Basic Training?

[PakSniper]

I see. Stopping power in what sense though?

So 7.62 mm can be used in a different situation more effectively without worrying about loosing ammunition. Lets assume in a defensive position with access to lots of ammunition if needed.

Stopping power is used to describe the ability of a particular weapon to stop the actions of an individual by means of penetrating ballistic injury. Stopping is caused not by the force of the bullet, but by the damaging effects of the bullet blood loss, etc. The more immediate effects can result when a bullet strikes a critical organ such as the heart or the spine or brain. (or virtually dead in some 7.56mm round cases).

On the Army side of the house, 5.56mm allows for lighter loads and greater quantitity to be carried by an average infantryman. The 5.56 round is not as dense as the 7.62 but is more than enough to maim and cause injury to the target in case its not killed, an injured colleague poses more logistical challenges than a dead one. However as newer weapons of the 5.56 caliber are developed, the velocity of the round will further increase the impact of the round. (From PakDef)

From my knowledge, in a defensive position it's better to have the 5.56mm cause you can keep the enemy combatant at bay before, the air strikes or reinforcements can be called it. Also, know that use of the smaller round it's also vital to hit places of bodily function to render the enemy useless or he will fight back (but it also depends on the range the close quarter combat is taking place). This can be beneficial to capture the combatant to get more intelligence out of him.

As for the 7.56mm:

It can be effectively kill an enemy combatant, not many people live to tell the tale after being hit by it. A short story I can give is about my friend who was in a defensive position (Private. Christoper Scuba), in an alley in Iraq:

While he was bent down and on his knees' next to a Humvee wearing a bullet proof vest, he was struck next on his kidney, the impact of the round actually penetrated the vest making an (1) inch of a hole on his body, causing his kidney to malfunction that he has to get replaced (or) removed, but benefit of this round is it's awesome fire-power, which can cause alot of damage and basically render the enemy obsolete rather than just causing minimal damage to him. With this round some technicals can be taken out which are lightly armored to not being armored at all. (Whats even more deadly is the armour piercing version of the 7.56mm round)

 

[Keysersoze]

I see. Stopping power in what sense though?

So 7.62 mm can be used in a different situation more effectively without worrying about loosing ammunition. Lets assume in a defensive position with access to lots of ammunition if needed.

I mean it will stop the target (incapacitate or kill) There was a story (which i have read and heard from different areas) from the Falklands war where a Royal marine fired four shots at a Argentinian with his M-16 (The marines use them sometimes) and hit him. Despite being hit the Argentinian fired one shot with his FN-FAL (7-62) and severely wounded the marine.

 

[niaz]

You can carry lots more ammunition. Since there is a lot of "suppression" (keeping the others guys head down instead of shooting back at you while you assualt element goes in and clears them out) going on in firefights you go through it very quickly. (I went through 300 hundred rounds in 35 minutes once.)

The 7.62 has LOTS more stopping power though.........

Nato's initial standard bore was 7mm. I understand that PA G-3 was rebored to 7.62 to enable it to accept the 0.303 calibre round. Why don't we go back to 7mm. Less weight than 7.62 ( if you add up say 200 rounds) and also sufficient stopping power.

I have a suspician that switch to 5.56mm in Nato was also a result of the weight of the body armour.Total weight carried by infantry man increased, switch to 5.56 mm, more rounds and also less weight. Am I shooting in the dark Keyseroze??

When you fight a defencive war, supply lines are not stretched to such an extent that carrying more ammo is of paramount importance. Think in our environment stopping power has greater value than carrying more rounds.

 

[Keysersoze]

Nato's initial standard bore was 7mm. I understand that PA G-3 was rebored to 7.62 to enable it to accept the 0.303 calibre round. Why don't we go back to 7mm. Less weight than 7.62 ( if you add up say 200 rounds) and also sufficient stopping power.

I have a suspician that switch to 5.56mm in Nato was also a result of the weight of the body armour.Total weight carried by infantry man increased, switch to 5.56 mm, more rounds and also less weight. Am I shooting in the dark Keyseroze??

When you fight a defencive war, supply lines are not stretched to such an extent that carrying more ammo is of paramount importance. Think in our environment stopping power has greater value than carrying more rounds.

You will still have to carry the ammunition on your person even if you have plenty of it near by (you can't resupply until the firefight is over and you are in a reorg situation). I carried 9-10 magazines with additional ammunition in my rucksack.The trick is to make sure that the weapons all use the same ammo type so that it simplifies the supply chain. So if they go for a 5-56 weapon then the squad light machine gun should be the same calibre. I don't think the body armour issue would play a part. I have been told that the combat load during Falklands was approx 200 (10x20)rounds (plus whatever else you had loose or boxed) with the lighter round you carry pretty much the same weight.You just carry more of the ammunition (300....10x30 plus whatever you have loose or boxed)

The G-3 was always a 7-62 rifle so I don't think it was rebored. there are 5-56 versions out there.

Dragonking I don't know about your friend. But I doubt he was hit in the ceramic plate reinforced area of his armour.

 

[PakSniper]

Dragonking I don't know about your friend. But I doubt he was hit in the ceramic plate reinforced area of his armour.

Don't know, he never really went into much detail. All he tells me is he doesn't want to talk about it or mention it. (Unless he's in the mood to talk about it).

Possible he bent down and that place wasn't covered, and thus the round was able to hit him.

 

[Keysersoze]

The PK-8 probably looks like the HK 33........

It will be easy to build with the facilities for the G-3 and training on the new rifle will be fairlly easy as there is a lot of similarity between the two rifles.

 

[MastanKhan]

Webby,

Here is my two bits. In actual combat, the acuracy of a rifle round is upto 300yards at the max. In this radius, the 5.56 is as close to as it can get to the 7.62 round. You don't want to shot with either one of them. They are both deadly within this range. How about the AK 47 round---there are horror stories about the exit wounds.

Now, how about high velocity rounds for the 5.56. Now your level of destruction to the human body is going to get a force multiplier. A high velocity smaller round does terrible damage to the meat, muscle and bone. Whereas the heavier bullet will maintain its integrity upon impact and pass through the body, a smaller high speed round may disintegrate upon impact and may cause tremendous damage to the body.

Some of you who visit defencetalk forum may have read an article a year after the iraq war----some defence contractors testing very high velocity small calibre rounds in iraq----if I recollect correctly, the body was almost cut in half with massive interior damage.

Now here is my personal experience while hunting mule deer in utah in 1986.
A 120 grain round from a 30-06 has a muzzle velocity of 31-3200 ft/. This buck freezes 20 ft behind our suv. I get out, take aim and shoot. It is a 45 deg shot---entry from stomach going towards chest cavity. When I got to the deer, it was on its side, I turned it over. There was no exit wound. When I gutted it, the chest cavity had something like minced meet in it, there were no lungs per say in their natural form.

What I was shocked for was, that there were two deer who stood next to each other, when I shot the first, I aimed for the bullet to go through the first one and hit the second deer----I was shooting to kill two mule deer with one shot. You know the story of the high speed exploding bullet now. I still can't believe my hard luck. I should have taken the .308.

Some of the newer rifles coming with calibres of .17 have muzzle velocities of plus 4000 ft/. Add soft point to it and trust me, one would not want to get hit with one of those shots at close range.

 

[Asian.Century]

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