Back Again - 14 Aug Airshow by Stealth

[Muhammad Omar]

Dasso aur hm in pics ko wallpaper material smjhte hain

Why not just call him tharki?

wohi na Hum Fazool pics ko dekh k bhi khush hoty hain

 

[Counterpunch]

If a country's air force is capable of performing at an airshow, especially with close proximity formation flying, that means mastery of the aircraft is not in question, even if such skills are confined to only the elites. The questions then are what happens to those skills ? Why are they not disseminated to other airmen ? If not, what are the barriers to that dissemination ? Not every soldier in the army is a sniper quality marksman, but every soldier must possess the minimum skills with a rifle.

Mastery of the aircraft often -- if not usually -- internally encourages exploration into other areas of combat expertise. The individual pilot is motivated because now he understood his new skills' boundaries. The issue now is the institutions of the air force if those institutions are amenable to pilots' further education and training.

Therein lies the problem for countries that must import their defense. In speaking for the air force, which is the usually most technologically complex branch of service as not every country has a navy, the lack of progress in advanced education and training usually demoralizes that air force. As they have to buy the jets, their budget often do not have excess funds for advanced training. Whereas if the country has its own defense industry, combat aircraft can be custom tailored to meet unique needs, which usually motivate the government to allocate funds to develop advanced education and training for its air force.

Going back to the army example. Not every soldier is a sniper, but for the air force, practically every pilot must be within a certain range of proficiency to each other, in other words, every fighter pilot is a 'sniper' equivalent due to the technologically complex systems the air force must learn and maintain. Not advancing those skills is like restricting that army sniper only to the ranges, not the woods, and only to 100 meters. Once a person is trained to an advanced skill, the odds of having that person being bored increases unless he is continually stressed.

Good reply. I agree with most of the points. Combat effectiveness however still relies heavily on the overall training doctrine of the force in question. A country the makeup of KSA might have excellent equipment but they will not possess the combative skills possessed by the pilots of the country with the hostile neighbors as Pakistan. Likewise, for Israel versus the Arabs the same logic holds

To quote an example from PAF ace M.M.Alam which he mentioned when US attacked Iraq for the second time; Iraqi AF was non existent because of the defensive mindset and the similar overall doctrine of their forces. He mentioned that previously Iraqi AF was trained by PAF and they had an attacking posture and then they shifted their training to Indians. Indians being a much larger AF and better equipped are inherently less aggressive and so this they passed on to their trainees. According to M.M. Alam, right or wrong, (when the war was absolutely certain) if PAF was in place of Iraqis they would have attacked the US base or the naval ships in hordes and raised the cost of the war for the attacker magnanimously. There was no point sitting and burying your planes under sand when there was to be no tomorrow for it

This I believe is something which costly machines or aerobatic excellence cannot infuse and instill

 

[CriticalThought]

Good reply. I agree with most of the points. Combat effectiveness however still relies heavily on the overall training doctrine of the force in question. A country the makeup of KSA might have excellent equipment but they will not possess the combative skills possessed by the pilots of the country with the hostile neighbors as Pakistan. Likewise, for Israel versus the Arabs the same logic holds

To quote an example from PAF ace M.M.Alam which he mentioned when US attacked Iraq for the second time; Iraqi AF was non existent because of the defensive mindset and the similar overall doctrine of their forces. He mentioned that previously Iraqi AF was trained by PAF and they had an attacking posture and then they shifted their training to Indians. Indians being a much larger AF and better equipped are inherently less aggressive and so this they passed on to their trainees. According to M.M. Alam, right or wrong, (when the war was absolutely certain) if PAF was in place of Iraqis they would have attacked the US base or the naval ships in hordes and raised the cost of the war for the attacker magnanimously. There was no point sitting and burying your planes under sand when there was to be no tomorrow for it

This I believe is something which costly machines or aerobatic excellence cannot infuse and instill

Well said!

 

[gambit]

There is also the not so small matter that most aerobatics is done on trainers. Where actual jets are used, it doesn't involve high g maneuvers that push the envelope of performance. Also, in combat, synchronized maneuvers will lead to a big synchronized pile of roast turkeys. Finally, evasive maneuvers such as supersonic flight are out of the question.

The goal of precision flying, civilian or military, is to demonstrate as high a PERSONAL skill as possible. The jet used is important but actually secondary to that need.

That said, the reason the USAF used the F-16 instead of the larger F-15 is because the F-16 is more agile and allows the individual pilots greater latitude in executing very small corrections in close maneuvers, also because of that agility, when in close formation, the F-16 allows the flight to perform their maneuvers in smaller airspace when necessary, making it easier for the viewers.

It may sounds strange, but the F-16 is probably the safest jet to fly in close formation like those in airshows.

 

[CHI RULES]

Have their plane been shot down there ? and you cant bring down a insurgency in days . Look at Pakistan or even at US .

Sir they are stuck in Yemen despite free bombing they are unable to damage Houti's infrastructure. Most of their missiles killed general public. Prove me wrong they have lost few jets due to technical faults, even F15s.

True Sherdils performance looks Obsolete in front of Saudi Hawks

Sir KSA pilots no doubt performed in much superior way but don't forget that they are British trained and using BAE hawks many times capable then Sherdils.

 

[Curious_Guy]

impressive shots Stealth , love your work . every time you produce quality clicks .

and saudi discussion is intresting

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Sir they are stuck in Yemen despite free bombing they are unable to damage Houti's infrastructure. Most of their missiles killed general public. Prove me wrong they have lost few jets due to technical faults, even F15s.


Sir KSA pilots no doubt performed in much superior way but don't forget that they are British trained and using BAE hawks many times capable then Sherdils.

They are trained by British ?? that doesn't mean our pilots are under trained or inferior they can perform these stunts for sure

also i didn't saw anything which our Sherdils can't perform using K-8

 

[MastanKhan]

It may sounds strange, but the F-16 is probably the safest jet to fly in close formation like those in airshows.

Hi,

I think the visibility of the pilot is also one of the major factors.

who says Saudis have incompetent pilots . I don't think so .

Syed,

Dressage horses are not the same type as the Race horses.

 

[Imran Khan]

@Stealth cheeta hai tu mera jani cheeta

 

[The Accountant]

lol its gureilla warfare . Saudis have bombed shit out of them . You need boots on ground to capture cities . It is not a video game . As far as collateral damage is concerned , take a look at world class USAF . It is not like targeting a designated military target .

what is impressive according to your definition ? A full scale war or what ?

it is the most absurd comment I have ever seen . how can they prove their without going to war . Look at PLAAF . they have zero combat record and experience as compared to say USAF or even PAF . does that mean their air force is worthless .

no , it is not .

Can you please give me one remarkable achievement of Saudis starting from Gulf war,,, Saudis themselves are not confident in their capabilities, and therefore they have US base and is making a military coalition against terrorism ...

Their are wars left and right and everywhere around KSA and KSA's opponents are winning they openly oppose those terrorist organizations but what Saudis are doing?

Regarding USAF, if took mere weeks to remove the gov from major cities of Iraq and Afghanistan, Saudis are not capable of removing rebels from the capital city of Sanaa ... Have you ever been to Sanaa, I have spent 2 months in Saanaa, I have Yemeni and Pakistani friends in the city ,,, the city is not more than one fourth of Islamabad and its not like that some gorilla warfare is going on within the city ... If you cant get control of the capital city after years of assault then you are capabilities are seriously doubtful ...

 

[Syed Asif Bukhari]

Dressage horses are not the same type as the Race horses.

with due respect sir , both require high degree of professionalism even former require more .

Can you please give me one remarkable achievement of Saudis starting from Gulf war,,, Saudis themselves are not confident in their capabilities, and therefore they have US base and is making a military coalition against terrorism ...

Their are wars left and right and everywhere around KSA and KSA's opponents are winning they openly oppose those terrorist organizations but what Saudis are doing?

Regarding USAF, if took mere weeks to remove the gov from major cities of Iraq and Afghanistan, Saudis are not capable of removing rebels from the capital city of Sanaa ... Have you ever been to Sanaa, I have spent 2 months in Saanaa, I have Yemeni and Pakistani friends in the city ,,, the city is not more than one fourth of Islamabad and its not like that some gorilla warfare is going on within the city ... If you cant get control of the capital city after years of assault then you are capabilities are seriously doubtful ...

the short answer to your post . You require boots on ground to capture a city . Air power can only soften the target .

Sir they are stuck in Yemen despite free bombing they are unable to damage Houti's infrastructure. Most of their missiles killed general public. Prove me wrong they have lost few jets due to technical faults, even F15s.

You are may be right . But there is always collateral damage .Be it USAF , PAF or RSAF . Especially when you are fighting WOT .

 

[The Accountant]

with due respect sir , both require high degree of professionalism even former require more .


the short answer to your post . You require boots on ground to capture a city . Air power can only soften the target .


You are may be right . But there is always collateral damage .Be it USAF , PAF or RSAF . Especially when you are fighting WOT .

Leave Yemen aside, kindly give me the basis of your deduction that KSA is one of the best muslim air force ... take any of the achievement in last 50 years ...

Keep the capabilities of planes aside ...

You are making a claim ... I am saying not to make a claim without basis ... now provide me the basis of your claim ...

 

[MastanKhan]

with due respect sir , both require high degree of professionalism even former require more

Hi,

Indeed they do---that training does make them strut and prance around in a beautiful manner but does not make them win races---the main purpose for being a horse.

 

[denel]

Can you please give me one remarkable achievement of Saudis starting from Gulf war,,, Saudis themselves are not confident in their capabilities, and therefore they have US base and is making a military coalition against terrorism ...

Their are wars left and right and everywhere around KSA and KSA's opponents are winning they openly oppose those terrorist organizations but what Saudis are doing?

Regarding USAF, if took mere weeks to remove the gov from major cities of Iraq and Afghanistan, Saudis are not capable of removing rebels from the capital city of Sanaa ... Have you ever been to Sanaa, I have spent 2 months in Saanaa, I have Yemeni and Pakistani friends in the city ,,, the city is not more than one fourth of Islamabad and its not like that some gorilla warfare is going on within the city ... If you cant get control of the capital city after years of assault then you are capabilities are seriously doubtful ...

Well put. It pains me to see the attrocities KSA have done in Yemen with the indiscriminate bombings. They have no balls (Golda took those away long ago); to even go and put Assad away yet they will go and bomb a poor country with nothing but nothing to its name. That is the manly prowess these people have.

I apologise, it makes my blood boil; Salman and entire entourage needed to put put in front of a mob and stoned. These are the great custodians of holy places.... Sorry all not meaning it any negative light.

I have distant family from Yemen and I have been to Yemen to visit and work in NGO camps.

Hi,

Indeed they do---that training does make them strut and prance around in a beautiful manner but does not make them win races---the main purpose for being a horse.

but in KSA cases we are talking about mixed donkeys.

 

[Toori]

But where are the sherdils.....