Behind the CeaseFireLine (CFL) ......

[Signalian]

@Signalian my dear Pak,

Have you kept an eye on GanguTerroristArmy excercises in Ladkh? Anything special this time... in terms of number of troops, equipment, tactics and overall integeration of battlegroup?

Also, something to take into consieration... Trump said that there is going to be TriServices excercises between the two countries in November this year... something called AngryTiger or something... quite obviously it would be directed at China...and as byproduct on us...

Most interesting would be the areas where these excercises would be held along with the scope ... plus troops/equipment...the usual.

I still beleive a WinterWar is a distinct possibility... would be massive air campaign... given GanguTerroristArmy has more helis as you have highlighted already....

Question: What are the possible scenarios of the attack?
How many fronts can be opened against us simultaneouly?
Western borders first?

What FacistModi said in Huston... we need to take that seriously... they are itching for war and finish us off/ or hurt us in such a way that we won't be able to stand up for decades.. and of course, AJK/GB endgame.

Let us hear from you!

Its the deployment of ABG (Armored Brigade Group) in that region which shows that Indian Army wants to use Armor even in mountains and is willing to pay the cost for high altitude armor operations, just like its paying the price in Siachen. There are said to be 2 x T-90 Regiments, 1 x T-72 Regiment and 2 x BMP-2 Mechanised Infantry Regiments. That makes up roughly 177 MBT's and 100-120 BMP-2's. It should have related Artillery and AD assets attached to it. Indian Armor is said to be deployed against Chinese Ground forces which could lead a multi prong attack into Indian region. These Indian forces are supposed to be backed up by Para-Troopers and could also have UAV support.

India has correctly assessed this region for armor/mechanized combat, but its a valley nonetheless, which is almost enclosed from all sides, so although the room to maneuver is present, it still doesn't give rise to opportunities of armored warfare such as flanking maneuvers or blitzkrieg.

Operationally, its important to point out that these armored forces were air-lifted into the region,which shows;

1. India Army can be expected to air lift armor into forward zones during a war with Pakistan or China.This air lift could occur in any region. 12-15 MBTs air lifted towards a critical sector can tilt a skirmish in India's favor or even save a threatened sector. This is almost what happened in 47-48 to save Srinagar, the troops landing at Srinagar airport saved the city from falling along with their armored cars.

2. Even if the area to maneuver in Ladakh is limited which means it might not be possible to throw in all MBT's into combat when the skirmish or war starts, IA will deploy some Tank squadrons with Infantry Battalions, which will give effective fire power against Chinese. The rest of the Tank squadrons will be be held in reserve for counter attacking the Chinese. So operationally, its a good idea to move in 150+ Tanks with crews into the region, instead of keeping a minimal deterrence of just a regiment. It also means that spares and reinforcements won't be required on urgent basis, which lifts the burden from Logistics. I am not sure about Chinese deployments but there could be Type-96 or a Lighter Tank deployed in this region against Indian Army. India has seen Type-96 closely in Tank Biathlon, where as Chinese have been up against T-72 B3 and IA T-90, so both armies have extensively observed the rival tanks and would have deduced their strengths and weaknesses.

3. These Tanks landed at Leh airport and moved east-wards to be deployed in southern east region. What if next time, Indian tanks landing at Leh Airport start moving west-wards along the SriNagar-Leh Highway towards AJK ? Thats where the threat lies for Pakistan. They might not be able to reach Batalik or Kargil, neither operate at those peaks, but they could block a Pakistani Advance towards Leh. Even if IA deploys a Squadron worth of T-90 Tanks (12-15), to block PA approach towards Leh, this could completely halt the advance of Pakistani Forces (if there was any from kargil or Batalik). One of the reasons is that FCNA and GB scouts do not conduct excercises with or against MBT's and IFVs and APCs. They will require support from Artillery or Probably from PAF to take on IA T-90's. Otherwise they would require use of ATGM. So far the use of ATGM on LOC is against static targets like bunkers, whose weaponry (LMG/Sniper etc) cannot retaliate against PA troops firing ATGM's. The T-90 will not be stationary and it will definitely fire with its 125 mm. Both the ATGM and the 125mm cannon require LOS.

I thought you should have been more concerned about Indian T-90's deployed in Akhnoor Region.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

SPG is not used in mountains.

The roads are narrow at times, movement is restricted and so is the deployment. Good Roads can sometimes handle 15-20 Tonnage, anything above that damages the road. The warfare is mostly static due to nature of terrain, where as SPGs are used in mobile warfare.

MLRS is a possibility but trajectories maybe hard to achieve due to Mountain peaks.

Pakistan Army did reach out the highest points of our borders with India where they supplied weapons and logistics along with sling using PUMA which flew beyond operational limits.

This thinking was if Pakistan Army can supply one or two guns and large amount of bullets then only one soldier can be enough because from highlever it is a duck shoot on climbing solders.

 

[Signalian]

Pakistan Army did reach out the highest points of our borders with India where they supplied weapons and logistics along with sling using PUMA which flew beyond operational limits.

This thinking was if Pakistan Army can supply one or two guns and large amount of bullets then only one soldier can be enough because from highlever it is a duck shoot on climbing solders.

Pack howitzer or Light howitzer, yes, for defensive Ops.

Putting a SPG on peak is almost impossible and negates its purpose. Slinging an MLRS on truck chassis again not feasible, however towed MLRS (e.g Type-63/107 mm) could be possible but re-supplying it on the peak a major issue. MLRS deployed on peak can only be effective if re-supplied quickly and extensively due to its rate of fire.

 

[Inception-06]

Its the deployment of ABG (Armored Brigade Group) in that region which shows that Indian Army wants to use Armor even in mountains and is willing to pay the cost for high altitude armor operations, just like its paying the price in Siachen. There are said to be 2 x T-90 Regiments, 1 x T-72 Regiment and 2 x BMP-2 Mechanised Infantry Regiments. That makes up roughly 177 MBT's and 100-120 BMP-2's. It should have related Artillery and AD assets attached to it. Indian Armor is said to be deployed against Chinese Ground forces which could lead a multi prong attack into Indian region. These Indian forces are supposed to be backed up by Para-Troopers and could also have UAV support.

India has correctly assessed this region for armor/mechanized combat, but its a valley nonetheless, which is almost enclosed from all sides, so although the room to maneuver is present, it still doesn't give rise to opportunities of armored warfare such as flanking maneuvers or blitzkrieg.

Operationally, its important to point out that these armored forces were air-lifted into the region,which shows;

1. India Army can be expected to air lift armor into forward zones during a war with Pakistan or China.This air lift could occur in any region. 12-15 MBTs air lifted towards a critical sector can tilt a skirmish in India's favor or even save a threatened sector. This is almost what happened in 47-48 to save Srinagar, the troops landing at Srinagar airport saved the city from falling along with their armored cars.

2. Even if the area to maneuver in Ladakh is limited which means it might not be possible to throw in all MBT's into combat when the skirmish or war starts, IA will deploy some Tank squadrons with Infantry Battalions, which will give effective fire power against Chinese. The rest of the Tank squadrons will be be held in reserve for counter attacking the Chinese. So operationally, its a good idea to move in 150+ Tanks with crews into the region, instead of keeping a minimal deterrence of just a regiment. It also means that spares and reinforcements won't be required on urgent basis, which lifts the burden from Logistics. I am not sure about Chinese deployments but there could be Type-96 or a Lighter Tank deployed in this region against Indian Army. India has seen Type-96 closely in Tank Biathlon, where as Chinese have been up against T-72 B3 and IA T-90, so both armies have extensively observed the rival tanks and would have deduced their strengths and weaknesses.

3. These Tanks landed at Leh airport and moved east-wards to be deployed in southern east region. What if next time, Indian tanks landing at Leh Airport start moving west-wards along the SriNagar-Leh Highway towards AJK ? Thats where the threat lies for Pakistan. They might not be able to reach Batalik or Kargil, neither operate at those peaks, but they could block a Pakistani Advance towards Leh. Even if IA deploys a Squadron worth of T-90 Tanks (12-15), to block PA approach towards Leh, this could completely halt the advance of Pakistani Forces (if there was any from kargil or Batalik). One of the reasons is that FCNA and GB scouts do not conduct excercises with or against MBT's and IFVs and APCs. They will require support from Artillery or Probably from PAF to take on IA T-90's. Otherwise they would require use of ATGM. So far the use of ATGM on LOC is against static targets like bunkers, whose weaponry (LMG/Sniper etc) cannot retaliate against PA troops firing ATGM's. The T-90 will not be stationary and it will definitely fire with its 125 mm. Both the ATGM and the 125mm cannon require LOS.

I thought you should have been more concerned about Indian T-90's deployed in Akhnoor Region.

What is a LOS ?

 

[Inception-06]

Pack howitzer or Light howitzer, yes, for defensive Ops.

Putting a SPG on peak is almost impossible and negates its purpose. Slinging an MLRS on truck chassis again not feasible, however towed MLRS (e.g Type-63/107 mm) could be possible but re-supplying it on the peak a major issue. MLRS deployed on peak can only be effective if re-supplied quickly and extensively due to its rate of fire.

And deployment of Kornet would make absolute sense, as it will work in the harsh winter/arctic conditions. May be one of the reasons for the procurement. Till today I don't understand the procurement of the alcotan, we should stick on one system with local production. By the way, was the Bakthar Shikan tested on the high altitude Battlefield? I doubt that it will work, as it is wire control.

 

[ebrahym]

What is a LOS ?

line of sight

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

It is expected that in the next major war between Pakistan - India, the IA will cross CFL, penetrate into Gilgit, Skardu and could even reach Chitral.

I have these dreams of 6th Armored division doing weapons check before final assault towards Panipat in a move to link up with Chinese coming from North East .

 

[CHI RULES]

In any ware scenario the two main factors are not discussed here.
1. The high altitude points still in PA control since Kargil operation.
2.The role of thousands of Kashmiri Mujahdeen already present in Kashmir valley especially in thick forest areas. Another aspect is role which can be played by Alpha/Mao separatists which certainly have connections with Kashmiri Mujahdeen are much capable to damage the IA from behind.

Iran is already tilted from Indian side to Pakistan especially after India has cut down it's economic ties with Iran further the ANA/northern alliance is also not in position to penetrate Pak except few limited hit and run operations, if in near future either Taliban are indulged in war with NA or become a part of Govt the Afghan border side shall also become almost safe for Pak.

 

[omegalamba7XL9]

1. Time to stop talk more action. Keep good relations with US at the same time support insurgency in Kashmir.
2. India wants Pakistan to fight conventional war because they are afraid they wont be able to keep up with non conventional warfare for long time because it will hurt their economy.1000 cuts strategy back on but this time in hyper drive mode.
3.After UN address Pakistan's responsibility towards international community is done. Pakistan highlighted the danger and begged UN to intervene but now situation will dictate terms rather than UN.
Mr PM and the whole administration needs to be in hyper drive aggressive mode while abstaining for childish behavior such as while addressing in Muzzafarabad he said "mujhay patta hay kay app log ceasefire line cross karna chatay hain lakin abhi nahi jab tak mein na kahoin" I mean why bring it up on the first place or another example of PA training militants while addressing the think tank interview. It was a decision of the state and head of state to which PA complied. Why did he forget to mention that it was ZA Bhutto who ordered PA to arm the resistance in Afghanistan against Soviets.
Why civilian Govt shy away from taking responsibility? Anyways at the moment civilian govt that is either PM or Foriegn minister one of them have to be super aggressive so that our DGISPR wont have to tweet too much so that the world can understand that it's not military but Pakistani people who mean business and military wont be able to resist people's will for long.
At the moment PM IK needs to hush up about this group and that group and just let things happen. If every country including our brothers are silent about Kashmir I wonder if they will pay heed to the screaming and shouting of India when we light their *** up. Under Trump expect the same he will show some solidarity with Modi but because of his relationship with Imran Khan Pakistan wont bare those consequences which it did like under Clinton or like under Obama. Oh and India just pissed off lots of Democrats as well. So I think for next few years we need to ramp up the 5th generation hybrid warfare targeting one thing and one thing only Indian Economy. If we need to succeed we cant do it only be improving our economy only we need to make sure to weaken the competition and their strength. Look what they did to us they improved their economy while hitting ours through Kulbushan's type monkey's. Sri Lanka cricket attack army bases schools mosque markets they hit us everywhere. Time to return the favour. In past 20 years this is the chance time is ripe and iron is hot.

 

[Inception-06]

In any ware scenario the two main factors are not discussed here.
1. The high altitude points still in PA control since Kargil operation.
2.The role of thousands of Kashmiri Mujahdeen already present in Kashmir valley especially in thick forest areas. Another aspect is role which can be played by Alpha/Mao separatists which certainly have connections with Kashmiri Mujahdeen are much capable to damage the IA from behind.

Iran is already tilted from Indian side to Pakistan especially after India has cut down it's economic ties with Iran further the ANA/northern alliance is also not in position to penetrate Pak except few limited hit and run operations, if in near future either Taliban are indulged in war with NA or become a part of Govt the Afghan border side shall also become almost safe for Pak.

"thousands of Kashmiri Mujahdeen " lol really? We have seen their performance during the Kargil war and the recent crisis.

 

[Inception-06]

Pack howitzer or Light howitzer, yes, for defensive Ops.

Putting a SPG on peak is almost impossible and negates its purpose. Slinging an MLRS on truck chassis again not feasible, however towed MLRS (e.g Type-63/107 mm) could be possible but re-supplying it on the peak a major issue. MLRS deployed on peak can only be effective if re-supplied quickly and extensively due to its rate of fire.

see what these MLRS targeted in the mountains.

 

[CHI RULES]

"thousands of Kashmiri Mujahdeen " lol really? We have seen their performance during the Kargil war and the recent crisis.

For guerrilla attacks even 2-3000 Kashmiri Mujahdeen shall be enough to sabotage infrastructure in Kashmir valley. The Mujahdeen so far are not active as they are waiting for right time. The performance of Mujahdeen/PA was exceptional however the whole planning had some flaws and internal rift also played it's role. Mujahids operate in small groups and are divided in different organisations. On the other hand the numbers of Mao separatists is also in thousands.

 

[Inception-06]

For guerrilla attacks even 2-3000 Kashmiri Mujahdeen shall be enough to sabotage infrastructure in Kashmir valley. The Mujahdeen so far are not active as they are waiting for right time. The performance of Mujahdeen/PA was exceptional however the whole planning had some flaws and internal rift also played it's role. Mujahids operate in small groups and are divided in different organisations. On the other hand the numbers of Mao separatists is also in thousands.

impossible!

 

[Signalian]

see what these MLRS targeted in the mountains.

I thought we were discussing MLRS deployed on mountain peaks. The issue of reverse slope deployment and trajectory to target that ?

Anyways, i saw the video. That Mi-17 with medic markings reminds me of an incident in FATA narrated by someone where an officer, a JCO and a NCO had lifted a critically wounded soldier and ran some distance (800m i think) towards the heli which had just landed in nick of time to evacuate that wounded soldier. Heli had to land at a considerable distance from their position due to enemy small arms fire. All three ran like anything carrying him, and when they were going to place the wounded soldier on the stretcher in heli....the soldier lost the fight with his life.
Imagine the disappointment.

I also saw pics of PA soldiers using BMP-2s in this exercise Center 2019, do correct me if i am wrong.

Did you also see dismounted troops with armored vehicles, possibly T-72 and BMPs ?
PA mechanized doctrine is not that obsolete

 

[Shah_G]

It is expected that in the next major war between Pakistan - India, the IA will cross CFL, penetrate into Gilgit, Skardu and could even reach Chitral.

Indians will cross CFL from chamb sector first, as they have an advantage there.