Beautiful Post : Kashmir - SarthakGanguly's Logical Comment

[Armstrong]

I asked for proof and you could not provide any.Asking me to search for proof only makes your case weak.

What kind of an argument is this ? Do you think surveys are conducted over this that I'd have proof of this ? I simply shared what Pakistanis have stated numerous times either in person, in their writings or in talk-shows - Do you think I make a list of what they say, at which point in time & by whom so that when Levina asks me for 'proof' I can present that ?

And besides my case had nothing to do with whether Pakistan wants an Independent Kashmir or not it had to do with the Right of Self-Determination; the fact that most Pakistanis are alright with an Independent Kashmir was only mentioned in addition but like always whenever you run out of arguments you latch onto a single statement like a barnacle & throw a tantrum !

I urge you to ask Pakistanis in the UAE !

But if you still want some proof how about what the President of AJK said : Jammu and Kashmir: AJK president hints at ‘third option’ talks – The Express Tribune

And the FO spokesperson said this in '09 : 'Independent Kashmir' will ensure peace in South Asia: Pak - Indian Express

 

[Areesh]

This was your post

In our conversation you were the first to bring in Baluchistan ...not me.

In response to Indian rants on Baluchistan. I didn't brought it first.

 

[Levina]

What kind of an argument is this ? Do you think surveys are conducted over this that I'd have proof of this ? I simply shared what Pakistanis have stated numerous times either in person, in their writings or in talk-shows - Do you think I make a list of what they say, at which point in time & by whom so that when Levina asks me for 'proof' I can present that ?

And besides my case had nothing to do with whether Pakistan wants an Independent Kashmir or not it had to do with the Right of Self-Determination; the fact that most Pakistanis are alright with an Independent Kashmir was only mentioned in addition but like always whenever you run out of arguments you latch onto a single statement like a barnacle & throw a tantrum !

I urge you to ask Pakistanis in the UAE !

But if you still want some proof how about what the President of AJK said : Jammu and Kashmir: AJK president hints at ‘third option’ talks – The Express Tribune

And the FO spokesperson said this in '09 : 'Independent Kashmir' will ensure peace in South Asia: Pak - Indian Express

So you mean to tell me that Pakistan fought 3 wars ('47,'65 & '99) against India just because Pakistan wants to see kashmir as an Independent state??
I should be a boudet to believe that theory when I know well that all the 3 wars were started by our neighbor.
So whats the plan?? liberate kashmir and then take over Kashmir ??

In response to Indian rants on Baluchistan. I didn't brought it first.

I said "IN OUR CONVERSATION" you were the first to bring Baluchistan.

 

[jbond197]

You clearly have not gone through my posts or povs and have been selective and prejudiced. Unless you don't know me properly stop taking personal jibes at me as you did yesterday.

Wonderful!! Then you people should stop giving certificates of communalism to others without knowing someone in person..

 

[Armstrong]

So you mean to tell me that Pakistan fought 3 wars ('47,'65 & '99) against India just because Pakistan wants to see kashmir as an Independent state??
I should be a boudet to believe that theory when I know well that all the 3 wars were started by our neighbor.
So whats the plan?? liberate kashmir and then take over Kashmir ??

When have I said that Pakistan fought 3 Wars because it wanted to see Kashmir as an Independent State ?

I said that Pakistan supports the Kashmiri's Right to Self-Determination & that some Pakistanis from politicians to intellectuals from the common man to the observers are alright if Kashmir becomes an Independent State !

I can understand that when one runs out of arguments taking the entire debate on a tangent is a peculiarly Indian quality but this is too much.

If you don't believe me when I say that quite a few Pakistanis will be okay with an Independent Kashmir you can ask @waz or any other ethnic Kashmiri from Pakistan, on this forum !

I said "IN OUR CONVERSATION" you were the first to bring Baluchistan.

I don't recall mentioning Baluchistan !

 

[Levina]

When have I said that Pakistan fought 3 Wars because it wanted to see Kashmir as an Independent State ?

Okay then give me the reasons as to why all those wars were fought??

I said that Pakistan supports the Kashmiri's Right to Self-Determination & that some Pakistanis from politicians to intellectuals from the common man to the observers are alright if Kashmir becomes an Independent State !

Joke of the day!!

I don't recall mentioning Baluchistan !

Re read my post.
I guess you're sleepy and not in a sate to argue.

 

[Armstrong]

Okay then give me the reasons as to why all those wars were fought??

Most likely to force a solution to the Kashmir Issue after years of frustration at India's 'Talk & Talk & Talk some more policies on Kashmir while doing absolutely nothing' !

Joke of the day!!

You would not understand because for you Pakistan is the bogeyman who always has an ulterior motive up his sleeve & could do no right while India is the proverbial Dove of Peace & the Knight in Shinning Armor who could do no wrong !

Re read my post.
I guess you're sleepy and not in a sate to argue.

I did re-read your post; I don't know where I mentioned Baluchistan in my conversations....perhaps you were talking to someone else in a post addressed to me !

 

[Levina]

Most likely to force a solution to the Kashmir Issue after years of frustration at India's 'Talk & Talk & Talk some more policies on Kashmir while doing absolutely nothing' !

Nothing about what???
If you really practise what you preach then make the part of kashmir under Pakistani control an independent state.
Agree?

for you Pakistan is the bogeyman who always has an ulterior motive up his sleeve & could do no right while India is the proverbial Dove of Peace & the Knight in Shinning Armor who could do no wrong !

BIG FAT YES!!!

I did re-read your post; I don't know where I mentioned Baluchistan in my conversations....perhaps you were talking to someone else in a post addressed to me !

Get your eyes tested.
That part of the my post was in reply to Areesh's post.

 

[Armstrong]

Nothing about what???
If you really practise what you preach then make the part of kashmir under Pakistani control an independent state.
Agree?

Agreed; right after you allow them the Right of Self-Determination !

Otherwise if Pakistan makes AJK - an already quasi-independent entity - a complete independent state, India - as hypocritical as you people are - would consider the matter over & none of that would be reciprocated on the other side.

That is precisely why bilateral issues are resolved by movement on both sides not unilateralism otherwise would you taking the same logic unilaterally withdraw from Siachin ?

BIG FAT YES!!!

Whats the point then of continuing on this conversation if you look at everything from Saffron, White & Green tinted glasses ?

 

[HRK]

1(iv) comes later. After the platitude offered in 1(i) comes the real price paid by Pakistan to get back its defeated Army in the first sentence of 1(ii).

​

Sarkar it could be your personal interpretation of half the sentence of clause 1(ii) which I doubt that you can back it by any official document or evidence, this sub-clause (ii) is not specific with one single issue but covering all the issues & disputes in general which is evident by the wordings quoted under:

"Pending the Final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation"

==============================

Very smartly you've circumvented around my questions.Why could you not answer 'em?

Khatoon Basaad Khuloos Wa Ithrem Irz Hai ke your questions hold no grounds its just just collective wishfulness of India, for which Pakistan or Pakistanis are not bound to reciprocate.

 

[VCheng]

Sarkar it could be your personal interpretation of half the sentence of clause 1(ii) which I doubt that you can back it by any official document or evidence, this sub-clause (ii) is not specific with one single issue but covering all the issues & disputes in general which is evident by the wordings quoted under:
"Pending the Final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation"

There is nothing personal in my interpretation. ALL disputes (including Kashmir) have been rendered as BILATERAL matters after this agreement, and NO third party (including UN) can intervene unless BOTH parties agree. End of story.

And if you cannot accept that, please read the many statements if the UN Sec-Gen that clearly support what I have said above.

 

[HRK]

There is nothing personal in my interpretation. ALL disputes (including Kashmir) have been rendered as BILATERAL matters after this agreement, and NO third party (including UN) can intervene unless BOTH parties agree. End of story.

And if you cannot accept that, please read the many statements if the UN Sec-Gen that clearly support what I have said above.

plz read clause I (i), addition to this

Kashmir is not a bilateral matter as India & Pakistan is in agreement that Kashmir is a dispute of International gravity in the form of UN resolutions.

 

[Levina]

Agreed; right after you allow them the Right of Self-Determination !

How is the right of self determination on the Indian side related to freeing a captured Kashmir on your side??
Why cant you accept it that its not the kashmiris who matter but the land...Kashmir?
Otherwise you would've agreed to make LOC an international border long back.
Everyone knows of kasshmir's strategic importance.You need to accept that your footing on the Kashmir issue is weak, which is why after every few years your come up with military solutions to the mater making the ice beneath our feet thinner than before. Taking a hard line on matters where you are in a weaker position doesn’t make matters better for you but only display your weakness and lack of options.

Khatoon Basaad Khuloos Wa Ithrem Irz Hai ke your questions hold no grounds its just just collective wishfulness of India, for which Pakistan or Pakistanis are not bound to reciprocate.

Khan Saab whats India's wishful thinking??
i think the easiest way to resolve the kashmir issue is by making LOC the international border.Why does Pakistan (amry) 've to indulge in nefarious activities?? Pakistan has been the aggressor in all 3 wars and the international community sided with India.You do know that India and Pakistan dont 've the wherewithal to continue a perpetual war in Kashmir.


Off topic :

Khatoon Basaad Khuloos Wa Ithrem

Janab e alaa isska matlab bhi batayenge?

 

[Armstrong]

How is the right of self determination on the Indian side related to freeing a captured Kashmir on your side??

Because the right of self-determination is guaranteed by the UN which recognizes the entire former princely state of J&K as a disputed region & grants the inhabitants of that state the right of self-determination and because Kashmiris on both sides are One People with their fates intertwined with each other.

Furthermore had I believed that AJK was occupied territory....I would not be arguing Pakistan's case here.

Why cant you accept it that its not the kashmiris who matter but the land...Kashmir?

The Kashmiris & the Land go hand in hand just as British Indians & British India went hand-in-hand; asking the Kashmiris to move from their lands is as moronic & hypocritical as asking British Indians to move elsewhere when they asked for their Right to decide their futures.

Otherwise you would've agreed to make LOC an international border long back.

Why would we agree to make the LOC an international border when we consider the lands on the otherside as Occupied Territory....?

Do you expect us to accept your Occupation ??

 

[scorpionx]

Everyone knows of kasshmir's strategic importance.

If we go by Zafarullah Khan's statement, this is the crux of the matter, precisely. All the other talks of liberty, independence etc etc are nothing but just croc tears. Also for the record, the authority of Sheikh Abdullah, who was an undisputed leader in the valley was never recognized (before the Americans pressure came)by our western friends who are championing people's mandate today.