''Blinders'' Played Crucial Role in PAF Assault

[pzfz]

I would prefer that we do not discuss anything about the EW of this event. This is to protect vital information.

the farhan virks and zaid hamids of pdf need to shut their trap. like yesterday.

 

[NA71]

Indians gave reaction from every possible base , remember once during ops in a very small pocket there were 25 AC’s .
Abhinandhan’s wingman is not anymore
The biggest mistake of abhinandhan was not to follow Controller’s direction who asked him to turn left but abhinandhan listened to su30 who said to him turn right it was a perfect text book kill for paf
And the Su30 kill was last in encounter during op

Brother @Tps43 please also elaborate on how they managed to hide SU wreckage in no time? It must have been approached by the wild mob but no photo/clip.

 

[pzfz]

I think the reason why ISPR said that no F16s were used was bcuz only JF17s were used to carry out strikes with H2/H4. F16s and other assets must've been on high alert and patrolling in case if IAF jets respond to Pak's strikes, which they did and then were shot down.

So in short F16s werent used in the strike mission but when IAF gave chase, F16s were used to shoot them down. That's just my opinion based on all the news that has come out so far.

You'd be correct. No F-16s were used in the strikes in IoK.

the isreali jamming pods worked on the F16s AIM120C AAM causing it to miss the target so it killed the mi17. the target couldn't dodge the SD10A though.

that's the dumbest thing i've read re this episode.

 

[SQ8]

I would prefer that we do not discuss anything about the EW of this event. This is to protect vital information.

Frankly no one knows it beyond speculative concepts based on public knowledge (DA-20, AIDEWS)

 

[Slides]

Brother @Tps43 please also elaborate on how they managed to hide SU wreckage in no time? It must have been approached by the wild mob but no photo/clip.

Speculation: It crashed landed back in their base after sustaining damage.

 

[SQ8]

What does that prove?
Show me a link to official PAF statement stating Wg Cdr. Nauman ALi was involved in the air battles or he shot down any plane? Air chief could be congratulating him for a 1000 different reasons.
Indians are just clutching at straws

I think its a case of an Indian story that ran here and then got more boost there.
We only “know” of one pilot.

 

[Cookie Monster]

My quick analysis of the 27th and I could be very wrong since I have pieced this via multiple sources and other ideas here:

JF-17s are not capable of deploying the raptors as it is a datalinked system needing course correction via a dedicated WSO @denel

15sq carried out the strikes with JF-17 escorting them and striking(presumed) across the border. F-16s provided both High and low altitude BARCAP(Barrier Combat Air Patrol) on our side with DA-20 support embedded. The idea being that once the guidance ships for the Raptor crossed in along with their escorts- the F-16s would act “defensively” to prevent Indian interceptors from engaging this flight and from breaching the LoC.

Indian AEW was completing the patrol( for some reason the Phalcons are either having servicibility issues or their local DRDO AEW is performing their primary duties) but their AEW asset was exiting its patrol racetrack circuit.

The Indians detected the strike only after it crossed the LoC and vectored their CAPs of SU-30s at us while scrambling the Migs at Srinagar since they were on Alert status- Su-30s do not have infrastructure to be forward deployed yet and unsuitable for interceptions at this point. Mig-29s are based towards central Punjab .
Indian coverage still showed them the strike package and higher BARCAP so they positioned their Su-30s accordingly and tried to focus on launching volleys of BVRs to put the higher BARCAP F-16s defensive while others would hunt the strike force.
As they approached the DA-20 and the ALQ-211 went alive and prevented them from getting a lock. Low level F-16s zoom climbed as well and soon the Flankers are facing BVR volleys instead of delivering them. One radar signature is reported to have disappeared from both the Erieye and F-16 sensors and hence presumed to have be shot down. Whether it was a kill or not and type depends upon wreckage or otherwise.

Concurrently, The Migs too were in the air, but as they were being vectored towards a target under jamming they encountered both F-16s rushing towards them from our side sending an AMRAAM while a JF-17 embedeed escort also engaged.

WC Abhinandan is chasing the target given to him by GCI before his comms are compromised but his wingman bugs out? (Did the wingman abandon his leader or was unaware that the flight lead has not heard the warnings)

By the time the Su-30s regroup(probably in stress and out of fuel- they do not fly with full fuel since full jets are actually terrible at maneuvering that well) and return.
No further interceptors are scrambled until PAF assets return which points to IAF GCI wanted to preserve assets from facing outnumbered odds or not having suitable replacements available.

@Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @araz @Tps43
@Windjammer

Excellent detailed analysis.

Ocscar.. not correct on the Raptor. There are two modes. One is course correction via a frequency hopping secure link but the other is self guided fire and forget. Both can be done - the later is no brainer with JF-17; first will need inclusion of secure datalink/freq hoppers on jf-17.

Since this was a planned strike with the full expectation of IAF engaging PAF aircrafts, there's no way that PAF AWACS weren't in the sky...in which case couldn't the Raptor be guided by the AWACS with course correction for better precision? I assume AWACS would have the ability to datalink(with the ability to vary frequencies).

Now for the off topic but still related discussion...

One of the key things here is that it was a concerted effort of various PAF assets...obviously the F16s and JF17s were involved...but the crucial support of AWACS and EW assets was also just as important for the success of this mission and the resulting engagement.
Since Pak recently(relatively speaking) acquired AWACs...should Pak now be looking to acquire more EW aircrafts? The Falcons were acquired a while back and I think there are only 2 that serve in EW role. Im not saying that they are outdated in terms of capabilities...my main concern is that there are too few in numbers.
IMO PAF should evaluate the Turkish HAVA SOJ, where they will be using bombardier global 6000 aircraft. This can then pave the way for Pak to acquire globaleye AWAC in the future, which also uses the same bombardier global 6000.

 

[Windjammer]

My quick analysis of the 27th and I could be very wrong since I have pieced this via multiple sources and other ideas here:

JF-17s are not capable of deploying the raptors as it is a datalinked system needing course correction via a dedicated WSO @denel

15sq carried out the strikes with JF-17 escorting them and striking(presumed) across the border. F-16s provided both High and low altitude BARCAP(Barrier Combat Air Patrol) on our side with DA-20 support embedded. The idea being that once the guidance ships for the Raptor crossed in along with their escorts- the F-16s would act “defensively” to prevent Indian interceptors from engaging this flight and from breaching the LoC.

Indian AEW was completing the patrol( for some reason the Phalcons are either having servicibility issues or their local DRDO AEW is performing their primary duties) but their AEW asset was exiting its patrol racetrack circuit.

The Indians detected the strike only after it crossed the LoC and vectored their CAPs of SU-30s at us while scrambling the Migs at Srinagar since they were on Alert status- Su-30s do not have infrastructure to be forward deployed yet and unsuitable for interceptions at this point. Mig-29s are based towards central Punjab .
Indian coverage still showed them the strike package and higher BARCAP so they positioned their Su-30s accordingly and tried to focus on launching volleys of BVRs to put the higher BARCAP F-16s defensive while others would hunt the strike force.
As they approached the DA-20 and the ALQ-211 went alive and prevented them from getting a lock. Low level F-16s zoom climbed as well and soon the Flankers are facing BVR volleys instead of delivering them. One radar signature is reported to have disappeared from both the Erieye and F-16 sensors and hence presumed to have be shot down. Whether it was a kill or not and type depends upon wreckage or otherwise.

Concurrently, The Migs too were in the air, but as they were being vectored towards a target under jamming they encountered both F-16s rushing towards them from our side sending an AMRAAM while a JF-17 embedeed escort also engaged.

WC Abhinandan is chasing the target given to him by GCI before his comms are compromised but his wingman bugs out? (Did the wingman abandon his leader or was unaware that the flight lead has not heard the warnings)

By the time the Su-30s regroup(probably in stress and out of fuel- they do not fly with full fuel since full jets are actually terrible at maneuvering that well) and return.
No further interceptors are scrambled until PAF assets return which points to IAF GCI wanted to preserve assets from facing outnumbered odds or not having suitable replacements available.

@Knuckles @Bilal Khan 777 @Bilal Khan (Quwa) @Dazzler @araz @Tps43
@Windjammer

The Indians were utterly surprised and unprepared to catch us in broad daylight. They had exhausted themselves Capping at night and let their guard down at daybreak. As to the downing of their aircraft, I think their radars were overwhelmed by our large package and by our very effective jamming. Heard from various sources that despite repeated calls from the ground controller to turn back, Mr Moustache never complied as he never heard them.
And post PAF action, the IAF stopped using SU-30s to do CAPs near the LOC....out ranged and out gunned by our BVRs,

 

[Khan Kore]

PAF No 24 Squadron equipped with Dassault Falcon DA 20 EWF aircraft , reportedly played a crucial role in PAF's strikes on Indian targets last month.
The citation reads.

On Feb 27th 2019, PAF struck Indian targets in IoK in response to their aggression across Pakistan's AJK. PAF strike package included Mirage Vs, F-16s, JF-17s, AWACS and Falcon ELINT aircrafts. It is widely believed that Falcon ECM played a pivotal role in denying missile locks from SU-30MKI and MiG-21 Bisons on PAF air assets and gave PAF striking capability on them. It rendered superior SU-30MKI and MiG-21 Bars and Elta radars respectively, useless, and hence their wreckage was found lying from West towards East having been shot down by SD-10S and AIM-120C5 from PAF aircrafts.

Fighting is the art of putting your best assets at the right place and the right time. This is what happened on the 27th.

 

[denel]

Excellent detailed analysis.

Since this was a planned strike with the full expectation of IAF engaging PAF aircrafts, there's no way that PAF AWACS weren't in the sky...in which case couldn't the Raptor be guided by the AWACS with course correction for better precision? I assume AWACS would have the ability to datalink(with the ability to vary frequencies).

Now for the off topic but still related discussion...

One of the key things here is that it was a concerted effort of various PAF assets...obviously the F16s and JF17s were involved...but the crucial support of AWACS and EW assets was also just as important for the success of this mission and the resulting engagement.
Since Pak recently(relatively speaking) acquired AWACs...should Pak now be looking to acquire more EW aircrafts? The Falcons were acquired a while back and I think there are only 2 that serve in EW role. Im not saying that they are outdated in terms of capabilities...my main concern is that there are too few in numbers.
IMO PAF should evaluate the Turkish HAVA SOJ, where they will be using bombardier global 6000 aircraft. This can then pave the way for Pak to acquire globaleye AWAC in the future, which also uses the same bombardier global 6000.

No, one good feature is the ability for it to know where it starts off then be able to go to target; no data link is needed in offline mode. course correction implies you are loitering closer to the target which is high risk. in this case the targets were known well ahead.

i believe i have said enough and no more information will be said.

 

[maverick1977]

No pics of ECM PODs or ECM control system?

 

[Maarkhoor]

No pics of ECM PODs or ECM control system?

classified...only one picture available of one of them named Iqbal.

 

[TOPGUN]

It is an OLD platform both by age and capability. PAF needs to replace this as it wont have many useful years left.

This old platform is one of the reasons the mission went so well, plus these birds get upgrades from time to time always be thankful in any case they are not going anywhere they can still soldier on for years to come.

 

[Zulfiqar]

No pics of ECM PODs or ECM control system?

Probably that black thing beneath the main body among other black and white things.

 

[The Eagle]

info I can gather from Indian media

You might know how they lie to the teeth.. There is no need to believe in it as such.

In my opinion the wing man of Abhinandan was the first casulity of war as soon as he was wheels up with a BVR kill by Noman Ali and Hassan Saddiqui took out Abhinandan over Kotli with WVR. MI-17 got hit by a Pakistani BVR as well. Budgam had 2 crashes.

First Kill or second, confirmed when they crossed LoC... not at the time of take-off.... Last BVR salvo was for the big birds daring to come in but got the beating. Out ranged. A wingman can't be down in Sri-Nagar (MIG deployment area) while Abhi made it to Kotli.