You are contradicting yourself. You are saying west pakistani civilian getting killed in erstwhile East Pakistan was a bigger event by the measure of the volumes killed than the Bengali victims. but then you are concluding by condoling us that to secede, a nation has to pay higher price! so which one is true!?! I never imagined I'd have to hear that from a sane human being during my life time. This is like saying Pakistan army lets say was comprised of Bengali personnels alone(just the opposite of 71) and they invaded West Pakistan and fought a war for nine months against a non-militarized West pakistani public and then when they were defeated by India we have higher casualty rate for Bengali civilian than west pakistani civilian in west Pakistan where the Bengali civilian were less than 1% of the west pakistani population. I know that I am never going to claim such absurdity because that defies every single logic out there. I just don't understand why would any "Bangladesh commission"(i dont know where u got that name from) claim 2000 people came forward when the Pakistani Hamoudur Rahman commission after 1971 reported 26000 Bengali civilian dead (which is of course the edited Pakistani version to save some honour of the Pak army) and mass rape occurrence by the Pakistani army, and in one incident a top brass raping women when his troops were bombarded by the Indian and Bengali troops at the closing stage of the war! therefore, you are not only contradicting your logic of argument but you are coming up with vehemently false facts to justify your distorted views.
3 million Bengalis were killed. That's fact and figure. Your saying two thousand people came forward is the ugliest lie I have ever heard. 3 millions were killed and the information collected by us is authentic whether or not you believe it sitting back in Pakistan
The mass graves were not the only place where Pakistani army dumped the deads. Mass graves were mainly for the intellectuals, the students and hindus killed by the Pakistani army in 26th of March and 14-16 December. They often shot individuals dead near the rivers, which are plenty in Bangladesh. I can imagine that being from Pakistan it is not easy for you to imagine such geographical features.
Mukti bahini soldiers and officers were some of the highest trained military personnel of your army and some of them won the highest gallantry awards during 65 war against India. So you are saying you guys render highest awards to personnel who have objectionable morals?! This mukti bahini fighters along with Bengali civilian fighters were from the simplest of the homes of Bengal and most of them were not even involved in the politics. They went to the war against all odds, sometimes even not telling their mothers in case they stop them from going to the war for the fear of their sons' lives. These people had no dream but to liberate Bangladesh and her people. Why would they kill the same people who supported them?!!! Did you even take one second to contemplate the grave remarks you are making against mukti bahini here? The intellectuals were killed during 26th of March and 14 December mainly in Dhaka or major cities. All these times the cities, specially Dhaka were fully under Pakistan Army's control. Mukti bahini was not even formed in 26th of March and Bengali military and police personnel were busy saving their own lives without any weapon(as they were taken away by Pakistan Army before 26th March) against the brutal attack of Pakistan Army on the barracks containing sleeping Bengali soldiers. On December 14, Dhaka was under Pakistani occupation and Mukti bahini was with Indian army outside Dhaka preparing to enter Dhaka. So the atrocities were committed by Pakistan Army. Let the truth prevail.
Comparing Nazi with Pakistan Army is an insult to the greatest fighting machine of the 2nd world war. Russians, Americans raped more women in 2nd world war than the Nazis. German Wehrmacht was one of the better behaved army in the 2nd world war and their treatment of POW was the fairest. During 1st world war, famous Belgian women spying for the Entente told the world the honour with which they were treated in the German prison. Germans were the highest trained, the best man to man fighting force of the both world wars and I do not see the point of your comparing Pakistan army with them. Nazis did not even kill 6 million jews. that's a Zionist propaganda. That does not underestimate the number of civilians killed during 2nd world war though because jews were not the only victims of the world war. The total civilian dead during 5 years were 49 milion in world war two, not 6 million. so 7.35 million civilian died in every 9 months during 2nd world war. out of which 6 million/nine month were allied civilian casualty. so you see, in 1971 Pakistan army was much less brutal, if that relieves you a bit, by
only killing 3 million Bengalis, at less than half the rate of the Axis army in 2nd world war
Yes we have proofs of the ones who were killed. The bodies were in Bangladesh, at the place of their death, sometimes taken a further few kilometers from the place of the death by the Pakistani Army to bury them all in mass graves. According to Muslim rule, the dead must be buried as soon as possible. Sometimes they were thrown at the river where the fish had eaten the rotten flesh and sometimes dogs and foxes had eaten away the deads on the land. Pakistani army atrocities brought back the once extinct vulture species
Gyps indicus in Bangladesh to feed on the dead Bengali civilians lying on everywhere. There is not a single relative of mine who did not witness a dead body killed by Pakistani army during 71. Did you expect us to preserve the bones and dead bodies till now so that a sonicboom from Pakistan questions the validity of the truth 40 years after the incident and we ought to show him the bones? Well, I am sorry, we weren't that big of a visionary
Bengalis never betrayed anyone, let alone betraying themselves. It was always invaders, let it be, the wondering Arab opportunists, or the British colonialists or the Hindu landlord class. Mir Jafar was an arab who betrayed the nawab of Bengal. Pakistanis were the betrayers during 47-71 by pretending to be muslim brothers but doing the worst form of zulum , dishonesty and terror. There was nothing Islamic in the way West Pakistani treated Bengalis. Talking about BDR incident, BDR was not part of the army. SO Bangladesh Army were not betrayed by its own soldiers. Not a single Bangladesh Army soldier rebelled in the incident. But then in what face do you even talk about such incidents happening in Bangladesh when unspeakable things are happening in Pakistan?! how come Muslims are scared of going to the masjid in Islamic Republic of Pakistan nowadays?! how come a Pakistani muslim blows himself up in a jumma prayer?! what have your security forces done to the public that there is probably one attack on their training camp each week?! man from outside Pakistan, as a non-pakistani it is hard to grasp who is betraying whom in Pakistan! Actually you are right, we Bengalis were lucky to have got away from you guys in 1971 with just 3 million deads. Because even if it had to take the whole 70 million Bengalis to liberate Bangladesh from West Pakistan, we would have done it. It is Allah's rahmat that we got away with 3/70*100%=4.3% of our population earning the glory of being shaheed in the jihad against oppression. alhamdulillah
Part A
First of all, I had asked you the following 2 things:
1. Recognize the fact that mass killings were committed by the EPR, EBR and Muki bahini before the army action.
2. Provide the proof for 3 million killings.
You totally avoided both and kept on beating about the bushes in your 9 yard long meaningless post except for your half heartedly acceptance of 26000 killings as stated by the Hamood ur Rehamsn’s report. You seem to have a one track mind and can’t see the other side of the picture.
Secondly, you should be thankful to owner of this forum and all the moderators who are letting you rehash and dump all this nonsense without any proof and facts.
Now, let me show you the other side of the picture:
Initial thoughts:
While the killings were unfortunate but blaming it purely on the Pakistan Army alone is very one-sided. Pakistan Army in any case was a very late entrant in the drama.
By the time they took action, massive number of West Pakistani soldiers, their families, civilians and non Bengalis were already killed by Indian created and trained Mukti Bahini, deserters form the East Pakistan Rifles and the East Bengal Regiment. The killings even continued months after surrender of Pakistan Army.
Why are we forgetting brutal fascist Mukti Bahni, who call people in a ground and killing ceremony was done like a live show. It’s all available on the internet.
It’s easy to look back at the past and pass judgment, but life was hell for Pakistani solders and their supporters in Bangladesh. It does not matter how you perceive it, but you have to understand that it was a
treason and the punishment for treason is death. You can’t expect to cut off a country into two halves and expect from the Government not to do anything about it.
Killings of Pakistani and non Bengalis in East Pakistan
A quote from a Pakistani:
“I do hear and read lot about Bengalis being killed by either Pakistan army or their so called collaborators but what I failed to understand after 38 years how come no one ever mentions hundred of thousand non-Bengalis who were killed mercilessly by Bengalis. I was a child at that time and my family used to live in Dinajpur. I saw hundreds if not thousand of people killed including my own grand parents. My mother side of the family lost all seven family members. I am sure I am not the only person who used to live in Dinajpur’s New Town and still alive. I know of lot of people who can tell you the same story. Who started all this? Who were they? In my opinion since Bengalis were majority in than East Pakistan they were the one who started all this. Since Bengalis were no match to Pakistan army they and their agents killed thousands of people all over East Pakistan. In my own town thousand were killed from March 28th though April 13th 1971. I am sure lot of people can verify this as they were eye witness to all this horrific crimes. Arshad”
INTERNMENT CAMPS OF BANGLADESH by Loraine Mirza, an American born Journalist
Armed Awami League supporters, their ranks swelled by students and deserters from the army and police, went on a rampage in East Pakistan, in which tens of thousands of non-Bengalis,
at least 25,000 or more, were butchered between January and March 1971. The victims included the Urdu-speaking people (Biharis) as well as officials and their families from West Pakistan.
But the story of the Bihari Muslims is far more serious and tragic. Branded as 'traitors' by the Bengalis, they were tormented, terrorized and shoved into 66 squalid camps in Bangladesh after the Pakistan army surrendered to the invading Indian army on December 16, 1971.
It is interesting to note that the same people who were complaining of being victims of a genocide, started themselves a horrifying genocide against helpless people called Biharis.
Now back to some of the allegations of mass killing and rapes by the Pakistan Army.
Allegation of Mass Killings of Bengalis:
US State Department conference
The historian branch of the State Department held a two-day conference on June 28 and 29 on US policy in South Asia between 1961 and 1972, inviting scholars from India, Pakistan and Bangladesh to express their views on the declassified documents.
During the seminar, Bangladeshi scholars acknowledged that their official figure of more than 3 million killed during the military action was not authentic.
They said that the original figure was close to 300,000, which was wrongly translated from Bengali into English as three million.
Shamsher M. Chowdhury, the Bangladesh ambassador in Washington who was commissioned in the Pakistan Army in 1969 but had joined his country’s war of liberation in 1971, acknowledged that Bangladesh alone cannot correct this mistake. Instead, he suggested that Pakistan and Bangladesh form a joint commission to investigate the 1971 disaster and prepare a report.
Almost all scholars agreed that the real figure was somewhere between 26,000, as reported by the Hamoodur Rahman Commission, and not three million, the official figure put forward by Bangladesh and India.
William J. Drummond, Los Angeles Times Staff writer
William J. Drummond, who later became Professor of Journalism at Berkeley, debunked stories about the genocide of three million Bengalis, a lie endlessly repeated even by Mujib.
And did you read the post # 180 and 193?
Allegation of Mass Rapes:
Prof Sarmila Bose, an Indian academic
She told the seminar that allegations of Pakistani army personnel raping Bengali women were grossly exaggerated.
INTERNMENT CAMPS OF BANGLADESH by Loraine Mirza
The allegation of mass rapes of one million Bengali women by 83,000 Pakistani soldiers, impregnating 200,000 in a matter of a few weeks, was circulated endlessly.
How an army in the midst of an insurgency had time for such activity is mind-boggling.
Loraine Mirza debunks these myths admirably.
When she arrived in Bangladesh in 1986, she found abortion clinics, set up in 1972 ostensibly to cater to the rape victims, were still doing brisk business. Several clinics were opened by an American, Dr Harvey Carmen, who turned out to be not a medical doctor but a sociologist, as Ms Mirza reports (p.57).
Women allegedly 'raped' by Pakistani soldiers in 1971 still needed abortions 15 years later!
There were accusations that were reported in the world wide western press and media of alleged rapes by the Pakistan Army. However, it has been proven without a doubt by meself, in interviewing thousands on both sides, and corroborated by William Drummond of the Los Angles Times,
that this was gross exaggerations.
Professor Sarmila Bose
The most scientific of all proofs has come from a Bengali, herself. Professor Sarmila Bose, from George Washington State University, USA, has done research on the 1971 War.
In all of the incidents involving the Pakistan army in the case-studies, the armed forces were found not to have raped women. While this cannot be extrapolated beyond the specific incidents in this study, it is significant, as in many cases the allegation of rape was made along with allegations of killing in prior verbal discussions or in some cases even in written form in the Bengali literature. However, when Bengali eye-witnesses, participants and survivors of the incidents were interviewed they testified to the violence and killings, but also testified
that no rape had taken place.
Another quote
"Talking to people on Bangladesh, 1971 gets very very circular after a bit. It boils down to this.
There is no evidence of mass genocide or mass raping, though I have no doubt some war crimes were committed, since they happen in any war, especially if discipline breaks down in the ranks or you have some undisciplined soldiers. This is not at all uncommon. You will find every single war has had breaks of the Geneva Conventions. It's as much to do with training a soldier to kill and manipulate their minds if need be so that they're filled with hatred for their enemy that will cause some to act out like that."
Liers Exposed:
Then there are all the reporters like Aubrey Menon, the Indian-Irishman, or Simon Dring, the reporter who got a nice job owning his own Bangladeshi TV channel, financed by the Awami League;
he's the one who reported all the mass killings of Bangladeshis.
These can hardly be called creditable witnesses. I know that war crimes happened, but none presents any evidence for the scale of war crimes you claim occurred. It's all just empty words until you find some solid proof.
Key actors
The most important fact is that the three main characters died brutal un-natural deaths (lets call it divine justice)i.e. Sh.mujib-ur-rahman, mr.zulfiqar ali bhutto and mrs. Indira gandhi.
It did not take long for retribution to come from the Providence to avenge this horrific bloodshed in which several thousands (and not Millions for God’s sake) lost their lives. All the key players met unexpected deaths very soon by their own people.
Sheikh Mujib Rehman and his all family members except Sheikh Hasina were eliminated by his own army in their diamond house.
Indira Gandhi and her two sons Sanjay and Rajiv died violently.
Zulfiqar Bhutto got hanged, his eldest son Murtaza got murdered and younger son Shahnawaz died of poisoning. His daughter Benazir was killed in a suicide attack.
And lastly, as a Pakistani I say this unequivocally that I am truly happy for Bangladeshi’s for getting their deserved freedom.
In the end I shall request all readers to offer a little prayer for all those people who lost their precious lives to this insane conflict.
This was all from printed media. In part B, I will share some of my personal observations.