Bomb Blast in Crowded Daata Darbar (Shrine), Lahore

[sparklingway]

I also liked the way Sir Zafarullah Khan made Zia stand outside and not let him enter his house when he was on his death bed. The scoundrel deserved this treatment.

I didn't know that.

 

[Hyde]

All the Muslims in the UK are educated but you and I know that many of them become more susceptible to this only because of their up bringing. It is not education that matters because we were all fine even with low illiteracy in the pre Zia era but rather its the indoctrination at the hands of these Mullahs we have plenty off.

Also education did not make it much harder to fool people by the names of Faisal Shahzad (MBA), Omar Sheikh (LSE Student), Omar Abdul Farouq (UCL) and so many more.

The cause is the thinking that was altered, nothing else.

you have a very good point Faz,
But we must also not forget there are good and bad apples everywhere. Even a dumbest person sometimes looks very intelligent and the most intelligent person takes wild decision at cruicial times. But we have to see overall stats, i see 90%+ suicide bombers are not well educated. I have seen a lot of interviews of suicide bombers who were captured and later on given interview in the tv (go youtube and you will videos)

and by their attitude you can easily say they are not well educated and rather living in the world of dreams. Yes there was Faisal Shahzad's rare case but we have to see overall stats right?

And education does not only mean 2+2=4. By awaring peoples about the teachings of Islam is also like an education. Like i said in my last post we must appoint some high level of scholars who will roam each and every city of Pakistan and why only Pakistani scholars, some of you may not agree with Zakir Naik but i am sure there will be many of his followers in Pakistan. Bring him from India for a month, call Imam-e-Kaba once again, take some high level of scholars from other arab and african countries. Then take our own scholars. Make a group of thousands of scholars and then have daily speeches in local areas. Take questions and answers sessions and give some rewards to the public. The aim of these events would be to enlighten peoples against the terrorism and i am sure this will bring a lot of positive changes in our country.

Keep all those scholars away who will only want to disunite this Ummah and come up with those scholars who would be willing to give lectures against terrorism.

My opinion only

 

[T-Faz]

I didn't know that.

Read this:

Gen Zia had to face more embarrassment when another historic figure of Pakistan History, Sir Muhammad Zafarullah Khan, the first foreign minister of Pakistan who also holds the distinction to be the only Muslim to officiate as the judge in International Court of Justice, did not allow Gen Zia to enter his residence when he fell ill before eventually passing away. Gen Zia had to wait outside Sir Muhammad Zafarullah Khan's home as he met only with the Governor of Punjab.

Another thing I have been told is that Dr Abdus Salam was livid when he met Zia and the argument that ensued was a sight to see. Zia being the cunning fox that he is was able to cool it off.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Some submissions fro my side:

Democracy is undoubtedly the best political system that exists today once it is practised in a healthy manner. When majority of the population have sympathy toward unhealthy ideology ,the democracy will only become a dictatorship of the majority.

Very valid indeed.

I

n a country where majority is illiterate , a supervision is needed to save the democracy from malpractice.

This argument has been made in my country, India; many times by people of the educated classes ( to which i supposedly belong) questioning why there is universal suffrage. Over the years, i have understood (may be reluctantly) that this argument is fallacious, because illiteracy is steadily declining and the democratic system is steadily maturing. Now India has had the fortune of having uninterrupted Democracy since its inception, barring the Emergency.
Even that aberration was undone by a largely illiterate electorate who threw out a politician who was arguably the most powerful in Indian history; and very unceremoniously at that. All this happened in a (seemingly) flawed democracy.
Illiterate people are not necessarily stupid people. If literacy is the only benchmark of wisdom or awareness, then some of the religious establishment, who are being accused of so much wrong-doing would qualify as very wise people. Would you agree with that surmise?
Pakistan, tragically has had a roller-coaster ride with the democratic process. Therefore democracy has not had a chance to mature. That is all i'll say.

A popular politician does not necessarily bring healthy policy when the electoral pool fail to deliver sound judgement.

Very true indeed. Democracy (even in its most perfect form) does not guarantee perfect or even good politicians. Its the electorate (including the illiterate segment) that carries the duty to accept or soundly reject the politicians it needs. It cannot abdicate this responsibility to any other institution be it the judiciary, the press or the military.
If it does it pays the price for it.
In conclusion, every institution in society has to (and be allowed to) mature equally whether the legislature, judiciary, executive or press.
Otherwise we see the odd phenomenon of somebody trying to do somebody else's job whether legitimately or not.
Just some thoughts.

 

[sparklingway]

you have a very good point Faz,
But we must also not forget there are good and bad apples everywhere. Even a dumbest person sometimes looks very intelligent and the most intelligent person takes wild decision at cruicial times. But we have to see overall stats, i see 90%+ suicide bombers are not well educated. I have seen a lot of interviews of suicide bombers who were captured and later on given interview in the tv (go youtube and you will videos)

and by their attitude you can easily say they are not well educated and rather living in the world of dreams. Yes there was Faisal Shahzad's rare case but we have to see overall stats right?

And education does not only mean 2+2=4. By awaring peoples about the teachings of Islam is also like an education. Like i said in my last post we must appoint some high level of scholars who will roam each and every city of Pakistan and why only Pakistani scholars, some of you may not agree with Zakir Naik but i am sure there will be many of his followers in Pakistan. Bring him from India for a month, call Imam-e-Kaba once again, take some high level of scholars from other arab and african countries. Then take our own scholars. Make a group of thousands of scholars and then have daily speeches in local areas. Take questions and answers sessions and give some rewards to the public. The aim of these events would be to enlighten peoples against the terrorism and i am sure this will bring a lot of positive changes in our country.

Keep all those scholars away who will only want to disunite this Ummah and come up with those scholars who would be willing to give lectures against terrorism.

My opinion only

Make Javed Ahmed Ghamidi the Head of the Council of Islamic Ideology (which he resigned from during the Women's Protection Bill crisis). He fights the orthodoxy and literalism of the fanatic clergy. Give him a bigger mic and he can at least force some rationality into the crowd.

Also, considering Africa and Islam, have you ever wondered why the farther you go from Saudi Arabia, the more peaceful Islam becomes? (Egypt is an exception with deep rooted historical and political reasons)

 

[pak-marine]

yaar we kill 10 peoples and 10 more born again

we need to educate our peoples. We do all efforts except educating the poor public who later on flow in their emotions and do these silly acts.

What our government needs to do is, set up a panel of scholars for example 5000 scholars who will visit in each and every town of Pakistan and teach peoples about the true spirits of Islam and condemn these suicide bomb blasts. Our scholars and our leaders need to go to the public and espacially to the common man and enlighten them about the true Islam rather than sitting in their paradise like houses.

By giving 1-2 lecture will not effect much. We need to raise this issue from the bottom

dont forget faisal shehzad , london bombers , 9/11 bombers etc etc , the more educated the more bigger liability they become. Its nothing to do with education sucide bombers mostly are young impressionable minds who are influenced by these so called scholars. The scholars well i really doubt if we have any scholars at our end? and what scholars will do this these mullahs are the root of evil

 

[DaRk WaVe]

you have a very good point Faz,
But we must also not forget there are good and bad apples everywhere. Even a dumbest person sometimes looks very intelligent and the most intelligent person takes wild decision at cruicial times. But we have to see overall stats, i see 90%+ suicide bombers are not well educated. I have seen a lot of interviews of suicide bombers who were captured and later on given interview in the tv (go youtube and you will videos)

agreed to some extent but you really cannot deny how sane,educated people are falling in the trap of Islamists, WHY is that? What made a person living a peaceful life go bonkers for the 72 Virgin Package?

-Faisal Shahzad’s Radicalisation

even here on PDF there are educated people who justify the acts of holiness

And education does not only mean 2+2=4. By awaring peoples about the teachings of Islam is also like an education. Like i said in my last post we must appoint some high level of scholars who will roam each and every city of Pakistan and why only Pakistani scholars, some of you may not agree with Zakir Naik but i am sure there will be many of his followers in Pakistan. Bring him from India for a month, call Imam-e-Kaba once again, take some high level of scholars from other arab and african countries. Then take our own scholars. Make a group of thousands of scholars and then have daily speeches in local areas. Take questions and answers sessions and give some rewards to the public. The aim of these events would be to enlighten peoples against the terrorism and i am sure this will bring a lot of positive changes in our country.

Imam-e-Kaba? Reminds me of Lal Masjid, He said that people of Lal Masjid are wrong yet the Maulana Aunty & his idiots(arrrr i used 'male' word for that pseudo F-tard) were unmoved, you can do nothing about these people, they are all convinced about that they will get 72 Virgins...

as for general public without a doubt general public is carried away because of its religious sentiments e.g. Muslims cannot attack a Mosque, its gotta be RAW/CIA/Mossad &

thats where the real problem is people must be brought out of Zia Era mindset that forces them to see everything from lens of religion & induces hypocrisy into them, How that will happen? Thats going to take time because i can see that most of the people still are in denial mode

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Can someone point out : How did the bombers sneak in?

I mean, obviously such places would have the usual screening mechanism in place. I can understand, one guy sneaking in with his vest. But three guys getting past screening mechanism is not possible. Did this guy jump across the fence or blast their way into the Shrine?

CCTV footage is released.. the guy was follwed by the guard but he managed to detonate before getting in

they have the detonation cords in their hands and can explode even at the entrance causing same amount of carnage

there is no system to sense and stop the person from miles

 

[T-Faz]

Abu Zulfiqar posted this in another thread.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ten Arrested for Attacks on Ahmedis in Lahore​

*Police have recovered at least 20,000 kg of explosives, 100 Kalashnikovs and 18 suicide jackets from different areas of Lahore*​

LAHORE: At least 10 people, including two masterminds, allegedly involved in attack on the Garhi Shahu worship place of Ahmedi community have been arrested on Friday by Lahore police along with a huge cache of arms and ammunitions.

Police claimed to have recovered at least 20,000 kg of explosives, 100 Kalashnikovs and 18 suicide jackets from different areas of the city.

According to sources, the two masterminds had gone to the North Waziristan's Datta Khel area and one of them holds a diploma in engineering.

DAWN.COM | Metropolitan | Ten arrested for attacks on Ahmedis in Lahore

 

[sparklingway]

The following is not targeted at anyone specifically, but at a wider audience:-

Even the most rational speeches I read can't do away with the "Caliphate", "Islamic State" and "ummah", labels. For once and all decide whether the concept of a nation-state is acceptable, an intermediary step or completely unacceptable with your religious beliefs.

If you believe that a nation-state is an acceptable political entity within Islam (considering whether you belief that Islam has a mandated political role), then stop stating khilafat and put an end to the pan-islamic wet dreams.

If you believe that a nation-state is not a permissible entity in Islam, then I propose starting an all out political movement rather than accepting the state and its power.

If you consider it to be an intermediary step towards your goal of a pan-islamic mythical caliphate, then at least express these views openly. Don't be a hypocrite and hide behind patriotism and hold onto something of a fusion between nation-state and caliphate dreams.

Most of the indoctrinated delusionals are in fact hypocrites.

Maulana Maududi has to be the biggest of all. Before independence he stated that a nation-state was a haram concept within Islamic beliefs.Objectivity demands giving everybody his due right. I have to give credit to him for interpreting these beliefs from religious text and openly stating them.

In front of the Munir Commission in 1954, he alongwith 22 other "notable scholars" said openly that the concept of a nation-state, at least in its strictest form of adherence of patriotism and identity to the nation and rule through polity was alien to Islam and unacceptable within religious beliefs.

Yet, Maududi took refuge in the label of patriotism. The JI, and all other Islamic parties try to hurriedly mention caliphate as the ultimate goal, clearly and openly accept the notion of the nation-state and want to turn it into an "Islamic State". The concept of an "Islamic State" is an alien one in the ideology that they have inherited.

The criticism is not singular to JI or Maududi, rather one that is targeted at every "Islamic State" proponent.

The fiercest of the delusionals, the Hizb ut Tehrir, also wants to seek an intermediary "Islamic Caliphate" in Pakistan. The concept of a nation-state Pakistan itself is unacceptable in their dogmas, yet they want to impose an interpreted version of a theocratic dictatorship here.

It is therefore my humble request to all "ummah", "Islamic State" and "Khilafat" proponents to come out and openly state whether they consider the concept of a nation-state to be unacceptable or not or whether they see it as an intermediary step?

Do not post your answer here or initiate a discussion on this topic in this or any other thread, just decide for yourself.

 

[DaRk WaVe]

State of Denial And Apologetic Defense Continues……​

The horrific details of the attacks on the Sufi shrine of Hazrat Ali Hajvery (also known as Data Gunj Baksh) are beginning to settle in. Terrorist have now struck in the middle of the monument of a tolerant mystic version of Islam. As expected the condemnation is widespread but as usual accusation is misplaced. While going through various websites, I came to know (without surprise of course) that the Pakistani public was generally pointing fingers at the “usual suspect”: United States of America. In fact Yahoo News had made it one of its main page stories that Pakistanis were blaming USA for the attacks at the holy shrine of Hazrat Ali Hajvery.

An interesting development was that Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) was quick to deny that it was behind it. Some of the Pakistanis are actually using that denial as a proof that foreign powers are behind this blast. The irony is that the same public which is ready to believe the current denial of TTP does not believe when the same TTP claims responsibility!!!! Its really ironic that when TTP claims responsibility for every blast, we think it is a grand conspiracy and when it denies involvement, we are ready to believe!!

No matter what kind of evidence is presented , our public’s response always end up being broadly under either of the two categories: outright denial according to which it is a grand conspiracy of the West; and apologetic defense where the attacks are construed as the reaction of USA’s presence in Afghanistan and its other atrocities. While the later response is less absurd but is equally dangerous as it creates a soft corner for the monsters instead of much needed revulsion. And furthermore it makes it even more difficult to understand how literal Wahabi version of Islam is creating havoc with our faith.

Both the responses are slightly variant outcomes of the same mindset. One has to just have a critical approach to bring out the absurdities in both the largely held point of views.

First let’s take conspiracy theories. Muslim world in general and the Pakistan’s educated public in particular, truly excel in the art of coming up with amazingly complex conspiracy theories. According to these conspiracy theories everything in Pakistan, particularly disruptive things, are planned in Washington and with active consultation of Israel and India. The theories display amazing combination of permanence and progressiveness. Permanence is shown in the eventual blame which keeps affixed on USA and progressiveness is in the interpretation of changing facts and ground realities where it is amended in fantastic ways to reach the same conclusion. . Consider this: In 1990s the entire public and media were praising Taliban. When Clinton attacked Osama’s bases through cruise missiles in late 1990s, Nawaz Sharif almost lost his government and had to bring “shariah” laws to survive. At that point Taliban were heroes and robin hoods which had defied the “imperialist” USA. Then 9/11 happened. All the media was busy absolving Osama of terrorism and I remember the title of a lead English weekly magazine” Guilty unless proved Innocent”. Then Osama on video accepted responsibility and suddenly the very same media started branding him an agent of USA. After 9/11 whatever happened whether in Pakistan (multiple suicide attacks and Benazir’s assassination), India (Mumbai bomb blasts and attacks in November 2008) and UK (7/7 attacks), was interpreted as US conspiracy to blame Taliban and Pakistan with the eventual aim to take control of nuclear arsenal. In the past we have just kept on changing spins to be consistent with our preconceived conclusion. Just a chronological arrangement, such as above, is enough to show how absurd these theories are!

But what may be the reason for this? The reasons in my opinion are manifold and some are imbedded in our cognitive framework while rest are the outcome of international events and the actual behaviour of foreign players.

First of all, conspiracy theories appeal to our fundamental and deeply held conviction that a Muslim cannot do anything which would bring a bad name to Islam and lead to adverse consequences to the Muslim community. Moreover, apparently the more fundamentalist you are in your appearance, harder it is for the public to actually believe that you are capable of these actions. This may explain why it was difficult for the public to believe that Taliban were behind anything and all was US propaganda. And it also makes sense as to why they are now interpreted as “agents” or bifurcated between “good” and “bad” Taliban once it has become clear bombers are indeed Muslims. Now according to our media “experts” there are some bad Taliban who have been bought over by Western powers and they are very different from “good” Taliban such as Mullah Omar.

Secondly, we always link consequences with origination. Since terrorism “benefits” West because it defames Islam and gives them a justification to retaliate, therefore in our logic it must have been solely planned by them. In our country, the nuclear issue is extremely sensitive and somehow or the other assumed a central place due to our inherent insecurities and also crisis of identity. Moreover, the nuclear arsenal is perhaps the only thing which actually elevates Pakistan to at least a factor to reckon with at the global stage. It’s no wonder that every terrorist activity is then conveniently linked with the global conspiracy to destabilize Pakistan with the ultimate objective of taking hold of nuclear arsenal. Now there is merit in this thought that Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal would always be giving the US and the West sleepless nights but to give these amazing spins that al-Qaeda is planted by USA and suicide attacks are planned and carried by USA alone is really mind boggling and moreover self contradictory. Because if Al-Qaeda and Taliban are indeed planted then military action in FATA would actually eliminate these agents and deprive US of the justification to take military action to neutralize the nuclear assets.

Thirdly, the conspiracy theories also owe their existence (though not the extent of their weirdness) to foreign powers’ actual way of dealing which has always been oppressive and suspicious. The flimsy case of war in Iraq has merely strengthened and worst still apparently provided some sellable legitimacy to the conspiracy theorists. Whenever there is any question to authenticity to fantastic theories, the Iraq war and US general way of handling crisis is cited as justification. As a result self contradictory theories which brand militants as US agents and yet resist government crackdown by labelling it as US war, find acceptability in the public.

Now regarding the second and increasingly widely held point of view that terrorism is merely a result of American presence. I will ask simple questions here. If tomorrow USA leaves Afghanistan will this extremism stop? Secondly, if everything is just a reaction, what will explain the Punjabi Taliban? After all we can link Afghan and Tribal area Taliban with this “revenge” approach but what about the variety which has been creating havoc in Lahore. In fact after continuous denial, finally the Punjab Government is partially admitting that they have a local version of the monsters.

Now if you think that if drone attacks kill people in tribal areas and as a reaction some fanatics in Punjab are getting aggrieved and blowing themselves in Holy Shrines, then clearly there is some logical fallacy in your thinking pattern. Moreover, even if one believes this “reaction” theory, is the killing of innocent MUSLIMS justified? Why are we so naïve that we cannot see this obvious truth? Why we are ready to condemn drone attacks which are much more targeted and totally unable to condemn when far more people are killed by monsters like Taliban?

Unless and until we are able to condemn the monsters we will never be able to win this war against extremism. We need to feel revulsion against them and we will only feel it when we start looking more critically at things. Any society has to indulge into an honest intellectual discourse at the time of crisis. Unfortunately, we as a nation not only resist it, but are completely blinded to our own faults. Unless and until we indulge in serious self introspection, we will continue to fall into this mayhem. We need to encourage tolerance and intellectual openness, without which there will be no room for a pluralistic culture and a milder version of our great religion.

State of Denial And Apologetic Defense Continues?? Pak Tea House

 

[Hyde]

Abu Zulfiqar posted this in another thread.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ten Arrested for Attacks on Ahmedis in Lahore​

*Police have recovered at least 20,000 kg of explosives, 100 Kalashnikovs and 18 suicide jackets from different areas of Lahore*​

DAWN.COM | Metropolitan | Ten arrested for attacks on Ahmedis in Lahore

like i said before,

In order to implement Quaid's ideology, you need education in worldy affairs Religion is not what matters

In order to stop these attacks, we need to promote education in religious affairs and teach them the right way of Islam.

These are two different issues. If we want to control these suicide attacks, we need to promote awareness among the common peoples in the light of Islam. Worldly education is not manadatory here although can be considered as a bonus point

 

[v9s]

muslims will not attack women & children, yet they do it,Muslims cannot attack Mosques, yet they do it,Muslims are very Tolerant, yet they want to kill any one who goes against their beliefs & so on


When are you people going to come out of that this particular mentality that a Muslim is the most innocent self righteous pious person on the face of the planet? When the fact is that all the handlers & executors of these acts of holiness are Muslims

I am yet to know about a Jew or a Christian who blew himself in other's holy places? WHY always its the Muslims who are ready to kill & die? There is certainly something wrong with the very foundations of the system that stands on the pillars of self righteous & superiority syndrome

These terrorists may call themselves muslims but Islam doesn't advocate such acts.

You seem to be forgetting that most terrorists come from poor 3rd world backgrounds. Places with illiterate masses are the perfect breeding grounds for terrorist ideals. Corrupt mullahs take advantage of this fact and twist and manipulate verses and facts to brainwash young uneducated minds into committing these acts of terror.
You won't see many christian or jew terrorists because most christians and jews live in areas where the education level is high. These educated and well versed people tend to use logic and rational thought when they are faced with a similar dilemma as explained above and say "Hey, my religion doesn't advocate such barbaric acts for any reason" and subsequently come to a logical conclusion that any person asking them to commit terrorist acts is a liar and a loony and thus ignore them.


Besides, a majority of the muslim population is ignorant about something as important their own religion. They tend to blindly follow the words of their religious "scholars" (who deem themselves to be the authority on Islam) or the words of their parents rather than bothering to research or discuss their own beliefs rationally or logically.

 

[T-Faz]

Read the Munir Report here, you will realize who the enemy of Pakistan was then and is now.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5514951/report_1953.pdf

 

[DaRk WaVe]

These terrorists may call themselves muslims but Islam doesn't advocate such acts.
-------------------------------------------------------------

ohh my dear v9s, You have taken my post out of context, I was just replying to the myth that 'Muslims cannot attack Mosques', just turn the page & read the article

I am really in no mood to go into a stupid theological debate regarding a coded book that can't be decoded by a common man but here is your answer.......
don't go on the tag, just listen

[video=google;1296126090432829344]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1296126090432829344[/video]

POST EDITED