British and French nuclear submarines collide in Atlantic

[nitesh]

shocking to say at least:


British and French nuclear submarines collide in Atlantic - Telegraph


British and French nuclear submarines collide in Atlantic

HMS Vanguard and Le Triomphant are understood to have both been severely damaged in the underwater accident earlier this month.

Both are fitted with state-of-the-art technology aimed at detecting other submarines, but it apparently failed completely.

Although both France and Britain insist that security was not compromised during the collision and there was no danger of a nuclear incident, inquiries are now under way in both countries.

Each boat is a key part of their respective county's nuclear deterrent, ready to unleash their destructive weapons at a moment's notice.

French Navy sources confirm that Le Triomphant, one of four strategic nuclear submarines of the so-called "Force de Frappe", was returning from a 70 day tour of duty when the incident occurred.

It happened in heavy seas, and in the middle of the night between February 3 and 4, and left Le Triomphant's sonar dome all but destroyed.

The sonar dome should have detected the Vanguard but Le Triomphant's crew of 101 claimed to have "neither saw nor heard anything".

The French tried to play down the collision, with a Navy spokesman saying: "The collision did not result in injuries among the crew and did not jeopardise nuclear security at any moment."

The Ministry of Defence would not even confirm it had taken place. A spokesman said: "It is MoD policy not to comment on submarine operational matters, but we can confirm that the UK's deterrent capability has remained unaffected at all times and there has been no compromise to nuclear safety."

Le Triomphant took at least three days to limp back to her home port, while HMS Vanguard returned to her home base in Faslane, in Scotland.

With a complement of 135 crew, she is the lead boat of the Vanguard class of submarines which carry Trident ballistic missiles around the world.

Le Triomphant is also the lead ship in her own class of Triomphant nuclear submarines.

Each carries 16 M45 ballistic missiles, weighs 35 tons each, carries six warheads and has a range of around 5,000 miles.

France's Atlantic coast is notorious for being a "submarine graveyard" because of the number of underwater craft, mainly German U-boats, sunk in the area during the Second World War.

 

[metalfalcon]

It has Happened many times in the Past as well and Russians Subs were Involved in most of the Underwater Collisions.

Oceans are Truly Mysterious Place, No One here Knows what really Happened there.

How Come they can't detect the other Sub until they collide with each other. There are equipped with state of the Art Technology Right ?

Now we need Traffic Signals Underwater as well.

 

[nitesh]

some more interesting info:

Antisonar technology made nuclear subs undetectable | The Australian


Antisonar technology made nuclear subs undetectable
Charles Bremner and David Brown | February 17, 2009


A BRITISH nuclear submarine collided with a French sub in the Atlantic because sophisticated antisonar equipment made them undetectable to each other, it has been claimed.

The French submarine Le Triomphant remained unaware that it had rammed and damaged HMS Vanguard until days later, when it was informed by the Royal Navy. Both vessels were carrying nuclear ballistic warheads while on secret patrols when they crashed this month.

Official inquiries have started in Britain and France, amid concerns regarding the sharing of military information between the allied navies.

The French Navy claimed this month that the bow sonar dome of Le Triomphant was probably damaged in a collision with a submerged shipping container while returning from patrol. It only discovered that it had hit a British submarine after one of the regular exchanges of information with the Royal Navy.

Nato countries exchange details about the areas and depths in which their submarines will operate during patrols. France has opted out of Nato's military command, however, so does not share detailed information, although it normally provides some data about its submarine operations.

The First Sea Lord, Admiral Sir Jonathon Band, said the collision happened at low speed and none of the 240 crew on board the submarines was injured.

"Two submerged (ballistic nuclear submarines), one French and the other UK, were conducting routine national patrols in the Atlantic Ocean," he said. "Both submarines remained safe and no injuries occurred. We can confirm that the capability remained unaffected and there has been no compromise to nuclear safety."

The collision is understood to have occurred on February 3 or 4. HMS Vanguard returned to its base in Faslane, western Scotland, on Saturday with dents and scrapes on its hull. Le Triomphant took three days to limp home to port in Brest, northwest France, with extensive damage to its Thales DMUX 80 sonar. Repairs to the two vessels are reported to have been estimated at £50 million.

The French Navy confirmed that the collision took place in the Atlantic on a routine patrol and at great depth but would not disclose the location for security reasons.

Captain Jerome Erulin said that such collisions were extremely unlikely but always possible between two submarines that are designed to evade detection.

"It was a brief contact at slow speed," he said. "The slow speed at the moment of the incident is their normal patrol speed. There was no human error."

A Royal Navy source said that the chances of two submarines colliding in the mid-Atlantic were very small. He said that submarines used "water space management" to separate themselves both geographically and in depth from other vessels.

"It is remarkably difficult to detect a modern submarine with sonar and we work very hard with our own submarines, as do our allies, in making them as quiet as possible so they are not detectable."

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, said: "This is a very serious incident. There are procedural issues that need addressing. We should not have submarines of friendly nations operating in the same area at the same time."

HMS Vanguard, which was launched in 1992, is one of four British submarines capable of carrying up to 16 Trident ballistic nuclear missiles with up to eight warheads. At least one of the submarines is on patrol at any time.

The 14,335-tonne Le Triomphant, which entered service in 1997, also carries up to 16 nuclear missiles, with six warheads, and is one of four nuclear-armed submarines in the French fleet.

Vice-Admiral John McAnally, president of the Royal Naval Association, said that it was a "one in a million chance" that the two vessels collided.

He said: "It would be very unusual on deterrent patrol to use active sonar because that would expose the submarine to detection."

Liam Fox, the Shadow Defence Secretary, said that the crash showed the inherent danger of military operations. "For two submarines to collide, apparently unaware of each other's presence, is extremely worrying. Hopefully, lessons have been learnt."

Kate Hudson, from the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, said: "This is a nuclear nightmare of the highest order. The collision of two submarines, both with nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons on board, could have released vast amounts of radiation and scattered scores of nuclear warheads across the seabed."

John Large, an independent nuclear analyst who advised the Russian Government after its Kursk submarine sank in 2000, said that the incident could have been far worse. "The real risk is if you have a fire on board caused by the impact," he said. "Each warhead has about 30kg-50kg of high explosive around it. That would burn and your plutonium core would burn as well. That would disperse into the atmosphere and be a major problem."

The incident is the most serious underwater collision since the USS San Francisco hit an undersea mountain in the Pacific head-on in 2005, killing one sailor and injuring 24 others.

Lee Willett, of the Royal United Services Institute for Defence and Security Studies, said that Britain and France would be very reticent to share information on what their nuclear submarines were up to. "Despite how close these relations are, they are the ultimate tools of national survival in the event of war," he said.

 

[ejaz007]

French, British Nuclear Submarines Collide in Atlantic
Monday, February 16, 2009


LONDON — Nuclear-armed submarines from Britain and France collided in the Atlantic Ocean earlier this month, authorities acknowledged Monday — touching off new concerns about the safety of the world's deep sea missile fleets.

The HMS Vanguard, the oldest of Britain's current nuclear-armed submarine fleet, and the French Le Triomphant submarine, which was also carrying nuclear missiles, both suffered minor damage in the collision. No crew members were reported injured.

Britain's most senior sailor, First Sea Lord, Adm. Jonathon Band, said the underwater crash posed no risk to the safety of the submarines' nuclear reactors and nuclear missiles. But he offered no explanation of how the rare incident might have occurred.

"The two submarines came into contact at very low speed," Band said in a statement. "Both submarines remained safe."

France's defense ministry said the ballistic missile submarines had been carrying out routine patrols when they collided.

"They briefly came into contact at a very low speed while submerged. There were no injuries. Neither their nuclear deterrence missions nor their safety were affected," France's defense ministry said Monday in a statement.

The Vanguard — which is capable of carrying up to 16 nuclear-armed Trident missiles — was towed back to a submarine base in Scotland with visible dents and scrapes, the BBC reported.

The Le Triomphant suffered damaged to a sonar dome in the front of the submarine but returned under its own power to its base on L'Ile Longue on France's western tip, according to the French military.

Neither France nor Britain would confirm the exact date of the collision, but said it took place earlier this month. France issued a brief statement Feb. 6 saying the Le Triomphant had struck "a submerged object" that was probably a shipping container.

Naval experts were amazed by the collision.

"This really shouldn't have happened at all," said Stephen Saunders, a retired British Royal Navy commodore and the editor of Jane's Fighting Ships. "It's a very serious incident, and I find it quite extraordinary."

He said while NATO countries let each other know what general area of the Atlantic they are operating in, neither submarine would have had a precise position for the other.

Saunders said submarines don't always turn on their radar systems or make their presence obvious to other shipping.

"The whole point is to go and hide in a big chunk of ocean and not be found. They tend to go around very slowly and not make much noise," he said.

Lawmakers and disarmament advocates demanded an explanation of how the submarines could have failed to detect each other.

Britain's government "needs to explain how it is possible for a submarine carrying weapons of mass destruction to collide with another submarine carrying weapons of mass destruction in the middle of the world's second-largest ocean," lawmaker Angus Robertson of the opposition Scottish National Party said.

Stephane Lhomme, a spokesman for the French anti-nuclear group Sortir du Nucleaire, said its activists were on alert for any signs of radioactive leaks near French shores.

"This reminds us that we could have a new catastrophe with a nuclear submarine at any moment. It is a risk that exists during missions but also in port," he said. "These are mobile nuclear reactors."

Britain's Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament called on Prime Minister Gordon Brown to end his country's nuclear submarine patrols of the Atlantic.

"This is a nuclear nightmare of the highest order," said Kate Hudson, the group's chair. "The collision of two submarines, both with nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons onboard, could have released vast amounts of radiation and scattered scores of nuclear warheads across the seabed."


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