Azerbaijan: T-90SA, BMP-3M, Msta-S, TOS-1A

[Worf]

But give me some data on your IFV if you please sir

If I was the owner of a company that produced IFV's, I wouldn't be on this forum discussing about how a Turkish IFV supposedly got foreign help for south Korea.

But here you go, ask your sources about this;

 

[LegionnairE]

It would take Turkey probably two years at best, and 3-4 most likely, to finish all the testing and start serial production, at which time it would first need to supply its own army, before it can export it.

Then, aren't several major parts in Altay produced by EU countries and thus subject to their export control?

2 years is nothing, we could start production with Azerbaijan simultaneously

Answer to your question is negative, we do know that development of indigenous power pack will take time and the first batch of Altay will be produced with 1500hp German MTU Diesel engine but as far as I know the production will take place in Turkey. If it comes to that we can make do with another engine. Germans aren't the only ones who produce engines you know

Ukrainian KMDB's Oplot engine can be applied for an export version of Altay for Azerbaijan.

4-supplies of Ukrainian engines for armoured vehicles produced in Turkey. They outlined priority projects, drew up their implementation schedules, and reached agreement on a number of disputable issues," the source told Radio Ukraine on Wednesday.

 

[Kajutyun]

@gr8vision I have no idea why you are false-flagging. Chances are, if you are American you would have never heard of Armenia or Azerbaijan. If, by chance, you are an intelligent American, then you would realize that everything you said is complete BS.

You also cite sources in Turkish. Nevertheless, I'll answer your questions because they are thought provoking.

There doesn't seem to be any real "parity" or military balance - Azerbaijan has clear quantitative and qualitative superiority, in the number and type of weapons. However, according to many experts, due to geography and other consideration, any liberation campaign would be very costly right now for Azerbaijan, hence it seems to be waiting, thinking that time is on its side.

As I have written MANY MANY times before, I am NOT talking about an absolute advantage. I am referring to the relative balance of power. You can read my earlier posts because I am not retyping for the millionth time what the word "relative" means.

Iskander's are not Armenia's property. They are stationed on a Russian military base (which it has all rights over till 2044), and thus is Russian property operated by Russian citizens. Moreover, the Iskander's are not even aimed at or against Azerbaijan: 1) Azerbaijan is clearly not planning to attach Republic of Armenia, and 2) they are a response to American deployments and radar in Turkey. If Russia would want to scare Azerbaijan with short- and medium-range missiles, it would station them in Daghestan, as well as in South Ossetia - not to mention dispatch Caspian flotilla closer to Baku.

Agreed, not sure why you are telling me this. Although your assumption when you say "Azerbaijan is clearly not planning to attack RA" is flawed, because in any potential conflict it will end up having to. Also, Russia does not need to "scare" Azerbaijan, that is already the case.

Also, keep in mind that Iskander-M's range is 400 KM, whereas Baku is 513 km away from Gyumri, Armenia (which is on the border with Turkey). So whom will these advanced missiles threaten in Baku, the capital of Azerbaijan?

Uhhh...no. I recently started a thread about this exact topic in this exact section. Go read it.

Then, Armenia has how many Smerch systems? 12. How many does Azerbaijan have? At least 30, possibly 36. Plus Azerbaijan has almost two hundred other MLRS systems - seems to be much more than what Armenia has (by Armenia I include and mean everything it stations on Azerbaijan's occupied territories as well).

No idea what is in Armenia's arsenal. Unlike Azerbaijan, we do not publish such information (at least until several years have passed), and the Wikipedia entries are of course outdated.

Yes. I am aware of non-combat losses in Armenian Army. Wanna hear something cool? Since January, APA has reported 53 deaths of Azerbaijani military personnel. And it hasn't been even half a year yet.

 

[Kajutyun]

Discussing history with a Turk. Exhilirating...

Shahumian/Goranboy was never part of NKAO/NK. Also, it is not occupied - it's a region of Azerbaijan. How can Azerbaijan occupy itself? Then should Azerbaijanis refer to Zangezur (Syunik marz in Armenian) as occupied region?

Well no sh*t. Shahumian was never part of independent Karabakh BECAUSE it is occupied by Azerbaijan.

Also, for future reference, I have no intention of arguing correcting the terminology "occupied regions of Azerbaijan." This is sheer idiocy. Occupied according to who? The UN? Who cares. Do you care when UN says North Cyprus is an occupied territory? No. So spare me your BS. Shahumian was Armenian before the word "Azeri/Azerbaijani" was even invented.

Also, Armenians did not voluntarily leave it - they had to. I hope you understand that words like "voluntarily left a whole district" is nonsense in military theory or practice, at least in the West.

Wrong. I can't find a non-Armenian source to show you, but if you knew anything about the region you are talking about, you would know that it is geographically indefensible. Yes, Armenians left because they would get pummeled if they stayed. I consider that to be "voluntary"

Finally, could you prove your point about the eastern border of Greater Armenia? Aside from the fact that it existed for only a few decades at its maximum extent, and its hold over Karabakh (then part of Caucasian Albania) is quite debated to put it mildly. But equally important, the Greater Armenia was not even ruled by ethnic Armenians. The entire royal dynasty, including Tigranes the Great, were not ethnically Armenian, and were instead Iranic, of Persian and Parthian ancestry. This undeniable fact is evident not just from the research of modern *Armenian* researchers, but also the "father of Armenian history" Movses from Khorene (Movses Khorenatsi). Indeed, the state called Armenia was not ruled by ethnically Armenian dynasties until 428 AD (by which time it was not even independent)."

And what is your point? Legal status of land is not determined by if an ethnicity held it at some point. By that logic, Armenians should also be claiming Syria and Israel. And Turkey would have no right to TRNC. It is based on the principle of self-determination, and is therefore liable to change. Nagorno Karbakh is, and for much of history, was dominantly Armenian. Despite 70 years of depopulation by Soviet Azerbaijan. Thus, due to exercise of free will of the people, NKR is independent. HOWEVER, this does not apply in case of genocide. That is why eastern Turkey is rightful Armenian land. And before you bring up Khojaly BS, realize that the largest estimation of deaths in that event is around 650. Does that sound like a genocide to you?!?! Most of those deaths were due to indiscriminate Azeri shelling anyway.

Oh yeah, and Nachkichevan is Armenian too. Unless you are one of this " historically enlightened" Turks who believe that Armenians never lived there.

For a self-described history enthusiast, you are very poorly informed.

 

[Azeri440]

No idea what is in Armenia's arsenal. Unlike Azerbaijan, we do not publish such information (at least until several years have passed), and the Wikipedia entries are of course outdated.

are you kidding?
provide me one major deal that was reported by Azerbaijan's side first
I already seen so many Armeanians say that
exactly what do you buy? the biggest purchase you have made is Smerch which Armenia happily announced right away
then there are T-72 upgrades which Armenia also announced right away
so tell me what do you keep secret with your 400 million budget
Azerbaijan kept deals worth billions and billions secret for years , until pictures appeared on the net and Russian sources shared contracts

Oh yeah, and Nachkichevan is Armenian too. Unless you are one of this " historically enlightened" Turks who believe that Armenians never lived there.

oh yea sure according to armenians whole world once spoke armenian

 

[Azeri440]

2 years is nothing, we could start production with Azerbaijan simultaneously

Answer to your question is negative, we do know that development of indigenous power pack will take time and the first batch of Altay will be produced with 1500hp German MTU Diesel engine but as far as I know the production will take place in Turkey. If it comes to that we can make do with another engine. Germans aren't the only ones who produce engines you know

Ukrainian KMDB's Oplot engine can be applied for an export version of Altay for Azerbaijan.

by the time Altays start entering service T-72s will need a replacement
also I hope Azerbaijan goes for Tulpar

 

[gr8vision]

@gr8vision I have no idea why you are false-flagging. Chances are, if you are American you would have never heard of Armenia or Azerbaijan. If, by chance, you are an intelligent American, then you would realize that everything you said is complete BS.

You also cite sources in Turkish. Nevertheless, I'll answer your questions because they are thought provoking.

Not sure why you are so angry all of the sudden. Handle yourself better, please. There is no "false-flagging" or "complete BS". Unlike you, I have provided a bunch of links for verification from a multitude of sources, including, on average, 40%-50% from Armenian news sources (and maybe only 10% from Turkish). So how can there be any "BS"? As a courtesy, I am ready to find non-Turkish sources to verify any given info, whenever possible. So please don't make these cheap shots, they only make your logic, reasoning and arguments more naked than they are.

As I have written MANY MANY times before, I am NOT talking about an absolute advantage. I am referring to the relative balance of power. You can read my earlier posts because I am not retyping for the millionth time what the word "relative" means.

Why should I read your previous posts, especially to get what the term "relative" means? You didn't refer to your previous posts in the post to which I was commenting, and you didn't make anything clear in your post to which I was replying. So my comments are valid. I am glad to see that we agree on absolute parity, but our disagreement then remains on 'relative parity', because even there Azerbaijan has a clear superiority in most fields. However, that superiority is not overwhelming and not near a factor of 3 or more that is needed to mount a successful military campaign according to many military theorists and practitioners.

Agreed, not sure why you are telling me this. Although your assumption when you say "Azerbaijan is clearly not planning to attack RA" is flawed, because in any potential conflict it will end up having to. Also, Russia does not need to "scare" Azerbaijan, that is already the case.

How will Azerbaijan "have to" attack Republic of Armenia (RA) in any potential conflict? If RA will launch SCUD-B's or other missiles on Azerbaijan from Armenia proper, or will use the S-300 or other radars from RA - then certainly there is a very high likelihood of Azerbaijan retaliating (and thus its "attack" being in self-defense, and not triggering CSTO obligations of Russia [forget about all other CSTO members, they are all on Azerbaijan's side anyway, so CSTO help to Armenia is pure speculation and a no-go in real terms]).

I am glad that you now agree (via your comment about Azerbaijan being scared of Russia anyhow) that Iskander-M's are not Armenia's property and do not threaten Azerbaijan - they are stationed on Russian's military outpost (that's what Russian leaders call Armenia) to hold U.S. installations in Turkey under threat of destruction.

Uhhh...no. I recently started a thread about this exact topic in this exact section. Go read it.

If you want me to read anything of yours, then be considerate enough to provide a link to your writings that you think are so important. And tone down your attitude, learn some basic (online) manners. It's easy to act like you do sitting behind a computer. I can guarantee you that you would be much more humble and nice in person.

No idea what is in Armenia's arsenal. Unlike Azerbaijan, we do not publish such information (at least until several years have passed), and the Wikipedia entries are of course outdated.

Kajutyun, you definitely do not know what is in Armenia's arsenal, but the world does. Let me break it out for you, since you seem to think that arms purchases are a one-way street, and the whole world is blind to Armenia's arms purchases, and depends on Armenian leaders' disclosures. Unfortunately for you, when you try to buy anything from Moldova, Ukraine, Belarus and Slovakia, as well as a few other countries and even Russia, Azerbaijan always finds out about it before delivering take place, along with Turkey, U.S. and a few others. Thus, they know exactly how many Smerch, Uragan, Tochka-U and other MLRS Armenia got in recent years, just like the world knew about Armenia's purchases of 10 old jet fighters (plus one SU-25 trainer jet) from Slovakia in 2005 - before Sargsyan announced it (I actually read about it in a British military magazine, with photos). So please don't think you are so smart, while the whole world is so stupid.

Yes. I am aware of non-combat losses in Armenian Army. Wanna hear something cool? Since January, APA has reported 53 deaths of Azerbaijani military personnel. And it hasn't been even half a year yet.

Suddenly, you forgot the word "relative" that you were trumpeting about above - what a short memory you have Kajutyun! Let's compare some apples to apples, shall we? See here, Armenia had 44 NON-COMBAT losses in January-November 2012: kavkaz-news.net/alldaynews/24149-human-rights-watch-v-armenii-armiya-prodolzhaet-nesti-neboevye-poteri.html

That's just *non-combat* losses in 11 months last year. I don't have COMBAT losses for the same period for Armenia, but safe to say they would increase that number. And then came December 2012, when there were additional losses - for example, Davit Sargsyan on December 24: hetq.am/eng/news/21819/

Now, let's consider that Armenia's population is (at best) 3 million people (that includes the 90,000 or so Armenian people in occupied Azerbaijani territories - Azerbaijani sources say 60,000, Armenian sources say 120,000, so I consider an average of these figures).

Then, let's compare with Azerbaijan, whose population is over 9 million - in January-November 2012, their losses were a total of 85 killed in all security structures (i.e., Azerbaijanis publish more openly and transparently a full list from all ministries, not like in Armenia), which includes Ministry of Defense, Ministry of Interior, Ministry of Emergency Situations, Ministry of National Security, Border Protection Service, etc.), including a total of 67 non-combat losses.

Thus, we have 44 non-combat losses in Armenia in 2012 vs. 67 non-combat losses in Azerbaijan in the same period of January-November 2012. A simple arithmetic shows that Armenia is doing TERRIBLY in relative terms, far worse than Azerbaijan (despite having supposedly better morale, supposedly better training, supposedly better skills, supposedly better training, better fortified positions in occupied territories and having to only retain its occupation, whilst Azerbaijan has to liberate its lands - and thus on average having to accept as normal suffering 3-to-1 losses according to common military theory).

Thus, Azerbaijan has 1 non-combat death in all of its security/defense ministries per 134,328 of population, whilst Armenia has 1 Ministry of Defense only soldier/officer per 68,182 of population. That's at least twice worse than Azerbajian in relative terms, before we consider 1) the great secrecy to which Armenia and Armenians seem to be committed (as boasted to us by Kajutyun himself just in the paragraph above), and 2) that the Armenian casualty list only includes MOD, whilst they also have other security ministries just like Azerbaijan.

So keep this in mind when you discuss "relative parity" or even try to explain "relative" to anyone. All things are relative, but one thing is for sure: Armenia is not doing as well as Armenian media and talking heads are saying, whilst Azerbaijan's woes are exaggerated somewhat.

Btw, read about the way Armenian soldiers kill their own - and then get away with murder: azatutyun.am/content/article/24802446.html

Also, Kajutyun, would you care to explain about recent (June 2013) cadre changes in Armenian Ministry of Defense (MOD), such as firing of the Military Commissar of the Republic of Armenia, firing of the Head of the organizational and mobilization department Colonel Arakel Martikyan, and firing of the Commander of the Second Army Corps Major-General Ovik Oganyan? Is it because Armenian army has no non-combat losses in 2013?

 

[gr8vision]

Discussing history with a Turk. Exhilirating...

This hilarious example of racism is just funny to me. I guess I should reply: "discussing history with an Armenian - who doesn't know his own history - exhilarating!"

Well no sh*t. Shahumian was never part of independent Karabakh BECAUSE it is occupied by Azerbaijan.

Mind your manners, please. No need for foul language. "Independent" Karabakh? "Occupied" by Azerbaijan? Are you on drugs?! Smoking some grass perhaps?! Or drinking Armenian cool aid? Because that's the most nonsense anyone has said/written on this forum.

Also, for future reference, I have no intention of arguing correcting the terminology "occupied regions of Azerbaijan." This is sheer idiocy. Occupied according to who? The UN? Who cares.

Yes, according to UN and everyone else in the world - but of course it's "idiocy" since Armenia doesn't "agree". ;-) You are funny.

Do you care when UN says North Cyprus is an occupied territory? No.

Yes, I do care about what UN says.

But wait a minute, UN says North Cyprus is occupied territory? Really? Where does it say that? If you find any UN Security Council resolution that condemns Turkey for occupation of Cyprus, I will give you a cookie - please start, for example, by reviewing all UN SC resolutions in 1974: un.org/en/sc/documents/resolutions/1974.shtml

It just shows once again how little do you know - and how much you don't know.

Also, note the difference between illegal occupation (such as by Armenia) and a legal occupation (such as by U.S. of Iraq and NATO of Afghanistan).

So spare me your BS. Shahumian was Armenian before the word "Azeri/Azerbaijani" was even invented.

Please exclude the letters "BS" from your standard arsenal of responses. It's really tiring - you've frivolously used it in every single of your "responses", showing that you simply have nothing to say and have lost every single point you've attempted to debate me on.

"Shahumian" could not have been Armenian before "Azeri/Azerbaijani" was "invented", my racist Armenian interlocutor! For starters, Azeri/Azerbaijani was "invented" at least 2,300 years ago, around the time of Alexander the Great. Which is long before the Dashnak-Communist Armenian Stepan Shahumyan was born in 1878 - after whom this district of Azerbaijan was named in the 1930's. So before you open your mouth and press your keyboard keys with your fingers, stop and think not once, not twice, but at least three times.

And no, Shahumyan has *never* been Armenian in history. Never.

Wrong. I can't find a non-Armenian source to show you, but if you knew anything about the region you are talking about, you would know that it is geographically indefensible. Yes, Armenians left because they would get pummeled if they stayed. I consider that to be "voluntary"

You can consider anything you want, but you are still wrong. Indeed, pretty much everything you've "considered" has been wrong so far - and this is from the same type of mistakes. Once again - look up in the dictionary the word "voluntary". When you know that you would be defeated, you are not leaving "voluntarily" - you leave under pressure of imminent defeat.

And what is your point? Legal status of land is not determined by if an ethnicity held it at some point. By that logic, Armenians should also be claiming Syria and Israel. And Turkey would have no right to TRNC. It is based on the principle of self-determination, and is therefore liable to change.

I am glad you recognize that - please explain that to Armenians in Armenia.

Nagorno Karbakh is, and for much of history, was dominantly Armenian.

Absolutely and positively NOT TRUE. You do not have ANY evidence of that - indeed, it would be fun to expose your wrongs if you will dare to debate me on this. Please! Bring evidence here that NK was "for much of history" dominantly Armenian. Because I have Russian Imperial, Ottoman, and even Mongol census data that will show you a liar (and please spare your Russophobia and Turcophobia, the Ottomans and Mongols were actually allies with Armenians, so don't you dare trying to cast a shadow of doubt on that historical data).

Despite 70 years of depopulation by Soviet Azerbaijan.

There was no "depopulation" Soviet Azerbaijan - that's a fairy tale you spread. Census/population data from Russian and then Soviet sources in 1917-1921 shows there were roughly 100,000 Armenians in all of historic Karabakh in that period vs. some 400,000 Azerbaijanis at the same time. The gerrymandering of population done by Armenians such as Shahumyan, Mikoyan and others in NK region of Azerbaijan is described in Western scholarly journals.

Thus, due to exercise of free will of the people, NKR is independent.

There can be no "exercise of free will of the people" when that "free will" was "exercised" by ethnic cleansing of 600,000 of Azerbaijanis from all the territories currently occupied by Armenia (whilst the entire population of Armenians on the same lands was around 120,000). So please stop your nonsense.

And the so-called mythical "NKR" is not "independent" and never has been, and has no attributes of an independent country. Indeed, Chechens in Chechnya and drug dealers in Colombia and Mexico are more independent than Bako Sahakyan's military junta in occupied Azerbaijani territories.

HOWEVER, this does not apply in case of genocide. That is why eastern Turkey is rightful Armenian land.

The world seems to disagree with you. And in case you consider that Turks and Kurds committed "genocide" against Armenians in 1915, then you certainly must recognize that Armenians committed genocide against all the Muslims of the Ottoman empire, especially the Turks, Kurds, Circassians, Laz, and others.

However, hundreds of thousands of Azerbaijanis living in what is today known as Armenia before 1990 did make it Azerbaijani - for example, the Irevan Khanate that existed until 1828, and a multitude of other Azerbajiani-Turkic empires in the preceding centuries.

And before you bring up Khojaly BS, realize that the largest estimation of deaths in that event is around 650. Does that sound like a genocide to you?!?! Most of those deaths were due to indiscriminate Azeri shelling anyway.

My Armenian racist interlocutor! 1) Stop using "BS" everywhere. 2) Khojaly Massacre is a proven fact with photo and video proof (unlike the Armenian "genocide", which is not recognized as a genocide by UN, The Hague, or other international courts and bodies). 3) Srebrenica was recognized as a genocide despite "only" about 7,000 deaths, so it's not the numbers that are important - please read the Genocide Convention. The Khojaly Massacre was the largest war crime in all of Caucasus -- and all 800 of its killed were massacred by the Armenian army. Details of that are available from the Human Rights Watch (HQ in New York) and Memorial Center (HQ in Moscow). Several journalists were there in the immediate aftermath, bring eyewitness reports - not reports by Christian missionaries like is the case with Armenian "proof".

Oh yeah, and Nachkichevan is Armenian too. Unless you are one of this " historically enlightened" Turks who believe that Armenians never lived there.

You can write and say whatever you want - there is a freedom of speech. But to convince anyone, you need to provide facts, and you of course do not have them, because Nakhichevan has never been Armenian.

Armenians live in U.S., Russia, India, and Ephiopia - often for centuries. That doesn't make those lands "Armenian". So Armenians living in Nakhichevan in prior centuries doesn't make it Armenian.

BTW, I like how you didn't even try to object to my facts, such as about Tigranes the Great not being Armenian, and the Great Armenia not being an Armenian country. I guess you realized that it's better to not debate this, in hopes that no one else would notice it and forget about it.

For a self-described history enthusiast, you are very poorly informed.

We will let the readers of this forum be the judges of that. ;-)

 

[BronzePlaque]

Please exclude the letters "BS" from your standard arsenal of responses. It's really tiring - you've frivolously used it in every single of your "responses", showing that you simply have nothing to say and have lost every single point you've attempted to debate me on.

ouch... good pwnage right there

 

[Baykuş]

@gr8vision

I highly admire your patience and willingness to bust every shameful lie that you-know-who spits out, but I must warn you that you are debating with one of Armenia's Ministry of Disinformation's rogues. They are stuck in in a repeating cycle of ridiculing and ignoring every single fact you present them, as long as it doesn't match their interest.

 

[-SINAN-]

That is why eastern Turkey is rightful Armenian land. A

I had no idea, Armenians were eyeing our land.

If that's case, let me show you the"rightful Turkish land."

 

[Kajutyun]

@gr8vision: I have no intention of reading the epic full of lies that you just wrote.

Consider it a tactical victory for yourself.

 

[gr8vision]

[MENTION=147344]Yes. I am aware of non-combat losses in Armenian Army. Wanna hear something cool? Since January, APA has reported 53 deaths of Azerbaijani military personnel. And it hasn't been even half a year yet.

BTW, all losses of human lives are unfortunate, and I will not fall to your level Kajutyun to celebrate as "cool" the unfortunate deaths, *especially* non-combat death of mostly 18-20 year old soldiers who, on top of this, are also conscripts (i.e., not volunteer professional soldiers who chose to be in the army)! I think I would speak for everyone here, especially for Americans, Turks, Azerbaijanis and Pakistanis, when I will remind my Armenian racist interlocutor of the great words of Ataturk, a leader Armenia never had and if you reflect the youth of today's Armenia, never will have: "...rest in peace. There is no difference between the Johnnies and the Mehmets to us where they lie side by side now here in this country of ours... you, the mothers, who sent their sons from faraway countries wipe away your tears; your sons are now lying in our bosom and are in peace. After having lost their lives on this land they have become our sons as well." Read more here from an Australian government website: awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/ataturk.asp

Meanwhile, let's scrutinize your figures. I did not see the APA report you refer to - please provide verification. What I do have is their source, which is Doctrina Center, who posted this statistics at of June 20, 2013 on their facebook page: facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=481266468621327&id=133490353398942

The entire losses of all Azerbaijani military/security sector (all ministries, including MOD) were 49 people in January-June 2013. Not 53 as Kajutyun wrote, citing an undisclosed APA news report.

Of the 49, some 8 were killed by Armenians, and the rest 41 died from non-combat reasons: 6 from drowning, falling, electric shock, fire or falling under a tank during exercises), 9 died in car accidents, 3 died in a well-publicized helicopter malfunction, 2 from unknown reasons, 1 from some general carelessness, 5 from illnesses, 10 committed suicide, 5 from some illegal actions (doesn't specify which).

Of the total 49 dead from all reasons (combat and non-combat), only 39 (80%) were from the Ministry of Defense. The other 10 (20%) were: 1 from Border Protection Service, 7 from Ministry of Interior, 1 from Special Protection Service, 1 from Ministry of Emergency Situations.

Of the 39 Azerbaijani MOD soldiers/officers who died so far in 2013, 8 were killed by Armenians. Thus the rest, 31, are non-combat deaths.

It would be interesting to compare with Armenian statistic for 2013, even though Armenians are much more secretive, and only seem to publish MOD statistic. We know Armenians lost 19-year old Luks Stepanyan in May 2013 and had Hrachya Vaghinak Sargsyan with a severe gun shot to his head (even if won't die, will most likely be in dire heath condition for the remainder of his life).

Two things for sure - Armenia suffers more in relative terms than Azerbaijan, and both will continue to have high non-combat losses as long as they have conscripts and a very low percentage of professional soldiers.

One other thing - when it comes to deaths of 18-20 year old healthy males, RELATIVE statistics becomes extremely important, because for such a small nation as Armenia, losing 1 healthy young male (future of the nation!) per 68,182 of the general population definitely hurts more than Azerbaijan's 1 young healthy male per 134,328 of the general population. And when we consider that demographically speaking, Armenia every year sees a reduction in population, whilst Azerbaijan an addition (in just 20 years, according to official sources, Azerbaijani population grew by 2 million, whilst Armenia's was reduced by 1.2 million), then the strategic picture becomes more clear-cut.

It's unfortunate that the Armenian nation is a prisoner of its own racism (clearly exemplified here on this forum by their forum member), that prefers to ethnically cleanse, massacre other people and occupy other people's lands (Aghdam is Armenian? Fizuli is Armenian? Jebrayil is Armenian? KHANKENDI (the historic name of "Stepanakert") is Armenian? Shusha (which doesn't mean anything in Armenian language, and translates only from Azerbaijani language) is Armenian? C'mon!) For as long as that occupation of Azerbaijani lands will continue, Armenia will be paying a very high price - it is one of the least happy nations in the world and some 50% of its people want to emigrate from there ASAP (oh, and according to Western polls, NK problem is not even the #1 problem for Armenians - they care more about economy, unemployment, jobs and inflation).

@gr8vision: I have no intention of reading the epic full of lies that you just wrote.

Consider it a tactical victory for yourself.

I had no doubts that you would throw in the white flag in light of all the flags. And I haven't even warmed up yet....

 

[Kajutyun]

@gr8vision: on second thought, make your points more concise an I will respond to them.

EDIT: Fine -_-...I cant resist.

BTW, all losses of human lives are unfortunate, and I will not fall to your level Kajutyun to celebrate as "cool" the unfortunate deaths, *especially* non-combat death of mostly 18-20 year old soldiers who, on top of this, are also conscripts (i.e., not volunteer professional soldiers who chose to be in the army)!

Nope. You and your compatriots have committed genocide against 1.5 million Armenians. You have no right to speak like this.

Meanwhile, let's scrutinize your figures. I did not see the APA report you refer to - please provide verification. What I do have is their source, which is Doctrina Center, who posted this statistics at of June 20, 2013 on their facebook page: facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=481266468621327&id=133490353398942

I'm keeping a spreadsheet of individual publications. Feel free to believe more, or not. Couldn't care less.

Here is what I will say though. The statistics you are pulling for the Azerbaijani side are....you'll love this....BS. There is no independent press in Azerbaijan, even for the agencies that are supposedly private. Thus, you are a mouthpiece for the Azeri government, which is the same entity that makes up excuses for deaths. Congrats.

You evidently follow Armenian media. So tell me. Why do we not have countless deaths from "accidental service rifle misfires" or from conscripts "falling off of dining hall roofs" (my personal favorite)? Clearly, it's because there are for deaths related to hazing and such then the government wants to let be known. Either that Azeri army is really effing stupid.

Two things for sure - Armenia suffers more in relative terms than Azerbaijan, and both will continue to have high non-combat losses as long as they have conscripts and a very low percentage of professional soldiers.

Why is that genius? Armenian + Karabakhi army are almost same size as Azeri army.

It's unfortunate that the Armenian nation is a prisoner of its own racism (clearly exemplified here on this forum by their forum member), that prefers to ethnically cleanse, massacre other people and occupy other people's lands (Aghdam is Armenian? Fizuli is Armenian? Jebrayil is Armenian? KHANKENDI (the historic name of "Stepanakert") is Armenian? Shusha (which doesn't mean anything in Armenian language, and translates only from Azerbaijani language) is Armenian? C'mon!) For as long as that occupation of Azerbaijani lands will continue, Armenia will be paying a very high price - it is one of the least happy nations in the world and some 50% of its people want to emigrate from there ASAP (oh, and according to Western polls, NK problem is not even the #1 problem for Armenians - they care more about economy, unemployment, jobs and inflation).

I know it hurts your feelings when I make fun of your ignorance, but I'm afraid I will have to do so again. First of all, if you're so smart, then you would know that the Armenian name is Shushi. Just because you renamed it does not mean that it was that name forever. I know you think you are good at history, but you have yet to prove logic skills.

Thank you for a summary of my nations problems. It is unfortunate, I will not argue that. But the people of Karabakh are a free people, and call Armenians whatever you want but they are not cowards. And we will not surrender our land for peace.

And then there is this:

Yes, I do care about what UN says.

Khojaly Massacre is a proven fact with photo and video proof

But since UN has not recognized it as genocide, then by extension neither do you .

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You have simply overwhelmed me with BS gr8vision. From now on, please keep posts and responses concise, because I don't want to give the impression that I agree with your lies just because I do not want to respond to essays. Feel free to paraphrase what you have said thus far, because I can easily prove that none of it contains an ounce of truth.

I will abide by this rule as well from now on.

 

[gr8vision]

@gr8vision: on second thought, make your points more concise an I will respond to them.

EDIT: Fine -_-...I cant resist.

Then let the fun continue!

Nope. You and your compatriots have committed genocide against 1.5 million Armenians. You have no right to speak like this.

Neither I, nor my compatriots have committed any genocide, against anyone, particularly Armenians.

Also, not to break your bubble, but total Armenian losses in WWI were much less than 1.5 million - they were around 600,000 according to Encyclopedia Britannica. So please stop inflating numbers and spreading propaganda. You can't fool anyone, someone will always call you out as a liar that you are.

I'm keeping a spreadsheet of individual publications. Feel free to believe more, or not. Couldn't care less.

Great, please copy and paste that "spreadsheet" that you so meticulously keep. Also, decide what is your source: APA, to which you referred before, or your own spreadsheet (from the Ministry of Information of Armenia)? Because it can't really be both - APA is a serious source, your spreadsheet is not.

Here is what I will say though. The statistics you are pulling for the Azerbaijani side are....you'll love this....BS. There is no independent press in Azerbaijan, even for the agencies that are supposedly private. Thus, you are a mouthpiece for the Azeri government, which is the same entity that makes up excuses for deaths. Congrats.

Firstly, there is no independent press in Armenia. Armenia is a dictatorship - and when your people protest protest, they get killed in the dozens, like it happened in 2008. So please, save your rhetoric for someone else.

Secondly, at least the Azerbaijanis have been open and honest, admitting all deaths and wounding's, and not keeping them secret like Armenians, or using various tricks, like reporting only the death of those from the Republic of Armenia, and suppressing the death's figures of those born in occupied Azerbaijani lands whom they conveniently count as soldiers of some non-existing "NKR".

Thirdly, I guess because you've been described by other forum members as an Armenia government operative, you decided to level a similar accusation at everyone else - probably because according to you, "best defense is attack". It's funny, because over the years, on various forums, I've been accused of being an American, Israeli, Turkish, Russian, Iranian, Azerbaijani, and other "official". That's fine - although I wish they all paid me as well, that would have been nice.

You evidently follow Armenian media. So tell me. Why do we not have countless deaths from "accidental service rifle misfires" or from conscripts "falling off of dining hall roofs" (my personal favorite)? Clearly, it's because there are for deaths related to hazing and such then the government wants to let be known. Either that Azeri army is really effing stupid.

Evidently you don't follow Armenian media as well as independent media following Armenian military, because Armenian army has the basically same reasons for non-combat deaths as Azerbaijani army. I gave you like a dozen links to Armenian sources. Let's see a few more:

Conscript soldier Artem Hakobyan born in 1994 died in the central military hospital on January 18, at 05:30 local time. The conscript was under treatment in the hospital from January 13, 2013.

This is the third case of conscript death due to health problems over the last two months. On January 17, conscript soldier Armenak Mkrtchyan died of acute cardiopulmonary insufficiency in the central military hospital. According to doctors, cardiopulmonary decompensation may be caused by acute heath failure or pulmonary embolism.

On December 23, 2012, 18-year conscript Norayr Sahakyan died in the hospital. Both death cases are now being prosecuted. - See more at: arka.am/en/news/incidents/conscript_dies_in_military_hospital_in_armenia/


On February 21, at around 9:30am an extraordinary incident occurred in an NKR military unit resulting in the death of the conscript Karen Hakobyan born in 1994 - See more at: lragir.am/index.php/eng/0/country/71475/29030


On March 20 at about 7:05 pm in one of the military units of Defense Army located in northeastern section Volodya Avakian Sedraki born in 1993 was deadly wounded in the military position. More: a1plus.am/en/official/2013/03/21/zinvor

Narek Karapetyan (whose name has been changed by ArmeniaNow due to the nature of the charges), of Vanadzor, was transported from the military unit in Talish to the Yerevan Military Hospital where he told military police that he has undergone continuous rapes since he was conscripted and assigned to the post May 10 of last year.
Karapetyan, 18, who is fearful of giving many details, says that he was raped soon after arriving at the post. armenianow.com/news/6189/violence_in_the_ranks_army_conscri

Examples can go on - once again, Armenia has a greater number of losses on a relative scale than Azerbaijan. In fact, Armenia has at least twice more non-combat losses than Azerbaijan in terms of relative comparison (and since we know that Kajutyun is such a big lover of the word "relative" and educating this forum about the importance of relative comparison, apparently writing many pearls here on this topic, I cannot but feel inspired and provide these relative statistics from official or otherwise authoritative sources).

Why is that genius? Armenian + Karabakhi army are almost same size as Azeri army.

First of all, that is not true, but then you can claim that "almost" is a relative term and you meant this or that. ;-)

According to the IISS (The Military Balance 2013) the Armenian armed forces (land + air force) is 45,850, plus 21,363 stationed illegally in the occupied Azerbaijani territories (see: Blandy, C. W. "Azerbaijan: Is War Over Nagornyy Karabakh a Realistic Option?" Advanced Research and Assessment Group. Defence Academy of the United Kingdom, Caucasus Series 08/17, 2008, p.16). So that's a total of about 68,000 total for Armenia.

Meanwhile, the Azerbaijani Land Forces number 85,000 according to C. W. Blandy (Azerbaijan: Is War Over Nagornyy Karabakh a Realistic Option? Advanced Research and Assessment Group. Caucasus Series 08/17. — Defence Academy of the United Kingdom, 2008, p.12). Plus airforce and navy, and of course not counting all other military-security ministries which would also be used somewhat. Plus mobilization potential which is much larger in Azerbaijan. And let us not forget around 25 million Azerbaijanis in Iran, who have a wealth of military experience and expertise, that cannot be matched by the much smaller Armenian diaspora.

But let's for a second agree that the Armenian army (everyone, including its expeditionary corps in occupied Karabakh region of Azerbaijan) is "almost" the same size as Azerbaijani - since 85,000 land forces of Azerbaijan against 68,000 of combined total forces of Armenia can count as "almost". Then you actually undermine yourself, because it shows that Armenia already has twice larger non-combat casualties in relative terms than Azerbaijan. And if we start adjusting these figures to account for a larger Azerbaijani and smaller Armenian army, then the disparity would grow higher, and reveal that the Armenian army is actually more unprofessional than Azerbaijani.

I know it hurts your feelings when I make fun of your ignorance, but I'm afraid I will have to do so again. First of all, if you're so smart, then you would know that the Armenian name is Shushi. Just because you renamed it does not mean that it was that name forever. I know you think you are good at history, but you have yet to prove logic skills.

"Shushi" is a recent Armenian invention, and does not translate from Armenian language - whether modern Armenian, or ancient Armenian. It is meaningless. Which makes no sense - why would "ancient Armenians" give a meaningless name to "their" city? Meanwhile, "newcomers" Azerbaijanis gave a meaningful name? So 1:0 for Azerbaijanis.

Thank you for a summary of my nations problems. It is unfortunate, I will not argue that. But the people of Karabakh are a free people, and call Armenians whatever you want but they are not cowards. And we will not surrender our land for peace.

I never called anyone cowards, so please spare us of your pseudo-patriotic mumbo-jumbo. Karabakh is not "your land". It is the land of Azerbaijani people, who according to the last Soviet census of 1989 made up 75% of all those territories from which they were ethnically cleansed (and they made up 75% in 1917, and they made up 75% and more in 1805 when Azerbaijani Karabakh Khanate joined Russia as a Muslim kingdom, and Azerbaijanis were majority before that too).

Meanwhile, the "people of Karabakh", who mostly live in refugee camps in unoccupied parts of Azerbaijan, are more free than the Armenian residents of occupied Karabakh.