Betrayed, Arabized

[Abu Zolfiqar]

thats nothing; ever been to Bahrain????

i would almost be tempted to make the case that it's the most ''liberal'' Arab country that exists

 

[Jango]

thats nothing; ever been to Bahrain????

i would almost be tempted to make the case that it's the most ''liberal'' Arab country that exists

exactly, and then people say arabization = islam!, you cannot generalize arabs and say that islam = arab.

 

[Safriz]

thats nothing; ever been to Bahrain????

i would almost be tempted to make the case that it's the most ''liberal'' Arab country that exists

Liberal as in more flesh to see? (well thats the type of liberalization most red blooded men on this forum want)

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

as in skin, booze, bars, nightclubs and a lot of casinos (from what i heard)

why do you think every weekend the Saudis go in herds to Bahrain for weekend fun? They do what they cant do in their own countries

 

[Safriz]

as in skin, booze, bars, nightclubs and a lot of casinos (from what i heard)

why do you think every weekend the Saudis go in herds to Bahrain for weekend fun? They do what they cant do in their own countries

You forgot Lebanon..The most "liberal" blue eyed blonds you will find in any "Arabized" country.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

and by extention, Syria to some extent --- which i believe is one of the few (perhaps only) secular Arab countries existing (the west already took out secular Saddam and Qaddafi has been de-throned)

 

[Safriz]

I dont think so any of us is facing, except for the few indulge in identity crisis.

come on, where exactly do you see this happening? have we got our course contents and language changed to Arabic?? oh wait I knew it... Dr M. Hashmi !!! despite his western outlook is a Wahabi inside, I knew he is planning to bring Arab culture through English...Sorry that is an Epic fail... Elaborate any other way ARAB CULTURE IS BEING IMPORTED?

you can put a Green paag on your head and adopt the made in Pakistan Islam.... and become mithay mithay Islami bhai, or phir sab madani madani ho jay ga....

by the way you know the Salma Stara now a days on Ladies gown is being copied from the ones used by Middle eastern ladies gowns ?? this is so Arabanization

 

[r3alist]

this is a good topic, especially right now.

i just seriously doubt the motivations of people who cannot discuss this without being confrontational.

 

[muse]

Its the search for identity.. more than Arabization.
When one has abandoned his cultural , religious and moral identity in an unguided quest for self progress.. and then suddenly has an awakening as to what is his/her's identity..
Like hansel and Gretel with the breadcrumbs.. they frantically run here and there searching for pieces of who they are.
Some end up at the witch's house.. and mistake the candy for breadcrumbs.

There is a sense of identity loss in Pakistani's in general..
There is an attempt to Arabize the populous..make no mistake, its real and it exists.
It is a move to make the masses subservient to clergy and glorify the false guardians of the kaaba.. who are the benefactors of such parties.

However.. there is also a Love for the Prophet in this nation and his companions and the wish to practice our religion with the freedom that they enjoyed in medina after the years at Makkah.. A love for them as Human beings and Muslims.
not as arabs.. To mistake that as Arabization would be to negate the very idea of the need for Pakistan's formation.

Excellent - so an "identity crisis" -- but look at what Santro suggests is "awakening" - one awakens not to being a Pakistani, but being a arabized Muzloum - how interesting is that -

And then of course Santro concedes that there is, generally, a sense of Identity loss in Pakistan - - WHY? is there this sense of identity loss if Islam is a binding factor?? See, friends, there are Muslims all around the world, but why is it that Pakistanis should experience a loss of their identity as Pakistanis, which is a social and cultural phenomenon, when they "awaken" to their arabized" selves, which is a religious or spiritual experience?? Why in Pakistan does one have ot abandon Pakistani history and cultures, to "awaken" to a "religious" sense of themselves, why do other Muslims not feel such an "awakening"??

Again, Santro makes the point which the lead article of the thread points to --

There is an attempt to Arabize the populous..make no mistake, its real and it exists.
It is a move to make the masses subservient to clergy and glorify the false guardians of the kaaba.. who are the benefactors of such parties.

If loving the beloved prophet and HOPING to develop FAITH, leads to negating the idea and the histories and the cultures of Pakistan, is it unfair to ask, as we have, if such a thing is a good/bad or right/wrong thing???????

If "Freedom to practice our religion" means negating Pakistan, it's histories, it's cultures, then lets have less of this "freedom" -- after all, we do not give such "freedoms" to anyone, why should we make an exception for these "arabized" Pakistines (not Pakistanis)

 

[T-Faz]

Let me define Arabization from my perspective, it is the growing influence of Arab culture and customs on Non-Arab Muslim countries. Arab societal behavior and norms have been wrongly intertwined with Islamic behavior and norms. The two being completely different as Arabic culture and custom is suitable for Arabs while Muslim culture and custom is suitable for all Muslims.

Owing to Mullah ibadat and lack of knowledge, many Muslims have been left without any guidance and hence have been let to believe that Arabization is the natural progression of society in-order to become more "Islamic".

Foregoing natural development of society and opting for Arabization has resulted in absolute catastrophe for Pakistan. Since the 80's the social fabric of this nation has been destroyed to such a great extent that the country is just passing through one man made difficulty after another.

Remember, we are a diverse society, multi-ethnic, multi-sectarian and multi-religious society. Not a single ethnicity like the Arabs where one sect reigns supreme and no other religions requires provisions for it.

Like a Jordanian told me, Sufi's in Jordan aren't able to do anything in the open and opt to remain quiet about their leaning, Jordanians too prefer it that way. That made me realize that all we borrowed from the Arabs were their negative habits, we didn't borrow anything positive from them, if anything like this exists of course.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

a round of applause for T-faz, who finally (after almost 800 posts of chit-chatter and garbage) was able to have the courage to sit down and define this so-called 'arabization'

does what you described take place in Pakistan? To some extent yes.....but on a broader level, Pakistan is Pakistan; the people dont abandon their culture to adopt that foreign one (as partly explained in my last post)


so why dont u all just give it a rest now before you run out of supply of clean undies.....go enjoy the great outdoors

 

[T-Faz]

does what you described take place in Pakistan? To some extent yes.....but on a broader level, Pakistan is Pakistan; the people dont abandon their culture to adopt that foreign one (as partly explained in my last post)

I agree with your sentence, what takes place in Pakistan is forced cultural change by the leadership, be it Arabization or anything else.

Sharif bradaran will definitely try to impose this but like you said, Pakistan is Pakistan and a number of people here will always voice opposition to any forced change or implementation that this nation goes through.

Its been 30 odd years since we have changed drastically from a more open, tolerant country but to this day people call for a reversal back to those times.

There will always be people in Pakistan who oppose intolerance and forced change, this thread proves it.

 

[muse]

See, after the initial "defensive" reaction of some here, they realize the truth of what the lead article is saying, because well, we experience it - can't deny experience.

I hope it becomes clear to some of us, that for Pakistanis, when discussing cultural propositions that have assumed a "religious" aura, that the defensive responses, is a given - and that it is only once the defensiveness has had a chance to die down, do we get people being reasonable.

We presented a cultural proposition - it was reacted to, as if a religious proposition was being presented - and this is most revealing, the conflation of these two separate ideas as one, in the minds of some, is the essence of what the author of the lead article has suggested as the content of "arabization".

The more we confuse aspects of arabian culture, whether from the 7th century or from whatever century, as the substance of Islam, the further away we are from Islam, the guide for developing FAITH for all humanity, and the more arabized we are. Is it good/bad and right/wrong thing to engage in conflating the cultural with the religious??

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You have yourself answered it.

Only this time it is just "rather sad" while earlier it was Jahiliyah!

In fact, a "self proclaimed imposter prophet" (which he must have seemed to those who opposed him, as someone making similar claims would seem to many now) and his followers would be "persecuted and hunted for propagating a new religion" more now than then.

So what is the difference again?

PS: In fact one could argue that this intolerance is more institutionalized now than it ever was, ever could be pre Jahiliyah.

Still waiting for the proof.

See the quoted post above - as I said, while your language may be more moderate than the last time which resulted in your ban, your derogatory generalizations about an entire faith and entire societies continue.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You are going tangential here. I am not even sure what your position is.

I don't think the "hardening" is due to the "concept of nation states" and obviously faith is used as a justification. No point denying the obvious.

My position is pretty clear - I am extrapolating from the religious intolerance displayed by pre-Islamic Arabia, highlighted by the persecution of Mohammed and his followers for preaching a 'new faith', to support the argument that pre-Islamic Arabia likely did suffer from the various other social ills that Muslim historians argue existed.

So predictable.

I have seen you longing for the Taliban to come back to Afghanistan and presumably restart their great deeds on the Afghan women and Hazaras and others.[

A distortion of my position on the subject of political reconciliation in Afghanistan for 'peace', as is usual with you.

I have seen you wanting "another chance" on the hapless Bengalis who would want no part of that.

Wow, instead of distortions, we are down to outright lies now. Apparently there is no limit to the intellectually dishonest lows you will sink to is there? But then again, what else can be expected from individuals with the levels of prejudice and hatred (towards Islam and Pakistan in your case) that you display..

Doesn't mean I carry that baggage around in every thread.

How could you? As soon as you bring the rubbish above that you concocted about me, you would stand shown as a liar. Well, since you have gone ahead and done it, how about substantiating the above?

I care a damn about how you want to label me. That is a convenient scapegoat to avoid the issues involved and you guys are pretty quick to use it. As for ban, it is easy for any "moderator" to do that. I would know that. You have been banned on another forum as well and I thought that was not correct and actually voiced my opinion there.

There is a significant difference between your ban and mine - yours was for derogatory generalizations about a faith. Mine was over countering an argument by a moderator regarding the 'veracity of sources' - the same moderator then threatened to ban Asim if he refused to support the official American position of the OBL raid and Drone Strikes being legal under international law.

There is a world of difference between the justifications used on each forum - we demand civility, respect and avoidance of derogatory generalizations against nations, peoples and faiths. The forum you refer to was threatening bans over the refusal of Pakistani members to accept the official American position on a subject that remains unresolved and the focus of much debate internationally, including inside the US.

I think the Shia may not agree with the "first four Caliphates" part and far too many of your own compatriots would disagree with Turkey being an "Islamic" country.

The Shia disagree with the choice of the first three Caliphs, that is an argument of history, but the sectarian divide did not even exist until much later. The Shia disagreement over the choice of the first three Caliphs does not negate the argument of theological historians about the kind of government/State run by those Caliphs.

I would totally agree with that. A society is as good as the people it comprises of.

So why these dogmatic debates that one system is the only right one and all others are deserving of eternal hellfire just because they were born to another belief system?

Because that is what humans and societies, which as you agree are flawed, will do. It does not matter to me that an American Evangelist may think I will 'burn in eternal hellfire' for not believing in Jesus, so long as that Evangelist keeps to his own business and does not shove his beliefs in my face. I have no problem with conservative Muslims looking down upon my pratice/non-practice of traditional Islam, so long as they mind their own business and don't shove their beliefs in my face.

What I am getting at is that personal beliefs are not the issue, even if they revolve around the 'other' burning in eternal hellfire, it s the imposition of personal beliefs on others, especially those that do not share them, that is the issue.

No disputing this but this is exactly at the heart of the issue of this thread.

That is not what is 'at the heart of this thread' - this thread is about generalizing and denigrating an entire peoples and culture - Arabs.

My argument is that rather than creating bogeymen of 'Arabs, Wahabis, Agencies, Great Satan etc.', we focus on the specific issues plaguing our society and nation, and many of those issues (such as the social ills I pointed out in my previous posts) have nothing to do with 'Arabi's'.

The 'Arabi' is merely a convenient scapegoat currently for liberals of a particular bent, much like the 'Great Satan' is a scapegoat for social conservatives of a particular bent.