Back Again - 14 Aug Airshow by Stealth

[denel]

But where are the sherdils.....

Yes, agreed... let us bring back this thread to normality.

I recall seeing Diamond formation in the office of Rab Nawaz when he invited me for lunch and dinner at his home in Dar es Salam. There was a diamond formation of F-86 sabres he was leading. THat caught my eye - he said it was a world record at one time to have so many together to a loop. Any one having this photo please do share.

 

[Big Tank]

Not much interested to cover the event so some of my fazool shots lol

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Bro which lens did you use?

 

[Raider 21]

But where are the sherdils.....

Too busy flying the same patterns over and over again.....unfortunately it is a team for the air force events, it has no major public relations in terms that it is the people's air force they should be representing rather it is under the blanketed cloud of projection of their own pilots. At least that is my judgement, as harsh as it may be but I have a father who was lucky enough to fly for Sherdils and my opinion is based largely on his time and experience with the team...hence my criticism.

Yes, agreed... let us bring back this thread to normality.

I recall seeing Diamond formation in the office of Rab Nawaz when he invited me for lunch and dinner at his home in Dar es Salam. There was a diamond formation of F-86 sabres he was leading. THat caught my eye - he said it was a world record at one time to have so many together to a loop. Any one having this photo please do share.

Rab Nawaz....the combat controller ?? I believe he used to be attached at PAF Kamra when they were operating F-16s during the 1980s.

 

[Airdef95]

]

These are all yours??? Are you the photographer (waleed irfan) ??
Amazing photography. [emoji1303][emoji1303][emoji1303]

 

[denel]

Too busy flying the same patterns over and over again.....unfortunately it is a team for the air force events, it has no major public relations in terms that it is the people's air force they should be representing rather it is under the blanketed cloud of projection of their own pilots. At least that is my judgement, as harsh as it may be but I have a father who was lucky enough to fly for Sherdils and my opinion is based largely on his time and experience with the team...hence my criticism.

Rab Nawaz....the combat controller ?? I believe he used to be attached at PAF Kamra when they were operating F-16s during the 1980s.

Yes that is the exact photo!.

He was posted as ambassador to Tanzania in 1982; I met him in Dar es Salaam. I think he returned back. His son passed away in a major air crash a few years back.

Wonderful person and super hospitable.

 

[Raider 21]

Yes that is the exact photo!.

He was posted as ambassador to Tanzania in 1982; I met him in Dar es Salaam. I think he returned back. His son passed away in a major air crash a few years back.

Wonderful person and super hospitable.

I doubt he was leading the formation, it was led by Zafar Masud.

 

[Ahsan abbas12]

Assalam O Alaikum
your post is amaizing

 

[Falgrine]

Too busy flying the same patterns over and over again.....unfortunately it is a team for the air force events, it has no major public relations in terms that it is the people's air force they should be representing rather it is under the blanketed cloud of projection of their own pilots. At least that is my judgement, as harsh as it may be but I have a father who was lucky enough to fly for Sherdils and my opinion is based largely on his time and experience with the team...hence my criticism.

You would know that the Sherdils are a part time aerobatic team. AJTS guys start practicing only 6-8 weeks before the grad ceremony. Typically, the tenures for FIS graduates are limited to 3 years, and its only after 1/1.5 years into the posting when instructors actually join the team. It could be even later in some cases. Hence, it is quite rare for a member to fly on more than 3 grad ceremonies. In the contrast, the Red arrows, Al Fursan, Saudi hawks etc. are full timers. Moreover, the hawk is definitely a better platform as compared to K-8 when it comes to some seriously aggressive maneuvering. As they say, it has much more juice.

So in the end its all about the investment of time and money. If PAF decides to allocate budget for a dedicated team and buys a sqn worth of hawks/L-xyz, I do not see any reason for not having a definite performance improvement. Cheers.

 

[Raider 21]

You would know that the Sherdils are a part time aerobatic team. AJTS guys start practicing only 6-8 weeks before the grad ceremony. Typically, the tenures for FIS graduates are limited to 3 years, and its only after 1/1.5 years into the posting when instructors actually join the team. It could be even later in some cases. Hence, it is quite rare for a member to fly on more than 3 grad ceremonies. In the contrast, the Red arrows, Al Fursan, Saudi hawks etc. are full timers. Moreover, the hawk is definitely a better platform as compared to K-8 when it comes to some seriously aggressive maneuvering. As they say, it has much more juice.

So in the end its all about the investment of time and money. If PAF decides to allocate budget for a dedicated team and buys a sqn worth of hawks/L-xyz, I do not see any reason for not having a definite performance improvement. Cheers.

Heard that before, and I know (my dad was Sherdil 3 in 1989). But the Spanish AF team is also a part time team and they fly a world class display. And no, they will not buy Hawks/L-xyz just for aerobatic purposes....it isn't practical. And if you want to see K-8s maneuvering, check what the Egyptian AF aerobatic team can do.

 

[Falgrine]

Heard that before, and I know (my dad was Sherdil 3 in 1989). But the Spanish AF team is also a part time team and they fly a world class display. And no, they will not buy Hawks/L-xyz just for aerobatic purposes....it isn't practical. And if you want to see K-8s maneuvering, check what the Egyptian AF aerobatic team can do.

My younger brother had also been flying Sherdil 3 until recently. My point here is that longer time commitment from the team members is required for the performance improvement. My bro could only fly on two grad ceremonies before his posting got due.

May be the Chinese model can be replicated where officers in basic flying instruction line are separated from the fighter flying branch. Perhaps, in this way Sherdils can get some sort of permanency.

Sure, they can continue flying K8s. However there is definitely a performance gap between it and the Hawk.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

For the PAF to acquire the Hawk it would have to align future LIFT/FCU needs to that platform.

As per Alan Warnes: the PAF thinks most LIFT options are over-equipped for the role (too costly) and it will use the FT-7P in that role for the time being. I can understand the PAF's reluctance towards the T-50, L-15 and Yak-130, they're relatively close in size and power to the JF-17.

However, the Hawk - and Czech L-159 - sit between the K-8 and JF-17, at least in terms of thrust output. I suspect the major drawback with would be the life-cycle support costs being relatively high, especially for the Hawk seeing that spare parts would have to be bought in GBP. On the other hand, it might also be costly to develop an enlarged K-8 variant for a 28 kN turbofan. There is also the option of waiting for the Turkish 'Freedom Trainer'.

Anyways, just for kicks, here are rough (and probably inaccurate) cost estimations of the Hawk 128:

In 2006 the UK ordered 28 Hawk 128s for £450 m. Today, that would be £613 m GBP - i.e. $786 million U.S. In 2012, Saudi Arabia ordered 22 Hawk 128-based AJTs for $800 m. I suspect (and hope) these prices include both the jet and support costs, the latter spreadable over 5-10 years. To be honest, this is one of those areas the PAF could theoretically take on, but it will require squeezing and trading-off in other areas.

 

[Falgrine]

For the PAF to acquire the Hawk it would have to align future LIFT/FCU needs to that platform.

As per Alan Warnes: the PAF thinks most LIFT options are over-equipped for the role (too costly) and it will use the FT-7P in that role for the time being. I can understand the PAF's reluctance towards the T-50, L-15 and Yak-130, they're relatively close in size and power to the JF-17.

However, the Hawk - and Czech L-159 - sit between the K-8 and JF-17, at least in terms of thrust output. I suspect the major drawback with would be the life-cycle support costs being relatively high, especially for the Hawk seeing that spare parts would have to be bought in GBP. On the other hand, it might also be costly to develop an enlarged K-8 variant for a 28 kN turbofan. There is also the option of waiting for the Turkish 'Freedom Trainer'.

Anyways, just for kicks, here are rough (and probably inaccurate) cost estimations of the Hawk 128:

In 2006 the UK ordered 28 Hawk 128s for £450 m. Today, that would be £613 m GBP - i.e. $786 million U.S. In 2012, Saudi Arabia ordered 22 Hawk 128-based AJTs for $800 m. I suspect (and hope) these prices include both the jet and support costs, the latter spreadable over 5-10 years. To be honest, this is one of those areas the PAF could theoretically take on, but it will require squeezing and trading-off in other areas.

JF17B as a LIFT/fighter conversion platform or not. May be this issue can be studied in a more scientific manner, where the adaptation process of the young grads can be quantitatively analyzed. The outcome would not only lead to a better decision but could also lead to some potential improvements in the training regime followed at the PFT/BFT.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

JF17B as a LIFT/fighter conversion platform or not. May be this issue can be studied in a more scientific manner, where the adaptation process of the young grads can be quantitatively analyzed. The outcome would not only lead to a better decision but could also lead to some potential improvements in the training regime followed at the PFT/BFT.

The current ACM had hinted at using the JF-17B as LIFT in 2015, but as of late, it seems the PAF leadership switched to FT-7s as LIFT/FCU (implying the JF-17B will be OCU).

However, the FT-7 is a fleeting platform as it too is aging (or has aged). Ultimately, I think they're just deferring the LIFT question for a time when there's more funding and fewer priorities.

That said, there are some valid rationalizations. First, I can't see them ever acquiring the T-50 or anything close in size, performance and operating costs to the JF-17. The T-50, L-15, Yak-130 and M-346 are all light fighters that are very close to the JF-17 (e.g. T-50) or with potentially overlapping cost issues and capabilities (e.g. M-346).

It is the Hawk 127, L-159 and Freedom Trainer-like platforms that are interesting. They're effectively between the K-8 and JF-17, but leaning more towards the K-8 in terms of size and power. Yet they are still markedly different, as we've seen with the Hawk 127/AJT's performance. So there is a genuine jump from the K-8, but it isn't overlapping with the JF-17.

Between them, the Hawk 127 is a relatively costly but rock-solid, mature and venerable option. The ACM also said stuff about wanting to work with Turkey on the next-gen fighter, which implies TFX, which in turn means that AHQ will need to talk to London. A Hawk AJT purchase can be a way to build a bridge with BAE. It's costly, but not costly in the sense of an albatross, but rather a nice power tool - it costs money, but it gets the job done, well.

The L-159 has just returned to production. It remains to be seen how well Aero Vodochody will manage controlling the cost since it has basically revived a shuttered production line - no small feat. However, the L-159 promises to be cheaper than the Hawk, and probably easier to acquire seeing that the Czech gov't is positive about defence ties with Pakistan. But then again, on/off production is an issue of concern from a longevity standpoint.

The Turkish Freedom Trainer is in development, but its entry as a factor could coincide with the day the FT-7P and FT-7PG have to be retired (for age). Pakistan is also opening a few major fronts with the Turkish industry, so if the performance is up to point (the Turks will replace their T-38s with the Freedom), then perhaps?

 

[Falgrine]

The current ACM had hinted at using the JF-17B as LIFT in 2015, but as of late, it seems the PAF leadership switched to FT-7s as LIFT/FCU (implying the JF-17B will be OCU). However, the FT-7 is a fleeting platform as it too is aging (or has aged). Ultimately, I think they're just deferring the LIFT question for a time when there's more funding and fewer priorities.

The issue with the F7 is that it is not a very forgiving a/c. High landing speed, prone to spin(remember many of the F7 crashes are attributed to this), engine failures etc. plague this legacy bird. This limits the freedom of young kids to do some real aggressive flying. K8 being sort of a basic jet trainer, on the other hand, is not quite well suited for the FC role.

It is the Hawk 127, L-159 and Freedom Trainer-like platforms that are interesting .... So there is a genuine jump from the K-8.

That is true. Infact this is what I wanted to highlight in my previous post. BFT to JF17B is quite a bit of jump. A LIFT or a real Advanced Jet trainer, not K8, would fill in that niche quite nicely.

Between them, the Hawk 127 is a relatively costly but rock-solid, mature and venerable option. The ACM also said stuff about wanting to work with Turkey on the next-gen fighter, which implies TFX, which in turn means that AHQ will need to talk to London. A Hawk AJT purchase can be a way to build a bridge with BAE. It's costly, but not costly in the sense of an albatross, but rather a nice power tool - it costs money, but it gets the job done, well.

The L-159 has just returned to production. It remains to be seen how well Aero Vodochody will manage controlling the cost since it has basically revived a shuttered production line - no small feat. However, the L-159 promises to be cheaper than the Hawk, and probably easier to acquire seeing that the Czech gov't is positive about defence ties with Pakistan. But then again, on/off production is an issue of concern from a longevity standpoint.

The Turkish Freedom Trainer is in development, but its entry as a factor could coincide with the day the FT-7P and FT-7PG have to be retired (for age). Pakistan is also opening a few major fronts with the Turkish industry, so if the performance is up to point (the Turks will replace their T-38s with the Freedom), then perhaps?

A sound analysis. I think that the first two options should be seriously looked into. I am not sure how long the development of the Turkish trainer would take. So getting T38 in a reasonable time frame might not be that realistic. Also, the extent of the Turkish modifications to the original T38s/F5s is another question. The two former options (Hawk and L-159), on the other hand, are relatively new and might be more modern in the terms of avionics/ergonomics etc.

 

[Raider 21]

The Hawk 127 was specifically designed for the RAAF. The Hawks being flown by RSAF these days are the Hawk LIFTs and Hawk 65. For aerobatics it is better to use the 65 rather than the LIFT as it is too overpowered for formation aerobatics in front of the crowd.