one in world care when any Mosque is bombed as world powers also do this when they carryout air attacks on Muslim countries but when any nonMuslim place of worship is attacked it is highlighted and criticized more in western media,the location of this mandir is not right as many schools ,colleges and offices as well as sunday market is located in H-9 and already traffic problems are high which will become more worse and result in more pain to ordinary public
Laughable. Don't the Pakistani Hindus pay taxes too? Don't they have a right to worship their religion in their temples and be protected by the tax funded security forces? Someone mentioned in another thread that there are around 3,000 Hindus in Islamabad. If they want to build their temple, then what is biting you?

When TTP was bombing mosques, were you at that time propagating that no more mosques be built?



They probably feel envious regarding how much clout the religious fascist have in Pakistan. I'm certain they would do the same if they could gain that much clout.
 
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