Bangladesh Air Force

[TopCat]

BD has a very complex geopolitical environment.

Let us look at the 3 major realistic weapons suppliers and the pros and cons of each:

1. China :

Pros:Fantasticly affordable as the prices of weapons are low cost and the Chinese will supply on soft loan basis. Since China does not like India that much it could be relied upon to resupply BD in case of conflict with India. In short, BD can afford vast quantities of Chinese arms and resupply will not be an issue of war with India.

Cons: China cannot be relied upon to resupply in case of war with Myanmar as it has major economic interests in that country.

2. Russia:

Pros: Relatively affordable weapons with loans provided. Russia will not have an issue of resupply if BD is at war with Mynamar.

Cons: Although Russian weapons like fighters are cheap to buy, they require far more expensive maintenance than Western types and so the "life-cycle" cost is the same. BD's major threat is India and so Russia cannot be relied upon to not leak secrets or resupply in case of conflict with India.

3. France :

Pros: Fantastic weapons like Rafale fighters. France will resupply in case of conflict with Myanmar.

Cons: Very expensive upfront cost for weapons. Since India is a major buyer of French weapons, cannot be wholly trusted to resupply BD in case of conflict with India.

So you see, none of the realistic 3 major suppliers can be wholly trusted. Gripen and Eurofighter are not realistic as they are multi-national efforts and would need the clearance from many countries.

I say that BD buys fighters from Russua( SU-30SME), China( J-10b) and wait for Turkish TF-X towards the latter part of the 2020s. If BD military planners are smart, they will stock enough supplies that BD can utterly destroy the Myanmarese military and have enough ammunition left to deter Myanmar from trying to prolong any conflict.

Until countries like Turkey can produce the major systems that BD needs and BD itself can produce much more in-house, it will find itself in a predicament with weapons suppliers.



Are you aware that Gripen has US engine and will need US clearance to export to BD?
Gripen has parts from all over the Western world and cannot really be called a Swedish fighter.

Go USA

 

[UKBengali]

Go USA

USA will have too many conditions attached. They may even ask for a base of some kind for supply of fighters to BD.

Also USA is trying to use India against China and so cannot be trusted to supply BD in case of war with India

 

[Avicenna]

BD has a very complex geopolitical environment.

Let us look at the 3 major realistic weapons suppliers and the pros and cons of each:

1. China :

Pros:Fantasticly affordable as the prices of weapons are low cost and the Chinese will supply on soft loan basis. Since China does not like India that much it could be relied upon to resupply BD in case of conflict with India. In short, BD can afford vast quantities of Chinese arms and resupply will not be an issue of war with India.

Cons: China cannot be relied upon to resupply in case of war with Myanmar as it has major economic interests in that country.

2. Russia:

Pros: Relatively affordable weapons with loans provided. Russia will not have an issue of resupply if BD is at war with Mynamar.

Cons: Although Russian weapons like fighters are cheap to buy, they require far more expensive maintenance than Western types and so the "life-cycle" cost is the same. BD's major threat is India and so Russia cannot be relied upon to not leak secrets or resupply in case of conflict with India.

3. France :

Pros: Fantastic weapons like Rafale fighters. France will resupply in case of conflict with Myanmar.

Cons: Very expensive upfront cost for weapons. Since India is a major buyer of French weapons, cannot be wholly trusted to resupply BD in case of conflict with India.

So you see, none of the realistic 3 major suppliers can be wholly trusted. Gripen and Eurofighter are not realistic as they are multi-national efforts and would need the clearance from many countries.

I say that BD buys fighters from Russua( SU-30SME), China( J-10b) and wait for Turkish TF-X towards the latter part of the 2020s. If BD military planners are smart, they will stock enough supplies that BD can utterly destroy the Myanmarese military and have enough ammunition left to deter Myanmar from trying to prolong any conflict.

Until countries like Turkey can produce the major systems that BD needs and BD itself can produce much more in-house, it will find itself in a predicament with weapons suppliers.



Are you aware that Gripen has US engine and will need US clearance to export to BD?
Gripen has parts from all over the Western world and cannot really be called a Swedish fighter.

Lol yes I’m aware of the gripen’s engine etc etc.

The point I’m trying to make. Let’s use Malaysia as an example. In 2017 it has su-30mkm, f-18D, and had mig-29. In the 80’s it had some f-5 and a-4. What I am saying is because of it economic achievement it was able to become a market for more advanced western types. Now there is a competition to perhaps buy the Rafale or some other fancy western gear.

If Bangladesh truely is improving on the economic front, then perhaps it opens up non traditional sources of weapons. Money talks after all.

Who is in charge of defense procurement anyways? Like who makes the decisions to buy so and so?

Bangladesh is a responsible nation and is seen as such by the west. We have good relations with the US. I’m not saying buy a US platform. As we know there are all sorts of strings attached.

But why not diversify your sources. And most importantly. Increase your capabilities starting at the infrastructure level as to support a higher level of combat fighting capability. In my opinion, western systems confer an advantage over Russian and Chinese gear.

 

[TopCat]

USA will have too many conditions attached. They may even ask for a base of some kind for supply of fighters to BD.

Also USA is trying to use India against China and so cannot be trusted to supply BD in case of war with India

In case of war it will be only the USA which we will be counting on to mediate and stop the war at the end of the day. So keeping in a good term with USA is a must despite it being an ally of India.
Most of the string/conditions are related to democracy and human rights and proliferation. I dont think we have any objection to those.

 

[Avicenna]

In case of war it will be only the USA which we will be counting on to mediate and stop the war at the end of the day. So keeping in a good term with USA is a must despite it being an ally of India.
Most of the string/conditions are related to democracy and human rights and proliferation. I dont think we have any objection to those.

Exactly. In fact, Bangladesh has often been praised by the US. I tend to think we are also favorable seen by European nations. And we contribute to the UN. The point being we are a responsible peaceful nation. Politically I see no to few barriers to obtain western gear. Money is of course the issue. But if the economy truley is improving, perhaps BAF should make a play for the Gripen and a western sourced aew/awacs.

 

[UKBengali]

Lol yes I’m aware of the gripen’s engine etc etc.

The point I’m trying to make. Let’s use Malaysia as an example. In 2017 it has su-30mkm, f-18D, and had mig-29. In the 80’s it had some f-5 and a-4. What I am saying is because of it economic achievement it was able to become a market for more advanced western types. Now there is a competition to perhaps buy the Rafale or some other fancy western gear.

If Bangladesh truely is improving on the economic front, then perhaps it opens up non traditional sources of weapons. Money talks after all.

Who is in charge of defense procurement anyways? Like who makes the decisions to buy so and so?

Bangladesh is a responsible nation and is seen as such by the west. We have good relations with the US. I’m not saying buy a US platform. As we know there are all sorts of strings attached.

But why not diversify your sources. And most importantly. Increase your capabilities starting at the infrastructure level as to support a higher level of combat fighting capability. In my opinion, western systems confer an advantage over Russian and Chinese gear.

Malyasia is not a good comparison as India does not have a problem with it getting either US or French gear.

US wants to use India as a bulwark against China and so may not be inclined to upset India by selling to BD. Remember how nuts that the Indians went when BD brought those two Ming-35Gs from China!

France really cares about the most amount of money it can get and would not want to risk losing 10s of billions of dollars of sales to India by selling 1-2 billion dollars of Rafale fighters to BD. Remmber that India paid 250 million dollars per Rafale and so BD would be looking at spending nearly 3 billion US dollars for just 12 Rafales. OK this comes with weapons and maintenance for 10 years but BD could get 30+ J-10s fighters for the same cost.

My point is that for deterrence against India, the Western suppliers are not much better than Russia, whereas China would gladly supply BD with as much weapons as it wants at low cost and soft loans to boot.

Chinese weapons may be a little worse than what can be provided by either EU or US now but remember that Chinese weapons technology is improving faster than that of the West. I am confident in 5-10 years that Chinese gear will be just as good as anything that can be provided by West.

So I say BD's best options now are Russia and China for cost and strategic reasons. Buy Su-30SME from Russia and you have a fighter way better than anything than Myanmar has and supplies in case of war with it. Procure J-10b from China and then you have a reliable fighter and crucially guaranteed supplies in case of conflict with India in the future.

Over the long run, BD should slowly build up it's own defence base but look mainly towards Turkey as that country is hugely improving it's military industry and will always stand by BD in case of war with either Myanmar or India.

 

[Avicenna]

Malyasia is not a good comparison as India does not have a problem with it getting either US or French gear.

US wants to use India as a bulwark against China and so may not be inclined to upset India by selling to BD. Remember how nuts that the Indians went when BD brought those two Ming-35Gs from China!

France really cares about the most amount of money it can get and would not want to risk losing 10s of billions of dollars of sales to India by selling 1-2 billion dollars of Rafale fighters to BD. Remmber that India paid 250 million dollars per Rafale and so BD would be looking at spending nearly 3 billion US dollars for just 12 Rafales. OK this comes with weapons and maintenance for 10 years but BD could get 30+ J-10s fighters for the same cost.

My point is that for deterrence against India, the Western suppliers are not much better than Russia, whereas China would gladly supply BD with as much weapons as it wants at low cost and soft loans to boot.

Chinese weapons may be a little worse than what can be provided by either EU or US now but remember that Chinese weapons technology is improving faster than that of the West. I am confident in 5-10 years that Chinese gear will be just as good as anything that can be provided by West.

So I say BD's best options now are Russia and China for cost and strategic reasons. Buy Su-30SME from Russia and you have a fighter way better than anything than Myanmar has and supplies in case of war with it. Procure J-10b from China and then you have a reliable fighter and crucially guaranteed supplies in case of conflict with India in the future.

Over the long run, BD should slowly build up it's own defence base but look mainly towards Turkey as that country is hugely improving it's military industry and will always stand by BD in case of war with either Myanmar or India.

You make several good points.

However, what is to stop Russia from being influenced by Indian concerns?

I agree though, Turkey may be a significant component of the answer.

I hope Bangladesh starts buying Turkish weapons.

China, I am conflicted over. I hate the Chinese response to Rohingya situation. But they have THEIR interests.

Vis a vis Myanmar, I can't see Chinese sourced wares as dependable.

Perhaps a split of Chinese, Russian, Turkish, and European options? I dunno....

Money and political realities as well as the vision of the BD government will be the determinants as to what direction BAF goes.

 

[mb444]

BD has a very complex geopolitical environment.

Let us look at the 3 major realistic weapons suppliers and the pros and cons of each:

1. China :

Pros:Fantasticly affordable as the prices of weapons are low cost and the Chinese will supply on soft loan basis. Since China does not like India that much it could be relied upon to resupply BD in case of conflict with India. In short, BD can afford vast quantities of Chinese arms and resupply will not be an issue.

Cons: China cannot be relied upon to resupply in case of war with Myanmar as it has major economic interests in that country.

2. Russia:

Pros: Relatively affordable weapons with loans provided. Russia will not have an issue of resupply if BD is at war with Mynamar.

Cons: Although Russian weapons like fighters are cheap to buy, they require far more expensive maintenance than Western types and so the "life-cycle" cost is the same. BD's major threat is India and so Russia cannot be relied upon to not leak secrets or resupply in case of conflict with India.

3. France :

Pros: Fantastic weapons like Rafale fighters. France will resupply in case of conflict with Myanmar.

Cons: Very expensive upfront cost for weapons. Since India is a major buyer of French weapons, cannot be wholly trusted to resupply BD in case of conflict with India.

So you see, none of the realistic 3 major suppliers can be wholly trusted. Gripen and Eurofighter are not realistic as they are multi-national efforts and would need the clearance from many countries.

I say that BD buys fighters from Russua( SU-30SME), China( J-10b) and wait for Turkish TF-X towards the latter part of the 2020s, If BD military planners are smart, they will stock enough supplies that BD can utterly destroy the Myanmarese military and have enough ammunition left to deter Myanmar from trying to prolong any conflict.

Until countries like Turkey can produce the major systems that BD needs and BD itself can produce much more in-house, it will find itself in a predicament with weapons suppliers.



Are you aware that Gripen has US engine and will need US clearance to export to BD?
Gripe has parts from all over the Western world and cannot really be called a Swedish fighter.

Thank you. I am aware of the scenario. BD should explore partnering opportunities in the Turkish fighter programme for BAF. There are no other programme that we can participate in such as the Korean or the Indonesian one. JF17 takes us back to reliance to china/Russia so not feasible.

BD should carry on working with the Chinese in developing our defense sector. But we need to plan and develop on the basis that BD is friendless.

BAF immediate needs I believe probably have be meet via the Chinese.

We need them also to deploy an effective BN and BA.

But I would urge diversification and indeginisation. Approach turkey for BAF and missile tech, approach Iran to understand strategy of coping with enemies at all side.

On diplomatic side engage all and raise national profile. GOB fooled itself and allowed situation to develop thus. It's time to pick ourselves up and be ready to take the fight to the enemy.

 

[Avicenna]

Thank you. I am aware of the scenario. BD should explore partnering opportunities in the Turkish fighter programme for BAF. There are no other programme that we can participate in such as the Korean or the Indonesian one. JF17 takes us back to reliance to china/Russia so not feasible.

BD should carry on working with the Chinese in developing our defense sector. But we need to plan and develop on the basis that BD is friendless.

BAF immediate needs I believe probably have be meet via the Chinese.

We need them also to deploy an effective BN and BA.

But I would urge diversification and indeginisation. Approach turkey for BAF and missile tech, approach Iran to understand strategy of coping with enemies at all side.

On diplomatic side engage all and raise national profile. GOB fooled itself and allowed situation to develop thus. It's time to pick ourselves up and be ready to take the fight to the enemy.

BD has very limited resources. Not sure how much development of the defence sector can happen if the primary export is RMG. Lets be realistic here.

You are correct in that Bangladesh is friendless. Lets start there and rectify that situation.

Also, lets move away from India. Also lets start to diversify the source of military hardware.

Also lets continue to develop infrastructure and the economy.

 

[mb444]

BD has very limited resources. Not sure how much development of the defence sector can happen if the primary export is RMG. Lets be realistic here.

You are correct in that Bangladesh is friendless. Lets start there and rectify that situation.

Also, lets move away from India. Also lets start to diversify the source of military hardware.

Also lets continue to develop infrastructure and the economy.

Beyond BAL who cares about India. BD forces must do what is necessary and remove these traitors.

 

[UKBengali]

Beyond BAL who cares about India. BD forces must do what is necessary and remove these traitors.

Totally agreed.
India has absolutely nothing to offer BD
and so relations must be downgraded to bare minimum.

 

[bd_4_ever]

Good discussion up here. I would personally think China and Russia are the most feasible sources as of now.

 

[Bilal9]

BD has very limited resources. Not sure how much development of the defence sector can happen if the primary export is RMG. Lets be realistic here.

If we had started thirty years ago, starting with making small arms, tank parts, mortars and ammunition expendables, we would not have had to buy those small items (even grenades) from foreign companies. The problem was we never had visionary leaders, only thieves who were interested solely to line their own pockets, all the way from top to bottom leaders.

But start somewhere we must.

The neighbor country's aircraft industry was started by the Americans in WWII (HAL was a repair station for C-124's and Dakotas set up by the USAAF). And it has made that country self-sufficient. They could've had spectacular fighter aircraft by now, if it wasn't for the various corrupt politicians rooting for foreign products like Hawks and Rafales.

Even private companies like Tata and Mahindra have started making small riveted aviation items for the Boeing and Airbuses of the world (a passenger door here, a maintenance panel there). Same with Indonesia. When Dr. Habibie set PT Dirgantara (IPTN) up in Indonesia (JV with Casa Spain) in the late sixties, they did not have any homegrown technical expertise to make even motorcycles. But he had the vision that Indonesia as a country with far-flung locations needed an aircraft industry. So they simply set up one. Products include,

CN-235 (shorter predecessor to our C-295s)

New utility airplane N-219 (flew last month) - there is absolutely no reason we cannot make parts (and eventually the complete aircraft) for something like this. It is very doable with licensing at Bangabanhu Aeronautical Center.

Granted we aren't as resource-rich as those large countries, but we must start things, even if on a smaller scale. I am glad to report Naval build-wise, this is already happening in Bangladesh.

In the early 1900's, the US did not even have an aviation industry, they relied on copied European airplanes to get around. Now look where they are.

You are correct in that Bangladesh is friendless. Lets start there and rectify that situation.

Our Diplomacy is weak and we don't leverage our friends in the West and negotiate enough. That is where rectification can start, active lobbying at Washington and Brussels.

Also, lets move away from India.

Correct. Bhartis will at best want us to be weak/subservient and at worst want us to be a chronic third-world hellhole, dependent on them for everything. It is clear in their actions apparent from putting double barriers on our border with them and then, more recently, Rohingya episode. President Zia started this with our look East policy preferring relations with ASEAN in preference to that of India some two decades ago. This is truer than ever.

Also lets start to diversify the source of military hardware.

Absolutely. Crying need of the day. Maybe Turkey.

Also lets continue to develop infrastructure and the economy.

That is proceeding but we need to make the wheels turn much faster. Govt. policy needs to change for FDI as well.

 

[Avicenna]

If we had started thirty years ago, starting with small arms, tank parts, mortars and ammunition expendables, we would not have had to buy these items (even grenades) from foreign companies. The problem was we never had visionary leaders, only thieves who were interested solely to line their own pockets, all the way from top to bottom leaders.

But start somewhere we must.

The neighbor country's aircraft industry was started by the Americans (HAL was a repair station for C-124's and Dakotas set up by the USAAF). And it has made that country self-sufficient. They could've had spectacular fighter aircraft by now, if it wasn't for the various corrupt politicians rooting for foreign products like Hawks and Rafales.

Even private companies like Tata and Mahindra have started making small riveted aviation items for the Boeing and Airbuses of the world (a passenger door here, a maintenance panel there). Same with Indonesia. When Dr. Habibie set PT Dirgantara (IPTN) up in Indonesia (JV with Casa Spain) in the late sixties, they did not have any homegrown technical expertise to make even motorcycles. But he had the vision that Indonesia as a country with far-flung locations needed an aircraft industry. So they simply set up one. Products include,

CN-235 (shorter predecessor to our C-295s)

New utility airplane N-219 (flew last month) - there is absolutely no reason we cannot make parts (and eventually the complete aircraft) for something like this. It is very doable with licensing at Bangabanhu Aeronautical Center.

Granted we aren't as resource-rich as those large countries, but we must start things, even if on a smaller scale. I am glad to report Naval build-wise, this is already happening in Bangladesh.

In the early 1900's, the US did not even have an aviation industry, they relied on copied European airplanes to get around. Now look where they are.



Our Diplomacy is weak and we don't leverage our friends in the West and negotiate enough. That is where rectification can start, active lobbying at Washington and Brussels.



Correct. Bhartis will at best want us to be weak/subservient and at worst want us to be a third world hellhole for good, dependent on them. It is clear in their actions (putting double barriers on their border and then more recently Rohingya episode. President Zia started this with our look East policy some two decades ago. But more true than ever.



Absolutely. Crying need of the day.



That is proceeding but we need to make the wheels turn much faster. Govt. policy needs to change for FDI as well.

In all honesty. Buy the weapons to maintain a credible ability to defend national interests or at the very least deter neighbors from hostile acts.

More important than building some sort of indigenous defence industry is the continued improvement of healthcare, education, infrastructure. You cant compare a nascent American aviation industry relying on European sources with Bangladesh. The US at that time and Bangladesh in the present are oceans apart in circumstance and situation.

At the very least, I hope Bangladesh gives the attack helicopter contract to Turkey. Perhaps also buy some Turkish UAVs and trainers.

At least attempt to open a discussion to buy the Gripen. Who makes that call in the government? The Defence Minister?

 

[Banglar Bir]

The problem was we never had visionary leaders, only thieves who were interested solely to line their own pockets, all the way from top to bottom leaders.

An brilliant and true reflection of actual reality.Many thanks.