Blasphemy Laws: Minorities to launch campaign

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so what did Chogy say that was indecent?

The language used in the example about Jesus AS was uncalled for

 

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But Chogy makes an exacting point by using such harsh language.

Would you have not reacted like me if the same words were used about someone dear to you ?....... Would you have tolerated such point making harsh language no matter how good the intentions ?

 

[VCheng]

Would you have not reacted like me if the same words were used about someone dear to you ?....... Would you have tolerated such point making harsh language no matter how good the intentions ?

No, I would NOT have responded like you AT ALL.

Yes, I would tolerate any harsh language, just like Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) did, in his time.

 

[B-man.]

whosoever has a problem with that can move to the land where he can do this openly.

What a ridiculous thing to say. I am sure there are many Pakistani Laws you disagree with, does this mean that your only option should be to leave? Would you not try to reform or protest unfavourable laws?

At least Muslim lands are not going to do that ever!

What about Turkey or Bangladesh? Neither of these Muslim countries have a blasphemy law.

 

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No, I would NOT have responded like you AT ALL.

Yes, I would tolerate any harsh language, just like Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) did, in his time.

Prophet Mohammad SAW did confront his opponents verbally many times when the occasion called for it.

So I assume you will keep quiet when some one abuses your loved ones, so that the offender can exercise his freedom of speech and dare you tread on his rights ?

 

[VCheng]

Prophet Mohammad SAW did confront his opponents verbally many times when the occasion called for it.

So I assume you will keep quiet when some one abuses your loved ones, so that the offender can exercise his freedom of speech and dare you tread on his rights ?

You may assume whatever you wish, that is not my problem.

 

[Chogy]

Gentlemen... I used the harsh language as an illustration. I truly apologize if I offended anybody, but my entire point was that laws that punish or kill for opinion are outrageous. I am the first to bash the slightest hint of censorship in the U.S.

At the same time, civility is important. I will never insult Muhammed, because this hurts people; it is simply crude.

It is rude to insult peoples' revered spiritual figures. For what it's worth, I am a devout Christian, and I don't believe for a moment in what I wrote. At the same time, let's agree that the Christian and Muslim views of Jesus are entirely different. I don't agree with the Muslim view of Jesus, and in fact, such a view by a person within our Church would result in his expulsion... meaning he isn't a member any more.

But we will not beat him, kill him, and by law, cannot discriminate against him. VERY important.

Dear Tariq,

Chogy, any muslim who believes in isalm and Prophet Mohammad is the last prophet would love this law. May be u dont know if i don't accept moses jacob, jesus or any other prophets as prophet will not be a muslims ( believe in the prophethood of the earlier prophets is must for a muslim).

I understand but do not agree with your sentiment. More importantly, I resoundingly believe that if Jesus himself were standing on this Earth today, he would absolutely condemn a law that makes insulting Him a crime. Jesus came to Earth knowing full well he would be abused and insulted. That is the Christian view, at least.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Muslims and Christians have two different views on Jesus. Muslims do indeed respect Jesus (Peace be Upon Him) the same way they respect all the Prophets.

 

[VCheng]

Gentlemen... I used the harsh language as an illustration. I truly apologize if I offended anybody, but my entire point was that laws that punish or kill for opinion are outrageous. I am the first to bash the slightest hint of censorship in the U.S.

At the same time, civility is important. I will never insult Muhammed, because this hurts people; it is simply crude.

It is rude to insult peoples' revered spiritual figures. For what it's worth, I am a devout Christian, and I don't believe for a moment in what I wrote. At the same time, let's agree that the Christian and Muslim views of Jesus are entirely different. I don't agree with the Muslim view of Jesus, and in fact, such a view by a person within our Church would result in his expulsion... meaning he isn't a member any more.

But we will not beat him, kill him, and by law, cannot discriminate against him. VERY important.

Dear Tariq,



I understand but do not agree with your sentiment. More importantly, I resoundingly believe that if Jesus himself were standing on this Earth today, he would absolutely condemn a law that makes insulting Him a crime. Jesus came to Earth knowing full well he would be abused and insulted. That is the Christian view, at least.

..... and THAT is the MOST important and RELEVANT phrase to this thread.

 

[*Awan*]

So, if I see a person killing another, means he is punishable for death, does that gives ME right to kill him? will I be called a Killer or the helping hand of judiciary?



This is what I have said before, but can you raise voice for its amendment?
Lolz, as a natural reaction I may break his jaw, or may be I remain calm by thinking that 'if he is saying something wrong about my mother, it is his own doing, why should I be angry for that'.




Sorah Lahab:
I dont find anything that he must be killed.


So at least we are in agreement that 'killing' is not the solution, neither it is permitted through Quran.



So the same 'wrong' people are biggest supporters for this law. We need to understand that 295 C is a man made law, that was introduced to avoid blasphemous statements against Rasool e Akram (S.A.W.), that is not an 'Aayaah' which cannot be amended or abolished. Where there is an established fact that the same law has been used to settle the personal scores. Have you gone through the process of punishment under this law. Do you know the Case of Asia bibi? for whom Salman Taseer got killed. We have numerous cases where this law has been wrongly used.

Full Surahe lahab.
Translation.
May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.
His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained.
He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame
And his wife [as well] – the carrier of firewood.
Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber. [Surah Lahab, verses 1-5]

in islam quran and hadith both are important.for example quran order you for salah but you find the method from hadith.similarly for better and detail explanation of blasphemy check hadith.
read the post of Xestan,post no 200.i think after reading this post there is no need of further argument.

 

[VCheng]

Full Surahe lahab.
Translation.
May the hands of Abu Lahab be ruined, and ruined is he.
His wealth will not avail him or that which he gained.
He will [enter to] burn in a Fire of [blazing] flame
And his wife [as well] – the carrier of firewood.
Around her neck is a rope of [twisted] fiber. [Surah Lahab, verses 1-5]

in islam quran and hadith both are important.for example quran order you for salah but you find the method from hadith.similarly for better and detail explanation of blasphemy check hadith.
read the post of Xestan,post no 200.i think after reading this post there is no need of further argument.

CORRECTION:

"i think after reading this post there is no need of further argument......" ........ but others may have a different opinion and have the same rights to voice their thought, just like I do, and can argue about anything all they want!

Now your post is complete, in my opinion.

 

[*Awan*]

"Today, the U.S. passed HR 4765 which penalizes anyone who mocks or disrespects Jesus, with death."

Such a law would make people's heads explode.

why this will explode people heads?what exactly is wrong in this law?

Yet it's OK to have a similar law in Pakistan?

yap.
your laws for you and our laws for us.

I am a huge advocate of the peaceful pursuit of one's religion... or no religion at all. If an atheist says "Jesus was the bastard child of a Roman Centurion" then that is his opinion, and I don't get to kill him.

in secularism religion is personal matter.live and let live. true?
then why barking at someone who passed 1400 years ago.and in this case jesus.
you should at least avoid this type of wording in your post.
remember if someone deny the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (saw) then this thing does not make him blasphemer but wording of type in your post.

 

[*Awan*]

CORRECTION:

"i think after reading this post there is no need of further argument......" ........ but others may have a different opinion and have the same rights to voice their thought, just like I do, and can argue about anything all they want!

Now your post is complete, in my opinion.

there is flaw in your approach.
in religious matters we can't give our opinion when rules are already present in Quran and hadith.

 

[*Awan*]

And if the west inacted such laws? The practice or proffesion of anything other than christianity punishable by crucifixion? How would all the supporters of these laws feel in that case? Our right?

first of all punish those people who call your god bas.....

 

[*Awan*]

People who think that Blasphemy law is man-made should research in Hadith Books..

Six most authentic books of Hadith for the Muslims have numerous Hadiths which states the punishment for the Blasphemy against Prophet [S.A.W].

And this not just apply on Islamic Prophet Muhammed [S.A.W], but all the Prophets that have a place in Islam..

PUNISHMENT for Blasphemy in Islam.

The answer to this question may be given by addressing the two following issues:

1 – The ruling on one who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)

The scholars are unanimously agreed that a Muslim who insults the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) becomes a kaafir and an apostate who is to be executed. This consensus was narrated by more than one of the scholars, such as Imaam Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh, Ibn al-Mundhir, al-Qaadi ‘Iyaad, al-Khattaabi and others. Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/13-16

This ruling is indicated by the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

In the Qur’aan it says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The hypocrites fear lest a Soorah (chapter of the Qur’aan) should be revealed about them, showing them what is in their hearts. Say: ‘(Go ahead and) mock! But certainly Allaah will bring to light all that you fear.’

If you ask them (about this), they declare: ‘We were only talking idly and joking.’ Say: ‘Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?’

Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed”

[al-Tawbah 9:64-66]

This verse clearly states that mocking Allaah, His verses and His Messenger constitutes kufr, so that applies even more so to insulting. The verse also indicates that whoever belittles the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is also a kaafir, whether he was serious or joking.

With regard to the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (4362) narrated from ‘Ali that a Jewish woman used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him, so a man strangled her until she died, and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) ruled that no blood money was due in this case.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Saarim al-Maslool (1/162): This hadeeth is jayyid, and there is a corroborating report in the hadeeth of Ibn ‘Abbaas which we will quote below.

This hadeeth clearly indicates that it was permissible to kill that woman because she used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Abu Dawood (4361) narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas that a blind man had a freed concubine (umm walad) who used to insult the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and say bad things about him. He told her not to do that but she did not stop, and he rebuked her but she did not heed him. One night, when she started to say bad things about the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and insult him, he took a short sword or dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it and killed her. The following morning that was mentioned to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He called the people together and said, “I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right over him that he should stand up.” The blind man stood up and said, “O Messenger of Allaah, I am the one who did it; she used to insult you and say bad things about you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not give up her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was kind to me. Last night she began to insult you and say bad things about you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.” Thereupon the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Bear witness, there is no blood money due for her.”

(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 3655)

It seems that this woman was a kaafir, not a Muslim, for a Muslim could never do such an evil action. If she was a Muslim she would have become an apostate by this action, in which case it would not have been permissible for her master to keep her; in that case it would not have been good enough if he were to keep her and simply rebuke her.

Al-Nasaa’i narrated (4071) that Abu Barzah al-Aslami said: A man spoke harshly to Abu Bakr al-Siddeeq and I said, ‘Shall I kill him?’ He rebuked me and said, ‘That is not for anyone after the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) .’” (Saheeh al-Nasaa’i, 3795)

It may be noted from this that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) had the right to kill whoever insulted him and spoke harshly to him, and that included both Muslims and kaafirs.

The second issue is: if a person who insulted the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) repents, should his repentance be accepted or not?

The scholars are agreed that if such a person repents sincerely and regrets what he has done, this repentance will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and Allaah will forgive him.

But they differed as to whether his repentance should be accepted in this world and whether that means he is no longer subject to the sentence of execution.

Maalik and Ahmad were of the view that it should not be accepted, and that he should be killed even if he has repented.

They quoted as evidence the Sunnah and proper understanding of the ahaadeeth:

In the Sunnah, Abu Dawood (2683) narrated that Sa’d ibn Abi Waqqaas said: “On the Day of the Conquest of Makkah, the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) granted safety to the people except for four men and two women, and he named them, and Ibn Abi Sarh… As for Ibn Abi Sarh, he hid with ‘Uthmaan ibn ‘Affaan, and when the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) called the people to give their allegiance to him, he brought him to stand before the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). He said, “O Prophet of Allaah, accept the allegiance of ‘Abd-Allaah.” He raised his head and looked at him three times, refusing him, then he accepted his allegiance after the third time. Then he turned to his companions and said: “Was there not among you any smart man who could have got up and killed this person when he saw me refusing to give him my hand and accept his allegiance?” They said, “We do not know what is in your heart, O Messenger of Allaah. Why did you not gesture to us with your eyes?” He said, “It is not befitting for a Prophet to betray a person with a gesture of his eyes.”

(Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood, 2334)

This clearly indicates that in a case such as this apostate who had insulted the Prophet (S), it is not obligatory to accept his repentance, rather it is permissible to kill him even if he comes repentant.

‘Abd-Allaah ibn Sa’d was one of those who used to write down the Revelation, then he apostatized and claimed that he used to add whatever he wanted to the Revelation. This was a lie and a fabrication against the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and it was a kind of insult. Then he became Muslim again and was a good Muslim, may Allaah be pleased with him. Al-Saarim 115.

With regard to proper understanding of the ahaadeeth:

They said that insulting the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) has to do with two rights, the right of Allaah and the right of a human being. With regard to the right of Allaah, this is obvious, because it is casting aspersions upon His Message, His Book and His Religion. As for the right of a human being, this is also obvious, because it is like trying to slander the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) by this insult. In a case which involves both the rights of Allaah and the rights of a human being, the rights of the human beings are not dropped when the person repents, as in the case of the punishment for banditry, because if the bandit has killed someone, that means that he must be executed and crucified. But if he repents before he is caught, then the right of Allaah over him, that he should be executed and crucified, no longer applies, but the rights of other humans with regard to qisaas (retaliatory punishment) still stand. The same applies in this case. If the one who insulted the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) repents, then the rights of Allaah no longer apply, but there remains the right of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which still stand despite his repentance.

If it is said, “Can we not forgive him, because during his lifetime the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forgave many of those who had insulted him and he did not execute them?” The answer is:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) sometimes chose to forgive those who had insulted him, and sometimes he ordered that they should be executed, if that served a greater purpose. But now his forgiveness is impossible because he is dead, so the execution of the one who insults him remains the right of Allaah, His Messenger and the believers, and the one who deserves to be executed cannot be let off, so the punishment must be carried out.

Al-Saarim al-Maslool, 2/438

Insulting the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is one of the worst of forbidden actions, and it constitutes kufr and apostasy from Islam, according to scholarly consensus, whether done seriously or in jest. The one who does that is to be executed even if he repents and whether he is a Muslim or a kaafir. If he repents sincerely and regrets what he has done, this repentance will benefit him on the Day of Resurrection and Allaah will forgive him

Sunan Abi Dawud and Sunan Nisa'i are a part of Sihah e Sittah, the six books of Hadith proven and considered most authentic by all the scholars of Muslims.[/QUOTE]



Excellent post bro.
Now this post is an excellent answer to this thread.

and to my Pakistani brothers who still have some kind of problem,below is the link of a book,download and read it.you people will find more then enough hadith and aayats
Al-Sarim-Ul-Maslool-Ala-Shatim-Ur-Rasool-by-Imam-Ibn-Tayyimia-URDU-Translation.pdf - *******.com - document sharing - download