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BUET beats IIT to become Asia West champion in Moscow programming contest

When I was younger, in my early 20s, I too lived with the notion that certain communities, ethnic groups, nationalities etc are better at something, while others are good at something else. After 2 decades and some more wisdom, I can conclusively say that it is all a matter of having a head-start, and where you lack head-start, initiative.

Educated, privileged people in all countries are more successful, regardless of their man made classifications. I was born in a Brahmin family in North India and all my growing years I heard that business is for Marwaris / Jains / Aggarwals / Gujaratis and people like me are destined to fail. I did fail, but the reasons had absolutely nothing to do with my caste.

Trashing Indian IT skills is not going to give anyone any head-start and is rather juvenile. People who do not live in India have no idea of how big and thriving this sector is. Stereotyping Indians as lacking in innovation is cliched and if you dislike cliches about yourself, you should desist from tagging others with it. Why is it that inventing only an OS or a search engine qualifies as innovation? Why is good software design not innovation? Why is a high performing app that handles millions of transactions a day not innovation?

In any case if Indians are coolies, BDs and Pakistanis are no Nikola Teslas and Benjamin Franklins either. All of us developing country folks are improving and adapting existing systems for our own markets. We have a large business community and huge populations. For us Enterprise, B2C and B2B software is a no brainer. If your market requires helping farmers get better prices by reaching the customer directly, you don't sit and invent a new OS or search engine. The thousands of riders who deliver meals to doorstep need an intuitive app, in their local language, with good google maps integration. What has this got to do with inventing a super computer or a new jet engine? Innovations could be in process, in distribution and cost efficiencies and quality control too.

Franky this notion of innovation is too outdated and we South Asians continue to undermine our capabilities and treating ourselves as second grade to westerners.
How did Indian IT sector devalop?
What were thier policies?
What can governments do especially the English speaking countries like we have in SA?

Innovation comes with time you have to do dumb work and learn from it - but also devalop your higher education so when you're doing dumb work in parallel you're devaloping for high level stuff too
For the future

- I am ignorant to Hindu civilization that's why I am asking
Aren't brahmins like top caste so why can't they do business? (According to stereotype)
 
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LOL. Why should it take billions to develop an OS. Did those two Canadians who wrote the QNX v1 have billions ? I too have written a very simple, QNX-inspired OS some years ago and all I required was a regular Windows PC on which I learnt x86 Assembly language and then wrote the OS on Linux using the BCC compiler ( Bruce's C Compiler ) and ran it within an emulated PC environment using the Bochs emulator / virtual machine. Did I have billions ? I and a financing person co-founded a company to further commercially develop the OS but had to close down the company because of non-technological reasons. It won't take billions to do this. All it takes is a person or persons who can design and write the code accordingly, and Infosys and TCS don't have that intellectual capacity.
Lol yourself. Has anyone heard of QNX OS? Thanks for letting me know there is an OS named QNX. And again, neither infosys nor TCS do not need to develop an OS to be successful. They're successful regardless of it.
 
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How did Indian IT sector devalop?
What were thier policies?
What can governments do especially the English speaking countries like we have in SA?

Innovation comes with time you have to do dumb work and learn from it - but also devalop your higher education so when you're doing dumb work in parallel you're devaloping for high level stuff too
For the future

- I am ignorant to Hindu civilization that's why I am asking
Aren't brahmins like top caste so why can't they do business? (According to stereotype)

TLDR alert.

There are various theories on how the Indian IT sector developed and all of them carry some truth. According to me these are the reasons:

  • India has had a concentration of technology establishments in Bangalore since post Independence. These include ISRO, HAL, NAL, BEML, HMT etc. These attracted top talent from all over India, but particularly the south Indian Brahmins. Referring my previous post, Brahmins have had a head start in education, especially south Indian Brahmins. Yes, all Brahmins are not highly educated. The regions which were colonised by the British first - Bengal and Chennai region, got access to British style education earlier and held on to that advantage till almost late 1990s, until colleges started mushrooming all over the country.
  • Bangalore became a sort of hub of people with scientific temper, just like Silicon Valley did for Americans. Why did Detroit become an automobile hub? Or Wichita, Kansas an aviation hub? Because the supply chain developed in these regions. It just needs that initial spark. In software you need a supply chain of people instead of parts. Bangalore had that supply chain.
  • There are other factors that worked in Bangalore's favour:
    • Bangalore has arguably the most liveable climate in the world
    • Apart from the technology establishments I mentioned earlier, Bangalore has always had a huge military presence. Bangalore as a city thrived because it served as a British military base against nearby Mysore, which was Tipu Sultan's capital. All this lead to influx of a heterogenous population and a certain lowering of the language barrier. People could understand Hindi better than in Chennai or in cities of the Malabar coast. Thus more influx of talent, and not just south Indian.
  • Infosys (brahmin founders), Wipro (Muslim founders), HCL (Hindu Nadars, supposedly backward caste), TCS (Parsi founders), Patni Computers (Jains) were the companies that created that spark, which led to the creation of ancillary service providers. Many employees from these companies went on to start their own companies and the ball had been set rolling. Note that the religion of founders is of little consequence and these companies resemble each other closely in their employee mix.
  • This growth could not have happened in isolation. India had set up IITs and Regional Engineering Colleges (RECs) all over the country and these had been producing a reliable supply of talent. Graduates from these colleges dominated the initial IT companies, however as new private colleges came up, the supply became more diverse. Indians started getting overseas contracts, mainly from Banking and Financial Services companies in US and Europe. The USP was lower cost, same quality and very importantly a readily available 'bench' workforce, which meant that teams could scale horizontally and vertically very quickly and there was no downtime. With time Indians developed Design, Architecture, Project and Program Management capabilities too as they started getting increasingly larger and more complex projects. The rest is history.

Interestingly these 4-5 founding companies are no longer the most sought after for employment any more. New graduates want to work in new age startups (which are to be found literally in every building in India) and for them the old IT giants are practically ancient.

I am not one to stereotype, but there is something about south Indian ethos which were a contributing factor. These are:
  • A certain seriousness and rejection of over-the-top flashy behaviour
  • More focused and methodical
  • Prioritization of skills over personality
  • Frugal mindset, which helps in controlling cost

Hence all southern Indian states now have their IT hubs. Andhra Pradesh has Hyderabad, Tamil Nadu has Chennai, Kerala has Kochi and Trivandrum. Maharashtra though not south India has Pune and Mumbai. Bangalore is only the most famous, the other cities give it tough competition. In north India apart from the Delhi region (which includes Gurgaon and Noida), there is no true IT hub.

On its part what the government did was disappear from the picture altogether. It announced tax holidays and gave big technology parks the status of Special Economic Zones (SEZs) which came with its own benefits. Setting up a company was easier and businessmen in this sector had to deal with virtually zero regulation and government interference. For Indians this was a huge relief and everyone wanted to work in this sector. That is it. All the government had to do was get out of the way. The healthy competition between cities led to state governments giving more and more incentives to set up IT parks. It would however be premature to conclude that the government had purely good intentions at heart. One of the reasons is that it did not understand the industry well at all and did not know how to regulate it.

Having a large pool of English speaking people helped. However, this is more important in client facing roles, and spoken English is not a major deterrent. Many software engineers come from tier 2 and tier 3 cities and do not speak English very well. Good comprehension of English helped India in BPO industry, which exploded in the late 90s and created its own set of IT needs like call management systems, ticketing systems, document management systems etc. It all snowballs ultimately. The huge population is a magnet for smart people who want to build consumer facing apps like shopping, taxi riding, tourism, food delivery, movie tickets etc. Few countries in the world can boast of such a market. Pakistan and BD are very well placed in this regard too and it is only a matter of when, not if the snowball effect happens.

Regarding Brahmins, there are a lot of misconceptions.
A large number of brahmins, especially in northern and eastern India are economically backward. This is why they have opposed caste based reservations and are in favour of reservations based on economic status. They are top caste only in name. In a world increasingly dominated by business, they are having to adapt. Having said that, the Brahmins in south India have traditionally been entrepreneurial and own some of the biggest companies. The brahmins of Bengal turned landlords / zamindars / businessmen after they tasted economic success under British rule. In western and northern India Brahmins continue to favour employment rather than starting a business, but as startups grow this is more of a simplification and I cannot back this up with data.

In PDF India is regularly trolled for its baniya mindset, but some amount of baniya mindset is necessary (regardless of what your caste is as a founder or visionary). Without the constant pursuit of more business, lowering costs and finding solutions to new problems you will not create that initial spark. Hunger is necessary for growth. It is the hunger of some baniya which will create a company, a factory and jobs for thousands of others.
 
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Lol yourself. Has anyone heard of QNX OS? Thanks for letting me know there is an OS named QNX.

In the RTOS field QNX OS is legendary. QNX Neutrino OS is used in nuclear reactors, factories and other industries, automobiles, military machinery, medical machinery and even on the Canadarm robotic arm on the American Space Shuttle. Some years ago I had read that even the Russian military uses QNX v4. Windows and Linux are not reliable and efficient and hence are not used in these time-and-life-critical applications.

You can consult this website.

And again, neither infosys nor TCS do not need to develop an OS to be successful. They're successful regardless of it.

They are nothing. Tell me, who will be respected - Infosys or QNX ?
 
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Innovation comes with time you have to do dumb work and learn from it - but also devalop your higher education so when you're doing dumb work in parallel you're devaloping for high level stuff too
For the future.
Western civilization is the most innovative because it has innovative culture founded on critical thinking, free inquiry, respect for rights including copyright, safe work environment, equal opportunity laws, cooperation among western nations in business and academics, and other factors.

Visualcapitalist.com
How Much Countries Spend on R&D

Research and development (R&D) expenditure is certainly one of these factors – and while it doesn’t always directly correlate with innovation outcomes, it does represent time, capital, and effort being put into researching and designing the products of the future.

Rank Country R&D Spending (PPP) Global share (%)
#1 United States $476.5 billion 26.4%
#2 China $370.6 billion 20.6%
#3 Japan $170.5 billion 9.5%
#4 Germany $109.8 billion 6.1%
#5 South Korea $73.2 billion 4.1%
#6 France $60.8 billion 3.4%
#7 India $48.1 billion 2.7%
#8 United Kingdom $44.2 billion 2.5%
#9 Brazil $42.1 billion 2.3%
#10 Russia $39.8 billion 2.2%
#11 Italy $29.6 billion 1.6%
#12 Canada $27.6 billion 1.5%
#13 Australia $23.1 billion 1.3%
#14 Spain $19.3 billion 1.1%
#15 Netherlands $16.5 billion 0.9%
All other countries $249.8 billion 13.9%
 
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QNX Neutrino OS is used in nuclear reactors, factories and other industries, automobiles, military machinery, medical machinery and even on the Canadarm robotic arm on the American Space Shuttle. Some years ago I had read that even the Russian military uses QNX v4. Windows and Linux are not reliable and efficient and hence are not in these time-and-life-critical applications.

You can consult this website.



They are nothing. Tell me, who will be respected - Infosys or QNX ?
You didn't get the point, or pretending you didn't. Infosys and TCS are companies that are for specific purpose and they are very successful in their respective field.

Respect comes when you're successful in your field. Your argument is like expecting Jockey to make suits and Armani to make inner wears.
 
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You didn't get the point, or pretending you didn't. Infosys and TCS are companies that are for specific purpose and they are very successful in their respective field.

Successful in India is also the Royal Enfield company which produces those noisy motorcycles. Successful in India is also some company which manufactures dog clothing.

You remove Infosys and TCS from the industry and the industry will lose nothing. :)
 
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Western civilization is the most innovative because it has innovative culture founded on critical thinking, free inquiry, respect for rights including copyright, safe work environment, equal opportunity laws, cooperation among western nations in business and academics, and other factors.

This practically sums it up. Achieve this and half the battle is won. Unfortunately in the sub continent for the last 70 years we have been doing the exact opposite - being slaves to religion and ethnicity, bending in front of people with (perceived) authority, treating workers simply as raw material, restricting trade amongst each other, 0% collaboration and 100% bombast. Nowhere else on the planet do neighbours behave as stupidly as this.
 
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congratulations BUET on ur team's accompolishments.
no pakistani universities participated in this event ???
That doesn't mean anything. I graduated from a Tier-2 university in India and there were occasions where even my university folks beat teams from IITs in certain competitions since not all teams have highly intellectual members...you need to realize IITs still do have the reservation system and the benchmark for someone from SC, ST or OBC candidate is significantly lower than general category students. Such students also end up participating in these competitions to put something in their resume
castiest bastard.
 
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That doesn't mean anything. I graduated from a Tier-2 university in India and there were occasions where even my university folks beat teams from IITs in certain competitions since not all teams have highly intellectual members...you need to realize IITs still do have the reservation system and the benchmark for someone from SC, ST or OBC candidate is significantly lower than general category students. Such students also end up participating in these competitions to put something in their resume

They did right to ban you. Now what have you as an Upper Caste contributed to humanity ?
 
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When I was younger, in my early 20s, I too lived with the notion that certain communities, ethnic groups, nationalities etc are better at something, while others are good at something else. After 2 decades and some more wisdom, I can conclusively say that it is all a matter of having a head-start, and where you lack head-start, initiative.

Educated, privileged people in all countries are more successful, regardless of their man made classifications. I was born in a Brahmin family in North India and all my growing years I heard that business is for Marwaris / Jains / Aggarwals / Gujaratis and people like me are destined to fail. I did fail, but the reasons had absolutely nothing to do with my caste.

Trashing Indian IT skills is not going to give anyone any head-start and is rather juvenile. People who do not live in India have no idea of how big and thriving this sector is. Stereotyping Indians as lacking in innovation is cliched and if you dislike cliches about yourself, you should desist from tagging others with it. Why is it that inventing only an OS or a search engine qualifies as innovation? Why is good software design not innovation? Why is a high performing app that handles millions of transactions a day not innovation?

In any case if Indians are coolies, BDs and Pakistanis are no Nikola Teslas and Benjamin Franklins either. All of us developing country folks are improving and adapting existing systems for our own markets. We have a large business community and huge populations. For us Enterprise, B2C and B2B software is a no brainer. If your market requires helping farmers get better prices by reaching the customer directly, you don't sit and invent a new OS or search engine. The thousands of riders who deliver meals to doorstep need an intuitive app, in their local language, with good google maps integration. What has this got to do with inventing a super computer or a new jet engine? Innovations could be in process, in distribution and cost efficiencies and quality control too.

Franky this notion of innovation is too outdated and we South Asians continue to undermine our capabilities and treating ourselves as second grade to westerners.

Wah - most sensible post I have heard from anyone at PDF - your attitude deserves Kudos! :cheers:

Thanks.

I take back my bad-mouthing of Bhakt Indians and should do far less of it. It was reactionary behavior against Hindu supremacists and andh-bhakts mostly.

We need more Indians like you, with feet realistically planted firmly in the ground, seeing stuff for what it actually is.

However - in defense of @jamahir bhai, what he was suggesting is that we in the subcontinent are just specializing in merely 9-5 subsistence (buying houses for future generations and squeezing out a few puppies) rather than individual efforts at doing something truly extra-ordinary.

Not trying to second guess or speaking FOR HIM though.

But I realize you can only have those efforts, when the basic minimum requirements of health, hygiene are met.

Like how the West gained improved standards of living (and eventually innovation which followed it) by stealing/looting from less clueful people in the subcontinent (like us).
 
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However - in defense of @jamahir bhai, what he was suggesting is that we in the subcontinent are just specializing in merely 9-5 subsistence (buying houses for future generations and squeezing out a few puppies) rather than individual efforts at doing something truly extra-ordinary.

Well @jamahir is justified on asking in multiple occasions as to why a new "consumer OS" is NOT being developed till now? ... IMHO creating a new "consumer OS" is "might be" NOT that trivial for some as now there are IT Companies in the South East Asia region which have enough resources (Financial and Scientific) to implement the new one... BUT the argument is NOT that simple. For a new "Consumer OS" to compete effectively you need to make sure you have full grasp on the existing and future hardware advancements which your new "consumer OS" will be interacting. You will required to write device drivers of a plethora of hardware out there that would require dedicated support from all existing well established hardware vendors...but why would they entertain someone totally new on the block without any measurable incentive for them...so in extreme case (very unlikely) you will have to develop your own compatible hardware ... Moreover, you will be required to do R&D as the advancement in hardware is progressing really fast and keeping your OS to run effectively on them will definitely a challenge and after a considerable amount of time when your 'consumer OS" established monopoly only then your OS will dictate the hardware vendors to tweak their product to align with the minimum requirements of your OS.

And lastly, even after developing one breaking the monopoly of the existing top ones is very very tough. it is equivalent to initiating a war...
 
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Wah - most sensible post I have heard from anyone at PDF - your attitude deserves Kudos! :cheers:

Thanks.

I take back my bad-mouthing of Bhakt Indians and should do far less of it. It was reactionary behavior against Hindu supremacists and andh-bhakts mostly.

We need more Indians like you, with feet realistically planted firmly in the ground, seeing stuff for what it actually is.

However - in defense of @jamahir bhai, what he was suggesting is that we in the subcontinent are just specializing in merely 9-5 subsistence (buying houses for future generations and squeezing out a few puppies) rather than individual efforts at doing something truly extra-ordinary.

Not trying to second guess or speaking FOR HIM though.

But I realize you can only have those efforts, when the basic minimum requirements of health, hygiene are met.

Like how the West gained improved standards of living by stealing/looting from less clueful people (like us).

Bhakts, like all other people need to be able to take criticism and live with the fact that neither Indians nor Hindus are perfect. No one is.

I wasn't specifically targeting @jamahir, though I did latch on to his examples. I am myself an advocate of continuous improvement, even if one cannot do outright innovation. 9-5 subsistence culture is not unique to Asians though. Many westerners who are now in their middle ages have lived 9-5 jobs. Middle America which voted for Trump's 'make America great again' slogan are mostly 9-5 factory workers types. They differ from south Asians in being more adventurous in their personal lives. They are more outdoorsy and DIY types, which perhaps gives the impression that they are more innovative.
 
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Bhakts, like all other people need to be able to take criticism and live with the fact that neither Indians nor Hindus are perfect. No one is.

I wasn't specifically targeting @jamahir, though I did latch on to his examples. I am myself an advocate of continuous improvement, even if one cannot do outright innovation. 9-5 subsistence culture is not unique to Asians though. Many westerners who are now in their middle ages have lived 9-5 jobs. Middle America which voted for Trump's 'make America great again' slogan are mostly 9-5 factory workers types. They differ from south Asians in being more adventurous in their personal lives. They are more outdoorsy and DIY types, which perhaps gives the impression that they are more innovative.


Aren't East Asians, namely Japan, South Korea, and now, China, the most innovative place on earth? They produce the most patents per capita on earth. And generally score a lot higher in any of the innovation indexes, relative to most major western countries.

Take Britain. It's not in the top 8 I think. But it has this reputation as being a land of innovators. This may have been historically true when she was the only show on the town, as the industrial revolution took off here. And in some areas, like research and scientific output, she is still a force to be reckoned with. However, she scores quite poorly on industrial innovation. That is to say, a lot of the cutting-edge research pumped out by her universities doesn't end up in the industry. Britain scores poorly on industrial innovation as a result

And a huge chunk of that scientific output produced here is by authors/researchers who don't even have a Briitish passport, with names like Huang and Sharma. It's the same case in the US. Anglo Saxons just aren't technically minded these days, other than a very small group.

Remember how the West claimed to hold a monopoly on all things innovation. They still do to an extent. Remember how Japanese cars were ridiculed as cheap knock-offs. If you have time, read the British intelligence report of the Japanese during WW2. They described the Japanese as follows;

"For a combination of genetic and environmental factors, Japanese were regarding as lacking in aptitude for machines, an effective sense of balance, and the capacity for innovation"

Right before they got their arse kicked by the IJN and IJA in Singapore LMFAO. Possibly the most humiliating defeat of a major power in that conflict. Brit's famously overestimated themselves and their equipment and underestimated the Japs. And now, they're doing the same thing with the Chinese.

I find the bit "lacking inaptitude of machines" especially funny. Considering everyone uses top-quality Japanese machine tools to make stuff in their industry. Japanese cars are vastly superior to anything Britain makes, and the world agrees. Britain is full of Japanese products. Japan isn't full of British ones. Because even Britain isn't filled with British products. British industrial base is a wasteland. Japan maintained a world-class industrial base in spite of decades of economic stagnation. Britain can't keep her industries in the best of times. That doesn't happen in REAL innovative countries.

Anglo Saxons are naturally quite confident people, even when they don't know what they're talking about. Asians have more humility and are often too polite for their own good. Therefore, AngloSAxons can come across as more authoritative, and therefore, "innovative" to some people. And the fact that they tend to (on average) go into "creative" fields like the arts, plays into that stereotype.


PS: Cultural stereotypes I know. And many Asians are following that pattern (*ahem* Japan). Getting too comfortable in hubris, overestimating your capabilities, and underestimating others. It's a natural pattern. It's how one civilization overtakes another I guess.
 
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