Best Tank? Lets figure!

[zraver]

Abrams M1A2 SEP 12 25.00%
T-90S 5 10.42%
T-80UD 2 4.17%
T-84 1 2.08%
Merkava Mk. 4 6 12.50%
Leopard 2A6 16 33.33%
Leclerc 2 4.17%
Type 99 1 2.08%
Challenger 2 3 6.25%

Ok let me take this list apart

protection

The Russians claim the RPG-29 (105mm HEAT warhead) can penetrate the front of the T-80/90 yet that sae weapon failed to penetrate the front of the Merkava, no American or british tanks has been penetrated form the front depsite some very indicsative evidence of the use of Kornets in Iraq. so protection wise the T series heads straight to the bottom.

firepower

Likewise they fail the firepower test with 600mm RHAe penetration claimed vs 800mmRHAe claimed for western 120mm guns

mobility

the T-90S is horribly underpowered the T-80 and T-84 have equal mobility compared to the fastest MBTs and are better than the Chally or merkava

FCS

The newest really is the best, if Russian FCS wer eanygood export cusotmers would not be replacing the original FCS.

1 M1A2SEP/TUSK
2 Leo 2A6
3 Challanger II
4 M1A2 SEP
5 Leo 2a5
6 Leclerc (batch 7+)
7 Merkava IV
8 M1A1D
9 Challanger l
10 M1A1HA
11 Leo 2
12 Merkava III
13 Arjun
14 Ariete
15 Type 90
16 M1A1
17 ZTZ 99
18 Al Khalid
19 T-80UD
20 T-90


Notice I ahve to go all the way to #17 before I can add any tank with a 125mm gun.

 

[Keysersoze]

Ok the question is this.....

I have seen footage of Merkava tanks being struck by guided missles(from complaints by Israel they were claimed to be Kornets)and being imobilised/destroyed (It's debatable as to that point but the tank looks out of action regardless.)

I have seen a clearer version that was broadcast on Israeli TV and it is definitely a Merkava.However i cannot seem to find the damn video....

Could it be that the Kornet use you describe could be due to poor usage by the attacking parties? After all, most of the guys (in Iraq)we saw were somewhat amatuerish in their efforts???

 

[zraver]

Ok the question is this.....

I have seen footage of Merkava tanks being struck by guided missles(from complaints by Israel they were claimed to be Kornets)and being imobilised/destroyed (It's debatable as to that point but the tank looks out of action regardless.)

I have seen a clearer version that was broadcast on Israeli TV and it is definitely a Merkava.However i cannot seem to find the damn video....

Could it be that the Kornet use you describe could be due to poor usage by the attacking parties? After all, most of the guys (in Iraq)we saw were somewhat amatuerish in their efforts???

look for destroyed merkava on Youtube

You will see the tank neve rmoves it was previously taken out by a mine (look at the burnign truck) hezzbollah brought in a camera crew and staged the event and all the imapcts come in from the side. they were shoting a dead tank.

 

[joey]

Zraver I know a guy whos working on Arjun, Can you tell me what makes it less better than Merkava IV?

He's Israeli and He told that the gun is extremely powerful and he cannot provide operational data but it can take any tank in world is sure kill in 2 km range and in subcontinent any tank with 4.2 km range.

He said he didnt expected such a find to use the Gun like that from India, it surprised him.
He also said hes now involved in using a bit NERA and giving some final touches, which will make it as equally protected as merkava IV and abrahm as the NERA hes using is compared to them.

It has excelent BMS with networking capability, can fire Lahat has HEAT,HESH much lower ground pressure, very good Armour"which army never really complained about", 7 road wheels , muzzle ref system, modular system "like that of lecrec".

Is it the engine that puts it down?
I think it is the only drawback as german refused to give us the latest fuel efficient 1500 HP engine also it doesnt has any Air conditionning.

I'm just wanna know the drawbacks.

 

[joey]

He said Arjun is going on Armour updates like that of Lecrec went after 2001 or something batches?

 

[joey]

Maybe it doesnt has 125 mm gun as opposed to 120 mm and cant fire DU rounds? thats the drawback?
Or can it fire em?

But he said the 120 mm is very very very powerful.

 

[joey]

zraver you saw the 2004 Magazine review?
It has gone for some updates till then.

 

[zraver]

what make sit less than the Merkava

1- lack of a proven combat history
2- lack of AC in the desert
3- Engine
4- cost
5- crew training
6- lack of intergrated doctrine
7- More forgien components
8- smaller production run
9- Rifled vs smoothbore (increased barrel wear and cost)
10- just entering serive, using last generation technology (yes it i the best tank on the subcontinet but the DRDO has so mucked things up it is a generation out of date MBT technology wise)

the differance between the big 15 is matter of small degrees when comapred to a T series tank.

 

[joey]

Thanks,
indeed no tank alone wins a battle, but I'm sure IA is changing doctrine a bit these days, we saw some massive millitary mockups.

It is also taking up Net centric like US on extremely fast basis "already made 4-7 types of services operational".

A UGV has been developed too... hopefully doctrine will change.

more foreign components - true but then again we simply cannot produce such a engine on our first try.

crew training - i'm not worried about those yanks r there

Engine is indeed a issue [not latest], and IA didnt wanted AC i think it is to save power!

10 - I didnt get you here, can you please tell what changes are needed to make it on par with current gen's?

The guy whos working on it said its on par with Merkava if not better, specially the new updates coming on MKII version will make it.

 

[joey]

the differance between the big 15 is matter of small degrees when comapred to a T series tank.

Cool xd, didnt knew this.

 

[joey]

One more thing, If you were in DRDO and have this version of Arjun completed, what would you have done?, to make it better than it is now besides provind NERA/ERA , increasing effieicney which are being done.
Just wanna know your view so that can throw to some sources .

And how will this perform if fitted with a 155 mm Self propelled howitzer as planned a version of Arjun by DRDO if wanted by Army.

btw, check this Autocar 2004 review
http://s90370077.onlinehome.us/Arjun1.pdf

modifications are done after this though.

 

[sword9]

I think a better discussion point would be, who is better trained to take advantage of the armour at their disposal?

You and I can sit and talk about all sorts of tanks and wish that our armies of preference had this or that, however in the end, tactics and training matter more in the conduct of armoured warfare. With the newer type of munitions being able to defeat many of the reactive armours etc., its mostly a matter of who knows how to exploit the hardware on hand to the fullest extent against the adversary.....on a side note, at least from a South Asian point of view, I can say without bias that both Pakistani and Indian Armies have thus far proved "how not to fight an armoured war". Both sides have missed plenty of opportunities in the past wars to take advantage of very decent hardware in the possesion of both.

I completely agree with you here, it is the deployment and tactics used that will make the difference in the subcontinent. That is only "If" we have learnt our lessons.

In Sri Lanka the LTTE showed the IPKF how to make T-72s fly 45-50 feet with 2-3 buckets of TNT.

Today, a tank has a lot of crap directed at him from standard inf units, so gone are the old days when they could charge through.

 

[zraver]

Joey,

A commanders independant thermal viewe woud be nice, 2nd generation FLIR, brigade level satalite linked blufor-redfor management system

Tanks make horrible artillery becuase of the rear mounted engine

no AC/ammo cooling in the desert and bustle rack storage heats the ammo causig an uneven burn of the propellant affecting performace, this is something the US learned in GW1.

Today, a tank has a lot of crap directed at him from standard inf units, so gone are the old days when they could charge through.

That depends on tactics, as a tanker I would rahter find a way past you and then shoot up your rear areas and cause terror.

 

[joey]

hmm minor upgrades.. hopefully except the AC.

your saying helicopters flying past btw do Arjuns need dedicated Armoured vehicles and stuffs to take care of helicopters?

cuz DRDO is working on one based on same Arjuns armour.
Effective ways to eliminate roovilak[south africa's attack chopper]+hellfire combo setup Pakistan might get?

 

[zraver]

Thats why the Arjun has the lahat for anti-helo ops. Although if the pakistanis get hellfires and begin using buddy lasing the whole game changes. The Hellfire can be lanched from behind cover, is super sonic and dives top down. The best defence for helos is fighters with look down shoot down pulse doppler radar.