Battles, Airstrikes in Pakistan Kill 250

[Tiki Tam Tam]

ASim,

Nothing is lost.

FATA is not lost.

Wars and insurgency are not issues that can be solved in a day or years. It takes time.

All will be well.

Agnostic states that it is not the Pashtuns.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Accept it and be done with this thread, if that is what you want!


Have you a better solution?

Let's discuss that.

It is easy to damn those who have to implement, like the govt and the army!

Sitting in air conditioned comfort is far different from being in the dust and grime of reality!

What I want doesn't matter, but a departure from utilizing terminology that generalizes/stereotypes would be most welcome.

I am not damning the military or the government. I completely supported their "peace deals" with the militants when they were first enacted. I understood their strategy for "retaliating only when attacked" in the aftermath of the LM. Even now I leave it up to the Army to do what it thinks is best, hence my support of the air strikes with precision weapons, though frustration with the slow pace does boil over once in a while.

My comment to Bull was a defense of the PA's tactics, by putting into perspective their strategy before the latest offensive, not a condemnation.

If the GoP decides to change tactics once again, I have no choice but to support them in that, I am not the one on the ground with a first hand view of the situation.

Gen. Waheed Arshad was on TV today talking about how the lasting solution to this will only be a political one, and that military force is only a means to cause the dynamics to change, to allow for that "political solution". The army seems to be cognizant of the dangers of using overwhelming force alone.

Agnostic states that it is not the Pashtuns.

The majority of the militants are "Pashtun" - they are not "The Pashtun".

NWFP is not in flames - the Pashtun living there and elsewhere in Pakistan are not up in arms. You may rest assured.

 

[roadrunner]

You raise a good point AM. The Indians like to portray it as a Pashtun vs Islamabad battle, little realizing that Pashtuns are the most anti Indian Pakistanis about (Myself being one example ). It often gets on my nerves when the radicals portray themselves as pro Pashtun (as if this means anti Army or anti Islamabad..our good friend db1 being a prime example). A large percentage of Army officers and foot soldiers are Pashtuns (real ones, not the internet type).

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

RR,

If the Pastuns are most anti Indians amongst the Pakistanis, then obviously it is a canard that RAW is operating amongst the most anti Indian of the Pakistanis!

Agnostic,

It is obvious that all Pashtuns cannot be anti govt or rebels.

 

[Bull]

For gods sake, even Wikipedia offers better and more accurate language than you and Salim. The pashtun are all over Pakistan, and the fighting is going on with a small number of residents of the Tribal belt, not even all, so it is completely inaccurate to refer to the militants as "pashtun"..

Ok whoever it is.

With respect to the bombings, and the potential for a cessation in dialog, that has already happened. The FC and PA has been pussyfooting around the militants, reacting only when attacked (primarily the FC), negotiations with the militants have been carried out, and the only thing that has happened is that they have gotten bolder..

So did i say anything different. I questioned the use of such firepower. Isnt this the same Mushraff who had taken exception to air attacks by NATO/USAF in Afghanistan?

And regrding PA and FC pussyfooting, the sole blamelies with Islamabad. How can the PA refuse to do what Islamabad asks it to do? If this ataitude continues no aerial attack can improve the situation but worsen it. Even more PA would have lots of disgruntled soldiers and officers who might turn their ire on Mushraff.

This isn't a simple "give me roads, schools and hospitals" demand - what is being fought for is the imposition of an ideology whose cruelty, if imposed, would render minuscule, the damage resulting from this war..

Agree.

The Taliban have articulated their demands -a withdrawal of "foreign forces and their puppets" and " an imposition of an Islamic constitution" which they just released. Reading the salient points of that document leaves no doubt that it is a demand that must never be accepted.

And you say PA and FC are not dealing with these extremists the way they should.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Ok whoever it is.

"terrorists" or "militants", will suffice.

So did i say anything different. I questioned the use of such firepower. Isnt this the same Mushraff who had taken exception to air attacks by NATO/USAF in Afghanistan?

The army's position is that it was firing on legitimate targets, a claim that seems to have been substantiated during the recent "jirga" with the militants, during which 50 "foreign fighters, among 200 militants, were confirmed to have died. It has also been validated by the the request from two of the villages where the action took place who now want PA protection, since the militants were firing from their homes, and therefore drawing PA fire.

A military statement said elders from two villages near Mir Ali had sought army protection “because militants use their compounds, which are ultimately targeted by retaliating security forces drawing in and inflicting collateral damage on civilians”.

50 foreign militants killed: Gen Arshad said the jirga which met military authorities told them that the 200 militants killed in ‘Operation al-Mizan’ included 50 foreigners, 25 of them Uzbeks and the rest from Tajikistan, Afghanistan and of Arab descent.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

With respect to Musharraf criticizing NATO bombings, I believe he was referring to attacks that took place solely on the suspicion of people being Taliban - such as the wedding that was bombed etc.

And regrding PA and FC pussyfooting, the sole blamelies with Islamabad. How can the PA refuse to do what Islamabad asks it to do? If this ataitude continues no aerial attack can improve the situation but worsen it. Even more PA would have lots of disgruntled soldiers and officers who might turn their ire on Mushraff.

And you say PA and FC are not dealing with these extremists the way they should.

I clarified this in my last post - if you would actually bother to read the posts.

 

[Spring Onion]

You mean Pashtuns would be ready for talks after such a high handed approach by Islamabad? Even more ferocious air attacks by USAF hasnt done anything to control extremists in Afghanistan and Iraq..

I was talking about carrying Pashtuns on board in Afghanistan.
In case of our tribal areas, it is not high handed approach as
1. The army pickets were targted by militants and those who are held hostage by them, hence the airattacks were made gainst them.

2. after two days of the clashes the Tribal jirga held talks with the administeration and a ceasfire was observed.
3. the jirga composed of Tribal elders also condemned attacks on Army as well as killing of civilians (which indeed occured and we can not deny that).

I seriously doubt the intention of Islamabad in going with such an approach as Mushraff himself has in earlier cases took exception to air attacks as a way of dealing with extremists.

You have the right to think whatever you want but on our part

Islamabad had been saying and it did held talks with the area elders and there is no difference between tribals and the government there as being Pakistani citizens they are ready to safegaurd the frontiers.

 

[IceCold]

One thing that is bothering me here is that how can we predict and criticize the actions of PA by just sitting at our offices or home and specially my question to indian members here who are not even part of it in anyway, they are sitting in a completely different country yet criticizing.
As for pashtuns, no one can deny their sincerity with pakistan and we have already seen it on a number of times. Same stands for other tribal leaders who actually form group of armed people that takes action against these militants. So no matter what indians say, the fact of the matter is that the loyality of tribal and pashtuns is 200% with pakistan.
Coming back to original topic, if PA decided that airstrike was necessary, it defentinetly had kept all the aspects of it in mind, how can one say it was not a correct decision. And if we look at the statics, it was a successful strike. What now GOP needs to do is, initate an aggressive approach, like the one turkey is going for. We know who's involved in antistate elements from afghanistan, whos supporting these elements, all we need now is strike them, musharraf would defentinely need to show some gutts here, leave the diplomacy back as its useless and strike where its needed more. Bottom line we must ask PAF to strike in afghanistan.

 

[Bull]

You have the right to think whatever you want but on our part

Islamabad had been saying and it did held talks with the area elders and there is no difference between tribals and the government there as being Pakistani citizens they are ready to safegaurd the frontiers.

After such a blitzkrieg nobody expects Islamabad to say ' Village elders took exception'.

 

[Bashira]

Nice propaganda.
They did same propaganda in case of Lal Mosque that there are foreign fighters having latest weapons, but not a single foreign firghter found there, instead they killed thousands of innocent children there.

Even soldiers fighting in those areas admitted that Busharraf Army is killing mostly civilians, instead of millitants.

Definilty you will write any thing in your favor in your articles, like rebelionism etc. But what about before Musharraf? They never tried to hurt Pak.

 

[Bull]

One thing that is bothering me here is that how can we predict and criticize the actions of PA by just sitting at our offices or home and specially my question to indian members here who are not even part of it in anyway, they are sitting in a completely different country yet criticizing.
As for pashtuns, no one can deny their sincerity with pakistan and we have already seen it on a number of times. Same stands for other tribal leaders who actually form group of armed people that takes action against these militants. So no matter what indians say, the fact of the matter is that the loyality of tribal and pashtuns is 200% with pakistan.
Coming back to original topic, if PA decided that airstrike was necessary, it defentinetly had kept all the aspects of it in mind, how can one say it was not a correct decision. And if we look at the statics, it was a successful strike. What now GOP needs to do is, initate an aggressive approach, like the one turkey is going for. We know who's involved in antistate elements from afghanistan, whos supporting these elements, all we need now is strike them, musharraf would defentinely need to show some gutts here, leave the diplomacy back as its useless and strike where its needed more. Bottom line we must ask PAF to strike in afghanistan.

We are happy your govt acted atlast on the extremists. But seing what such excessive action has done previously we are skeptical, thats it. Whatvere happens in NWFP its you who will bear the consequences not us.

 

[roadrunner]

RR,

If the Pastuns are most anti Indians amongst the Pakistanis, then obviously it is a canard that RAW is operating amongst the most anti Indian of the Pakistanis!

I don't think RAW is operating anywhere in the NWFP. That's not to say that RAW doesn't have a hand in the Baloch situation.

 

[roadrunner]

We are happy your govt acted atlast on the extremists. But seing what such excessive action has done previously we are skeptical, thats it. Whatvere happens in NWFP its you who will bear the consequences not us.

The government acting in the tribals areas won't affect much in Kashmir. Kashmir is purely from within, Kashmiri people themselves. The trouble in the NWFP is due to the foreigners, not the Pashtun people rebelling against Pakistani rule. That's the main difference between the two.

Nice propaganda.
They did same propaganda in case of Lal Mosque that there are foreign fighters having latest weapons, but not a single foreign firghter found there, instead they killed thousands of innocent children there.

Even soldiers fighting in those areas admitted that Busharraf Army is killing mostly civilians, instead of millitants.

Definilty you will write any thing in your favor in your articles, like rebelionism etc. But what about before Musharraf? They never tried to hurt Pak.

You're saying the foreigners arent involved in any violence?

Nation & World | Pakistani tribes fight alleged al-Qaida allies | Seattle Times Newspaper

Lots of other articles. It's a known fact they are there. To deny it would be silly.

Even in Lal Masjid, this radicalism has only just sparked up. Is it just a coincidence that foreign fighters have been found and suicide bombers/radicals demanding Shariah appeared at Lal Masjid, or is it something to do with the fact that the foreigners are behind the violence to some degree?

 

[Spring Onion]

Nice propaganda.
They did same propaganda in case of Lal Mosque that there are foreign fighters having latest weapons,.

Well if they did not have weapons than i think they were firing and fighting with flowers.
The gas masks and land mines, the automatic weapons were all made of flowers.

And indeed there were foriegners the elemints of Baitullah Mehsud.
If any of whether i dont have followed the coming out of students in the startng days of the siege but i did watched carefully,
There was one man who was an Afghan National that too from Northern part he was not Pashtun and that man was atired in sports outfit with having Cigarete in his pocket.

Now i dont know how on earth no body noticed that.

but not a single foreign firghter found there, instead they killed thousands of innocent children there..

First of All you need to correct your counting or if you think the number of dead you had mentioned here is correct than kindly provide information about where these thousands were burried

scondly from charred bodies how can you recognize the foreigners.

Even soldiers fighting in those areas admitted that Busharraf Army is killing mostly civilians, instead of millitants..

He is Musharraf not Busharraf so Mods should take note of your slang here.

AS far your claim about the statement of soldiers saying that please provide proof.

Definilty you will write any thing in your favor in your articles, like rebelionism etc. But what about before Musharraf? They never tried to hurt Pak.

Before Musharraf they were not hurting us because they were not hurt, now as they are running out of space they are doing all what they can in desparation.

 

[dabong1]

A sombre Eid celebrated in Waziristan



Tribesmen avoid large mosques; cleric blames Musharraf for killings

By Mushtaq Yusufzai & Haji Yaseen

PESHAWAR/MIRANSHAH: Fearing air attacks by the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) fighter aircraft, tribesmen of the Waziristan agencies on Friday avoided Eid prayers in big mosques and Eidgahs, local tribesmen said.

Eid prayers were offered in village mosques instead of the main Eidgah or Tableeghi Markaz. Residents said the Eid prayers could not be offered in any mosque in Mir Aliís populous villages like Musaki, Hurmaz, Esori, Mullagan, Ipi, Haiderkhel, Khushali, Mir Ali and Zeeraki.

Sources told The News that these villages had been completely vacated after Mondayís severe bombing by the fighter aircraft. Contrary to their previous practice, residents of both the tribal agencies observed Eidul Fitr on Friday as per the traditions of neighbouring Afghanistan, which follows the Saudi governmentís decision on moon sighting. Previously, they used to abide by the verdict of a Peshawar-based Ruet body, which usually meets at Masjid Qasim Ali Khan.

Qari Muhammad Roman, the Imam at the main Miranshah Jamia Masjid, had earlier announced to offer Eid prayers at the Tableeghi Markaz. However, the announcement could not be materialised for 90 per cent of the local population had fled to Bannu district due to the recent air strikes on their villages.

Hundreds of people from both the tribal agencies, working in other cities of the country, could not manage to spend the Eid day with their family members because all in-and-out routes to the tribal agency, including Bannu-Miranshah, Miranshah-Razmak, Miranshah-Ghulam Khan, Miranshah-Dattakhel and Thall-Mir Ali remained closed for the last six days.

AFP adds: Some 10,000 tribesmen gathered for the Eid prayers in Miranshah, where days of clashes earlier this week left around 250 people dead. Nearby Mir Ali, the second largest town in North Waziristan, where most of the fighting was centred, was almost deserted, remaining residents told AFP by telephone.

In his sermon, Maulvi Mohammed Roman blamed President Pervez Musharraf for civilian deaths in recent clashes. ìThis Eid our hearts are sad. Our sisters and brothers and children have died,î he said. ìOur people were bombed on Musharrafís orders and innocent people were murdered and thousands had to leave their homes during Ramazan and Eid,î Roman said.

A sombre Eid celebrated in Waziristan