Bangladesh court convicts UK reporter of contempt for questioning 1971 toll claim

[ejaz007]

This topic keeps on coming to life every now and then. A book worth reading about the topic:

 

[khair_ctg]

The 3 million figure is central to Bangladeshi identity. They want to prove beyond anything else that they were severely mistreated and that 1971 occurred due to extreme persecution. I believe Bengal was mistreated but the 3 million toll is too high and incorrect. Bangladesh should be open to human rights agencies and journalists.

Also both Bengal and Pakistan have moved beyond the phase where we held grudges. The number 1 enemy for Bangladesh now is India.

Also Pakistan and Bangladesh united would have made a population of 320 million, the largest muslim nation in the world. By tearing us apart India severely weakened Islam. Not to say west Pakistanis did well. We should have given Bengalis more rights and their language. But again during the introduction of facts and figures certain biases crept their way to the top. The 3 million figure is just rubbish.

maybe about 30,000 have died, including many patriotic Bengalis and Mohajirs killed by Indian trained elements. 'who' suffered the most is Muslim Bengal. Dec 16 1971 was a time when Muslim Bengal came under Indian control and Indian-supported minority fringe elements. this rooted out any trace of Muslim heritage and the timeless social-economic-cultural aspirations of the Muslim community in the land. in order to keep Bangladesh a non-Muslim country, a constant vilification of a Muslim movement/system of this land (past or present) needs to be done. this "3 million killed" myth and the myth of "Bengali secularists" suffering at the hands of "Punjabi Muslims" serves that purpose

The 3 million figure is central to Bangladeshi identity. They want to prove beyond anything else that they were severely mistreated and that 1971 occurred due to extreme persecution. I believe Bengal was mistreated but the 3 million toll is too high and incorrect. Bangladesh should be open to human rights agencies and journalists.

Also both Bengal and Pakistan have moved beyond the phase where we held grudges. The number 1 enemy for Bangladesh now is India.

Also Pakistan and Bangladesh united would have made a population of 320 million, the largest muslim nation in the world. By tearing us apart India severely weakened Islam. Not to say west Pakistanis did well. We should have given Bengalis more rights and their language. But again during the introduction of facts and figures certain biases crept their way to the top. The 3 million figure is just rubbish.

United Pakistan was a country of Bengalis. if any one could give more rights to Bengalis, it was Bengalis themselves who could give rights. a significant number of Bengali PMs and presidents served between 1947 to 71. Bengali was unfairly made national language in 1956. and Urdu has existed in Bengal for a long time. West Pakistanis made grave mistakes by giving in to demands of extreme Bengali leftists. those leftists went anti-Urdu not because they were Bengalis but because they were anti-Muslim, and somehow saw Urdu as a language of Bengali Muslim aristocracy

 

[fallstuff]

I met Bergman's wife Sara Hossain a few times, years ago. BTW her father Dr. Kamal Hossain drafted the Constitution of Bangladesh back in 1972-73 in Mujib's time when he was the Law Minister and Foreign Minister.

Nice payback by Hasina.

 

[Bong]

maybe about 30,000 have died, including many patriotic Bengalis and Mohajirs killed by Indian trained elements. 'who' suffered the most is Muslim Bengal. Dec 16 1971 was a time when Muslim Bengal came under Indian control and Indian-supported minority fringe elements. this rooted out any trace of Muslim heritage and the timeless social-economic-cultural aspirations of the Muslim community in the land. in order to keep Bangladesh a non-Muslim country, a constant vilification of a Muslim movement/system of this land (past or present) needs to be done. this "3 million killed" myth and the myth of "Bengali secularists" suffering at the hands of "Punjabi Muslims" serves that purpose


United Pakistan was a country of Bengalis. if any one could give more rights to Bengalis, it was Bengalis themselves who could give rights. a significant number of Bengali PMs and presidents served between 1947 to 71. Bengali was unfairly made national language in 1956. and Urdu has existed in Bengal for a long time. West Pakistanis made grave mistakes by giving in to demands of extreme Bengali leftists. those leftists went anti-Urdu not because they were Bengalis but because they were anti-Muslim, and somehow saw Urdu as a language of Bengali Muslim aristocracy

Urdu speakers were the curse of this land and we enjoy your extinction

 

[Md Akmal]

I met Bergman's wife Sara Hossain a few times, years ago. BTW her father Dr. Kamal Hossain drafted the Constitution of Bangladesh back in 1972-73 in Mujib's time when he was the Law Minister and Foreign Minister.

Nice payback by Hasina.

@ Barrister Sara Hossain is the daughter of Dr Kamal Hossain. Her mother is from Sindh.

 

[SQ8]

Urdu speakers were the curse of this land and we enjoy your extinction

All things considered. It was the Urdu Speakers who were much more sympathetic to the Bengali plight than any other "speakers" from Pakistan. It was them who helmed the Independence movement along with Bengalis before 1947. Take them out, and you'd be sitting inside India today.

 

[Saiful Islam]

The 3 million figure is central to Bangladeshi identity. They want to prove beyond anything else that they were severely mistreated and that 1971 occurred due to extreme persecution. I believe Bengal was mistreated but the 3 million toll is too high and incorrect. Bangladesh should be open to human rights agencies and journalists.

Also both Bengal and Pakistan have moved beyond the phase where we held grudges. The number 1 enemy for Bangladesh now is India.

Also Pakistan and Bangladesh united would have made a population of 320 million, the largest muslim nation in the world. By tearing us apart India severely weakened Islam. Not to say west Pakistanis did well. We should have given Bengalis more rights and their language. But again during the introduction of facts and figures certain biases crept their way to the top. The 3 million figure is just rubbish.

Good perspective. The 3 million figure has caused some Bangadeshis to absolutely hate Pakistan and Pakistanis.

 

[474474]

All things considered. It was the Urdu Speakers who were much more sympathetic to the Bengali plight than any other "speakers" from Pakistan. It was them who helmed the Independence movement along with Bengalis before 1947. Take them out, and you'd be sitting inside India today.

I'm pretty sure we were the ones easiest to kill by the terrorist separatists too

 

[haviZsultan]

maybe about 30,000 have died, including many patriotic Bengalis and Mohajirs killed by Indian trained elements. 'who' suffered the most is Muslim Bengal. Dec 16 1971 was a time when Muslim Bengal came under Indian control and Indian-supported minority fringe elements. this rooted out any trace of Muslim heritage and the timeless social-economic-cultural aspirations of the Muslim community in the land. in order to keep Bangladesh a non-Muslim country, a constant vilification of a Muslim movement/system of this land (past or present) needs to be done. this "3 million killed" myth and the myth of "Bengali secularists" suffering at the hands of "Punjabi Muslims" serves that purpose


United Pakistan was a country of Bengalis. if any one could give more rights to Bengalis, it was Bengalis themselves who could give rights. a significant number of Bengali PMs and presidents served between 1947 to 71. Bengali was unfairly made national language in 1956. and Urdu has existed in Bengal for a long time. West Pakistanis made grave mistakes by giving in to demands of extreme Bengali leftists. those leftists went anti-Urdu not because they were Bengalis but because they were anti-Muslim, and somehow saw Urdu as a language of Bengali Muslim aristocracy

But it was also our fault. We didn't have equal percentage of Bengalis in the armed forces, investment in Bengal was low and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was eager to sieze authority and threatened to break the legs of Bengalis who voted. We are divided brothers and though biases took place in Bengal where untrue figures were construed to be true there was more bias on this side rather than yours.

I still consider Bengalis Pakistanis. We made huge mistakes. If we had given in to the demand and points of mujib ur rehman we would at least be together regardless and would be 350 million muslims in one nation, the largest Islamic country in the world. We allowed India to play us by not giving our people rights. His 6 points entailed nothing wrong, in fact were negotiable and he won a majority. Also it was very similar to Jinnah's 14 points which would keep the nation united.

I want to apologize for any perceived wrong we might have done. Most of all the breakup of Bengal was a slap to the face of Jinnah. He made a country with us together, it is an insult that we are away from each other now. I promise I will do everything in my power to bring the two sides together again.

Also are you sure Bengali was made the national language in 56. Because I have found no source that claims it.

All things considered. It was the Urdu Speakers who were much more sympathetic to the Bengali plight than any other "speakers" from Pakistan. It was them who helmed the Independence movement along with Bengalis before 1947. Take them out, and you'd be sitting inside India today.

I do not agree with this. Having Urdu as the national language and refusal to have allowed Bengali equal rights was in urdu speakers interest. Our quest to impose our language onto others without even once thinking that the country was run unfairly with us having the main power was as much part of the problem as was Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto's attempt to crush the Bengalis and suppress their right to elect the man of their choosing. Who speaks urdu? Urdu speakers as they call themselves. So who's interest was it that urdu be imposed on others?

I am myself born an Urdu speaker and there is immense racism in our khandaan. Bengalis are called machi eaters among other things. This racism was a major part of why I am sick of our entire race. The inability to respect others and love other ethnic groups in Pakistan is a fundamental flaw in our community.

What makes us think there won't be a new Bengal? Theres a Syed Jamaluddin in every community today. How do we know there won't be a division like Bengal once again when we have the same mindset- of us Muhajirs against the world. What if for some reason someone takes the right of us to vote for the same party that has produced target killing and bhatta khori. Won't we do the same thing? Wall chalkings already say we want a divided Sindh with a province for ourselves despite being the richest ethnic group in Pakistan.

We must look at our voting preferences, our way of thinking, how we see others and we will find a problem in ourselselves more than anyone else- this exercise is important for each ethnic identity because ethnicity today defines us a lot. What if a Mujib Ur Rehman rises amongst us? We must be beyond the ethnic problem if we are to create a united and strong nation. We shouldn't start crying the moment Zulfiqar Mirza gives a speech when our politicians give similar speeches all the time.

We think we are the only ones deserving of rights ad despite having 13000 ruppees gdp per capita more than the Punjabis who are at second place in economic power we are demanding more and more.

 

[SQ8]

I do not agree with this. Having Urdu as the national language and refusal to have allowed Bengali equal rights was in urdu speakers interest. Our quest to impose our language onto others without even once thinking that the country was run unfairly with us having the main power was as much part of the problem as was Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto's attempt to crush the Bengalis and suppress their right to elect the man of their choosing. Who speaks urdu? Urdu speakers as they call themselves. So who's interest was it that urdu be imposed on others?

I am myself born an Urdu speaker and there is immense racism in our khandaan. Bengalis are called machi eaters among other things. This racism was a major part of why I am sick of our entire race. The inability to respect others and love other ethnic groups in Pakistan is a fundamental flaw in our community.

What makes us think there won't be a new Bengal? Theres a Syed Jamaluddin in every community today. How do we know there won't be a division like Bengal once again when we have the same mindset- of us Muhajirs against the world. What if for some reason someone takes the right of us to vote for the same party that has produced target killing and bhatta khori. Won't we do the same thing? Wall chalkings already say we want a divided Sindh with a province for ourselves despite being the richest ethnic group in Pakistan.

We must look at our voting preferences, our way of thinking, how we see others and we will find a problem in ourselselves more than anyone else- this exercise is important for each ethnic identity because ethnicity today defines us a lot. What if a Mujib Ur Rehman rises amongst us? We must be beyond the ethnic problem if we are to create a united and strong nation. We shouldn't start crying the moment Zulfiqar Mirza gives a speech when our politicians give similar speeches all the time.

We think we are the only ones deserving of rights ad despite having 13000 ruppees gdp per capita more than the Punjabis who are at second place in economic power we are demanding more and more.

There will be a new Bengal as there is a need to reclaim the investment made into Pakistan back then. One can always argue that Urdu Speakers live under the delusion as if they have done no harm, but at the same time there has been a concerted effort to push the other ethnicites down. When it came to 71, Urdu speakers were part and participle of the "Brown Sahib" mentality as it is in their very nature to attach themselves to bureaucracy and ride like remoras. But there is discrimination by the politicos of the larger province.

All in all. I am more of the idea that the original movement originated in the areas of Urdu-Speakers.. and perhaps ending up in the land that is today's Pakistan was too premature as the people of this land wanted nothing with Independence. Compared to the Red shirts and Unionists of west Pakistan.. the Bengalis were much more dedicated to the cause of Pakistan and were perhaps the better way to go instead of this side.

 

[Bong]

All things considered. It was the Urdu Speakers who were much more sympathetic to the Bengali plight than any other "speakers" from Pakistan. It was them who helmed the Independence movement along with Bengalis before 1947. Take them out, and you'd be sitting inside India today.

Do you want to denounce the sacrifices Bengal Muslims made for Pakistan? Read direct action day. Where Muslims were weak in every parts of British India, We are the one fought for Pakistan. We were the better Pakistan. Muslim league was created in Dhaka. Lahore resolution was made by our leader. Where these Urdus always worked behind the curtains.
When Pakistan was made they did all to flourish its western wing. Even these Urdus from Bengal were traitor of Bengal. Always sold our interests to west.

 

[IBRIS]

If Jews have to put up with Holocaust deniers why should Bangladeshis treat the "three million" number as something that cannot be questioned? It's a horrible restriction on freedom of speech, a roadblock to education and research, and a lever for the current establishment to demean its opponents. Two thumbs down.

According to some European countries questioning Jewish holocaust can result you getting charged and put you away for upto 5 years behind bars. Specially in Germany.!

After 20 years or so, after Hasina dies, no one will care about this crap. The past is past and we should definitely learn from our mistakes and move on, for the future.

The genocide will always be listed in 1971 war encyclopedias through out the human history now. This isn't 7th century.

 

[SQ8]

Do you want to denounce the sacrifices Bengal Muslims made for Pakistan? Read direct action day. Where Muslims were weak in every parts of British India, We are the one fought for Pakistan. We were the better Pakistan. Muslim league was created in Dhaka. Lahore resolution was made by our leader. Where these Urdus always worked behind the curtains.
When Pakistan was made they did all to flourish its western wing. Even these Urdus from Bengal were traitor of Bengal. Always sold our interests to west.

Incorrect. I want to highlight that both were the actual movement pushers for Pakistan. M.A Jinnah was an urdu speaker..so Im wondering how without him Bangladesh would be anywhere?

 

[khair_ctg]

Urdu speakers were the curse of this land and we enjoy your extinction

i'm not Urdu speaker by any means. and Urdu speakers are not extinct in Bangladesh contrary to what your wild animal like fascist mentality wants.

the Urdu speaking community and Bengali Muslim community are historically very overlapping. pre-1947 - although almost educated Bengali Muslims practiced Urdu as a second/literary language, there were (and still are) many Bengali Muslims who were (are) native urdu speakers. such Bengali Urdu speakers includes many of the top Bengali Muslim leaders before 1947. that means you are nothing but a self-hater or a disguised hindutva extremist

Incorrect. I want to highlight that both were the actual movement pushers for Pakistan. M.A Jinnah was an urdu speaker..so Im wondering how without him Bangladesh would be anywhere?

MA Jinnah was an ethnic Gujarati Muslim and Gujarati speaker. i learned he was weak in Urdu

But it was also our fault. We didn't have equal percentage of Bengalis in the armed forces, investment in Bengal was low and Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto was eager to sieze authority and threatened to break the legs of Bengalis who voted. We are divided brothers and though biases took place in Bengal where untrue figures were construed to be true there was more bias on this side rather than yours.

i agree with you on Zulfiqar Bhutto. those socio-economic things were legacies of colonial period. but some of these problems remaining in United Pakistan were the making of some leftist Bengali politicians themselves who created a Bengali-centrism and anti-Muslim sentiments. these had tremendous backing from Indians and this kind of politics divided traditional Bengalis and a new "secularist" class of Bengalis, Bengalis and non-Bengalis, and in a way, historically less educated people and historically more educated ones. the effects, although were there, did not stop many non-Bengalis to settle and start businesses in East Pakistan, and many Bengalis to find opportunities in private businesses and government bodies. Bengali Muslims' military recruitment increased notably from 1947 to 1971, and talented Bengali Muslims were making their mark in all fields, from education to entertainment. the Bengali Muslims were able to progress in a nation that they fought for and built, and in a manner that reflected Muslim values and our Muslim culture. this was much different from what Bengali Muslims experienced in the Hindu-dominated society before 1947.

the socio-economic factors and discrepancies as you said were bound to exist in society. these would have existed even if United Pakistan survived the Indian takeover. in fact they exist today in separate Bangladesh and Pakistan. the primary issue was hostile India. in 1947, Bengali Muslims fought to become a separate Muslim state. in 1970 elections, Bengali Muslims did not see being under Indian military in their wildest dreams. but it became a reality one year later. after that our Bangladeshi school history books began to be written per the views of fringe people on Indian payroll who used to hate a Muslim state in Bengal. and people of my age started getting taught that being under Indian military were long time aspirations of our forefathers and essential to our national identity

 

[asq]

The three million figure is not "rubbish": rather, estimates of Bangladeshi civilians dead at the hands of the Pakistani Army range from 30,000 to 3,000,000.

As happens so often, the role of Pakistanis themselves in the debacles of their state is obscured. Pakistan fractured because the rifts between West and East were large and Z.A.B. would not let the E. Pakistani victors of the 1971 election reshape the state to decentralize power; his personal political ambitions required a strong state with him in charge. He preferred to manipulate the breakup of Pakistan to achieve dictatorial power rather than keep the state whole and himself as a leader of the loyal parliamentary opposition. As Bangladeshi leaders at the time saw it - and I met a few of these at the time - India's invasion and defeat of the Pakistani Army was more liberation and humanitarian relief than conquest. They considered Bangladeshis a separate people suffering from a parasitic and deadly host.

So as per you India considered bangla desh being victimized, than how come you donot see that in Kashmir and in Palistine, you dude are are a creator of hatred based on your false acusatoins and a terrible try to spread falsehood.

Facts is that without ant reason or rhyme Mujeeb sent Mukti Buhinis a terror group, for training to India for terror training and india planted them in east Pakistan.

Mujeeb also came up with 6 points that were total lie and anti Pakistan act. Read and be enlightened.

Truth is that Pakistan till 1970 was ruled mostly by Bangldsehi leaders, check the facts of History and than come back and talk.