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Autonomy Under Indian Constitution: An Old Pragmatic Approach To Kashmir or a Recipe for Disaster?

I can give you a discourse on fighting an insurgency .. but what will that achieve?

Is it okay to rape innocent women in the name of fighting an insurgency ?

Give it a rest mate. I know, and You know it too that Most of the Indian Hindus don't mind Hindu and Sikh Forces raping Muslim women or killing Muslim men (In Kashmir, or anywhere else).
 
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Please abrogate article 370 .

The only reason jk state is part of india is because article 370 states application of this article will allow jk state to be declared part of india.. Remove the article and off goes the article 1 of Indian constitution adding kashmir state as its part in first schedule list.

Bjp is well aware of this condition set by article 370 hence you do not see the real efforts by them to tale it down. Because in that case a legal route authorized by constitution will be formed for jk people to demand separation. Lol


Thanks for the support from Indian members who support article 370's abrogation.

@Arsalan @Azlan Haider
 
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Please abrogate article 370 .

The only reason jk state is part of india is because article 370 states application of this article will allow jk state to be declared part of india.. Remove the article and off goes the article 1 of Indian constitution adding kashmir state as its part in first schedule list.

Bjp is well aware of this condition set by article 370 hence you do not see the real efforts by them to tale it down. Because in that case a legal route authorized by contiruiom will be formed for jk people to demand separation. Lol


Thanks for the support from Indian members who support article 370's abrogation.

@Arsalan @Azlan Haider
Supreme Court to examine inviolability of Article 370
Dhananjay Mahapatra| TNN | Updated: Nov 25, 2016, 02.47 AM IST

  • SC has agreed to examine the inviolability attached to Article 370 of the Constitution
  • The Article confers special status on Ja&K in comparison to other states
  • The bench agreed to make the Union government a party to the proceedings
55610113.jpg
(File photo)
NEW DELHI: For the first time, the Supreme Court has agreed to examine the inviolability attached to Article 370 of the Constitution which confers special status on Jammu and Kashmir in comparison to other states.

A bench of Justices S A Bobde and Ashok Bhushan agreed to take up this issue for scrutiny nearly a year after entertaining an appeal challenging a J&K High Court judgment striking down reservation in promotion to SC/ST employees of the state government.

In the same judgment, the HC had termed Article 370 as inviolable by ruling that even Parliament had no power to amend the provision. This was questioned in a fresh application filed by the petitioner's counsel. The bench agreed to make the Union government a party to the proceedings and asked the petitioner to provide attorney general Mukul Rohatgi with a copy of the plea.

Senior advocate A Mariarputham said those who challenged reservation in promotion for SCs/STs in writ petitions filed in the HC had not raised the issue of inviolability of Article 370. Yet, the HC took the view that "Article 370, even though shown as a temporary provision, is a permanent provision in the Constitution and no changes in Article 370 can be made by the President of India, and more importantly, the HC has held that even Parliament cannot make changes in Article 370".

The HC had held, "Resultantly, Article 370, notwithstanding its title showing it as a 'temporary provision', is a permanent provision of the Constitution. It cannot be abrogated, repealed or even amended as mechanism provided under Clause (3) of Article 370 is no more available. Furthermore, Article 368 (the amending power of Parliament) cannot be pressed into service in this regard, inasmuch as it does not control Article 370 - a self contained provision of the Constitution.

The petitioners challenged the HC's views and said Parliament's power was curtailed only with regard to basic structure provisions of the Constitution as per the SC's landmark Kesavananda Bharati case. "Article 370 is not a part of the basic structure of the Constitution of India and, as such, is not outside the amending power of Parliament under Article 368."
 
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Please abrogate article 370 .

The only reason jk state is part of india is because article 370 states application of this article will allow jk state to be declared part of india.. Remove the article and off goes the article 1 of Indian constitution adding kashmir state as its part in first schedule list.

Bjp is well aware of this condition set by article 370 hence you do not see the real efforts by them to tale it down. Because in that case a legal route authorized by constitution will be formed for jk people to demand separation. Lol


Thanks for the support from Indian members who support article 370's abrogation.

@Arsalan @Azlan Haider

I'm afraid that isn't correct.

J&K State was part of India, and would have been part of India, with or without Article 370. All that Article 370 did was to say that pending the adoption of an independent constitution by J&K State, the existing provisions of the Instrument of Accession would be exercised by the Union of India, and all other legislation would be applied only through a one-time ordinance issued by the Governor-General, soon to be the President of the Indian Republic.

Many of the 561 states acceded to India; a small handful acceded to Pakistan, being situated within the territory of Pakistan and not being eligible to declare for India. All those who acceded to India were encouraged to join the Constituent Assembly, or to form their own. Most failed to do so; only a handful of progressive states set up their own constituent assemblies, made some suggestions which were taken into consideration by the Indian Constituent Assembly and dealt with, some by acceptance, some by modification, and some by rejection. Thereafter, most of these state-based assemblies agreed to take the Indian Constitution as their governing constitution; no provision had to be made for them.

J&K set up a Constituent Assembly but this continued its effort to frame a constitution for the state. It became clear that the constitution-building effort by the state would take longer than the Indian Constitution, so some mechanism was necessary to take care of the situation when there would be a full-fledged Indian Constitution but an unadopted J&K Constitution. There was no guarantee that in its final form, the J&K Constitution would fully conform to the Indian Constitution's proposed relations between the Union and the constituent states.

That was why Article 370 was included; J&K State was already part of the Indian Union, so it would have to come under the Indian Constitution, but it had also set out to form its own constitution, and the differences between the two, if any, would have to be dealt with, both during the period that the Indian Constitution was ready and the J&K Constitution was under formation, and during the subsequent period when both the Indian Constitution and the J&K State Constitution were in force.

Article 370 basically says that until the J&K Constituent Assembly informs the Union legislature of India that the requirement does not exist any more, all legislation by the Union legislature OTHER THAN ON DEFENCE, FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND COMMUNICATIONS would apply to the J&K State only with the concurrence of the J&K Constituent Assembly (and, by implication, its direct successor, the J&K State Legislature).

That is all.

The current legal position is that the J&K Constituent Assembly dissolved itself (it did not adjourn, it fully dissolved itself) without informing the central legislature that it could abrogate Article 370. It did not pass on that duty to the State Legislature. So Article 370 can only be removed by the recommendation of the State Constituent Assembly, and that body no longer exists.

According to the prevalent body of legal opinion, Article 370 cannot be removed from the Indian Constitution.

The BJP has been hell-bent on removing it, but it could not make headway due to the very strong legal opinion that this was impossible. It has nothing to do with any shadowy reason that abrogating it would endanger the accession of J&K State to India by removing Kashmir from Article 1; abrogating it would endanger the accession of J&K State to India by subverting the terms of the accession.
 
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Please abrogate article 370 .

The only reason jk state is part of india is because article 370 states application of this article will allow jk state to be declared part of india.. Remove the article and off goes the article 1 of Indian constitution adding kashmir state as its part in first schedule list.

Bjp is well aware of this condition set by article 370 hence you do not see the real efforts by them to tale it down. Because in that case a legal route authorized by constitution will be formed for jk people to demand separation. Lol


Thanks for the support from Indian members who support article 370's abrogation.

@Arsalan @Azlan Haider


Yes, what you say is right.


If the ‘constituent assembly’ in Jammu & Kashmir passes a resolution to abrogate Article 370. It will be sent to the Indian Parliament, which if passes it with a majority will then be sent to the Supreme Court for judicial review. The judicial review will imply that the Article 370 is the binding feature of the ‘accession’ of Jammu & Kashmir with India. That if it is abrogated it will nullify and invalidate the instrument of accession, the state will cease to be part of the Indian Constitution. Deeming the Indian presence as ‘illegal occupation’ and without any basis in law according to the Indian Law books.



And under International Law, Article 370 has zero value anyway, as the United Nations Security Council in its Resolutions 91 (1951 )and 122 (1957) had unequivocally declared that convening of the constituent Assembly in Kashmir and its decisions, would not prejudice the final disposition of the State of Jammu and Kashmir in accordance with the will of people expressed through a free and impartial plebiscite held under UN auspices. UN representatives have clarified on various occasions that these UN Resolutions, like other UN Resolutions on Kashmir, are still valid .....

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The Simla Agreement: Help or Hindrance
By
Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai

December 2, 2016

The mass uprising of the people of Kashmir against Indian military occupation has evoked two reactions from the Government of India. One is extreme repression and the second is the threat of war. On September 24, 2016, Mr. Narendra Modi, the Prime Minister of India made a formal statement with full authority: “Pakistan’s ‘awam’ (people), I want to say to you, India is ready to fight you.” He added, “We will isolate you. I will work for that.”

The world powers, including the U.S. has exerted no influence in restraining this belligerent rhetoric. There is also not the slightest sign yet of even a beginning being made towards a meaningful peace process, eliminating the danger of war between these two nuclear countries. The present situation has made it abundantly clear that the status quo in Kashmir is both unjust and untenable. It has thus thrown into sharp relief the urgent need for India and Pakistan to settle the 69-year old Kashmir dispute on a just and lasting basis.

The question arises: what should be the point of departure for determining a just and lasting basis? The answer obviously is (a) the Charter of the United Nations which, in its very first article, speaks of "respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of peoples" and (b) the international agreements between the parties to the dispute.

India and Pakistan have concluded multiple agreements which fall in this context. The first is embodied in the resolutions adopted by the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP) on 13 August 1948 and second on 5 January 1949. These resolutions constitute an agreement because, unlike most resolutions of the Security Council, their provisions were first negotiated with the parties and, in written statements, explicitly accepted by them.

The first resolution is written out in detail and is self-explanatory. Since it binds both India and Pakistan to respect the verdict of the people of Kashmir to be obtained through a free vote under the impartial supervision of the United Nations. India seeks to propagate the impression that it has been superseded by the Simla Agreement. That the implication is false can be readily seen from a comparison of the two texts. But even if it were true, it would run counter to a standing principle of international relations which is set out in Article 103 of the Charter of the United Nations (accepted by every Member of the United Nations, including India). The Article says:

"In the event of a conflict between the obligations of the Members of the United Nations under the present Charter and their obligations under any other international agreement, their obligations under the present Charter shall prevail."

What, then, is the relevance of the Simla Agreement as far as instituting a peace process between India and Pakistan, fully recognizing Kashmiri’s inherent right of self-determination, is concerned?

The pertinent facts about the Simla Agreement are:

i. It was concluded in the aftermath of the India-Pakistan war of 1971 over what is now Bangladesh. Pakistan had suffered a decisive military defeat and 93,000 Pakistani prisoners-of-war were in Indian captivity. The factor of duress in thus obvious.

ii. Despite this circumstance, the Agreement nowhere precludes a settlement of the Kashmir dispute along the lines laid down by the United Nations with the consent of both India and Pakistan. Nor does it require that the United Nations be by-passed in the effort towards a settlement. On the contrary, it expressly says that the relations between the two countries shall be governed by the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations. One of the basic principles of the Charter (Article 33) is to seek a solution of any dispute by negotiation, enquiry, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements or other peaceful means. The linked principle (Article 34) is that the Security Council may investigate any dispute and (Article 36) at any stage recommend appropriate procedures or methods of adjustment. The Simla Agreement thus reinforces the obligations of both parties to achieve a settlement in accordance with the resolutions endorsed by the Security Council and, if their bilateral efforts fail, to turn to the United Nations for assistance. Nothing would be more contrary to the Charter -- and, therefore, to the Simla Agreement itself -- than to bar recourse to the United Nations.

iii. The Simla Agreement makes mention of "a final settlement of Jammu and Kashmir" as one of the objectives of the two parties.

iv. It provides that, pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation. This obviously is not a license for leaving problem unresolved. If anything, it implies a commitment to making efforts towards a final settlement.

v. The Simla Agreement says that "in Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the cease-fire of 17 December 1971 shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side". To " respect" the line means not to cross it militarily; it dose not convert the line to a legally accepted international frontier. This is clear from the words that the "respect" will be "without prejudice to the recognized position of either side".

vi. The position consistently maintained by Pakistan that the status of Kashmir shall be decided by an impartial plebiscite has been recognized by the United Nations and, as it is identical with the position which India itself originally assumed at the world body, it is reflected in more than dozen substantive resolutions of the Security Council. A position safeguarded by the phrase "without prejudice to" can hardly be deemed to have been abandoned.

vii. In its preamble, the agreement states the resolve of the two governments to establish durable peace in the subcontinent. Durable peace results from setting the outstanding disputes, not from denying its existence.

It is thus a misconception that the Simla Agreement has in any way superseded the resolutions of the United Nations accepted by both parties. Nor can it be supposed to have narrowed the gulf between them and, to that extent, simplified the task of evolving a settlement. Even if it has done so, its impact on the Kashmir situation would have been open to question. Nothing in international law confers on two parties the authority to make decisions or conclude agreements which adversely affect the rights of a third. The third party here is the people of Kashmir.

Why is the Simla Agreement put in the forefront rather than the resolutions of the United Nations? There can be several explanations. One is deference to India because of its superior might. If this motivates the current diplomatic stance of the world powers, including the United States, it is, to say the least, undignified and contrary to the enduring principles of U.S. policy towards all situations which involve inalienable human rights. Another reason can be the impression that the Simla Agreement, being of more recent origin than the resolutions of the United Nations, might be more effective in activating the process. This is wrong in view of the fact that, for 44 years, the Agreement has signally failed to shake India out of its obdurate refusal to negotiate a settlement of the Kashmir problem. The current Indian position is that India is prepared to talk but there is nothing to talk about except how to crush the popular resistance in Kashmir and perpetuate the status quo.

If non-implementation were to render an agreement defunct, then the Simla Agreement is in no better state than the earlier, far more concrete and comprehensive resolution painstakingly worked out by the United Nations and concluded under its auspices in 1948-49. If passage of time were allowed to extinguish solemn international agreements, then the Simla Agreement has already suffered the same fate as the resolutions of the United Nations. If agreements are to be revived, then why one and not the other?

It may also be that the Simla Agreement is being invoked because of lack of knowledge about its actual terms and the circumstances in which it was signed. India is taking full advantage of this factor to spread the misinformation that the Simla Agreement sanctions the perpetuation of the status quo in Kashmir and absolves her from the responsibility of striving for a settlement of the dispute. By citing the Simla Agreement at this stage, or encouraging others to do so, India obviously seeks to prevent those basic issues of the dispute being addressed that were fully taken into account by the United Nations. The Simla Agreement is pressed into service as a formula for evasion.

A sincere and serious effort towards a just settlement of the Kashmir dispute must squarely deal with the realities of the situation and fully respond to the people's rights involved in it. The Simla Agreement does neither. Indeed, it was not intended to do so; at best, it is reticent on the issues that need to be grappled with. A peace process mounted on its fragile platform is bound to collapse. Indeed, any process that ignores the wishes of the people of Kashmir and is designed to sidetrack the United Nations will not only prove to be an exercise in futility but can also cause incalculable human and political damage.
 
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The Simla Agreement: Help or Hindrance
By
Dr. Ghulam Nabi Fai

December 2, 2016

The mass uprising of the people of Kashmir against Indian military occupation has evoked two reactions from the Government of India. One is extreme repression and the second is the threat of war. On September 24, 2016, Mr. Narendra Modi, the Prime Minister of India made a formal statement with full authority: “Pakistan’s ‘awam’ (people), I want to say to you, India is ready to fight you.” He added, “We will isolate you. I will work for that.”

The world powers, including the U.S. has exerted no influence in restraining this belligerent rhetoric. There is also not the slightest sign yet of even a beginning being made towards a meaningful peace process, eliminating the danger of war between these two nuclear countries. The present situation has made it abundantly clear that the status quo in Kashmir is both unjust and untenable. It has thus thrown into sharp relief the urgent need for India and Pakistan to settle the 69-year old Kashmir dispute on a just and lasting basis.

The question arises: what should be the point of departure for determining a just and lasting basis? The answer obviously is (a) the Charter of the United Nations which, in its very first article, speaks of "respect for the principles of equal rights and self-determination of peoples" and (b) the international agreements between the parties to the dispute.

India and Pakistan have concluded multiple agreements which fall in this context. The first is embodied in the resolutions adopted by the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP) on 13 August 1948 and second on 5 January 1949. These resolutions constitute an agreement because, unlike most resolutions of the Security Council, their provisions were first negotiated with the parties and, in written statements, explicitly accepted by them.

The first resolution is written out in detail and is self-explanatory. Since it binds both India and Pakistan to respect the verdict of the people of Kashmir to be obtained through a free vote under the impartial supervision of the United Nations. India seeks to propagate the impression that it has been superseded by the Simla Agreement. That the implication is false can be readily seen from a comparison of the two texts. But even if it were true, it would run counter to a standing principle of international relations which is set out in Article 103 of the Charter of the United Nations (accepted by every Member of the United Nations, including India). The Article says:

"In the event of a conflict between the obligations of the Members of the United Nations under the present Charter and their obligations under any other international agreement, their obligations under the present Charter shall prevail."

What, then, is the relevance of the Simla Agreement as far as instituting a peace process between India and Pakistan, fully recognizing Kashmiri’s inherent right of self-determination, is concerned?

The pertinent facts about the Simla Agreement are:

i. It was concluded in the aftermath of the India-Pakistan war of 1971 over what is now Bangladesh. Pakistan had suffered a decisive military defeat and 93,000 Pakistani prisoners-of-war were in Indian captivity. The factor of duress in thus obvious.

ii. Despite this circumstance, the Agreement nowhere precludes a settlement of the Kashmir dispute along the lines laid down by the United Nations with the consent of both India and Pakistan. Nor does it require that the United Nations be by-passed in the effort towards a settlement. On the contrary, it expressly says that the relations between the two countries shall be governed by the principles and purposes of the Charter of the United Nations. One of the basic principles of the Charter (Article 33) is to seek a solution of any dispute by negotiation, enquiry, conciliation, arbitration, judicial settlement, resort to regional agencies or arrangements or other peaceful means. The linked principle (Article 34) is that the Security Council may investigate any dispute and (Article 36) at any stage recommend appropriate procedures or methods of adjustment. The Simla Agreement thus reinforces the obligations of both parties to achieve a settlement in accordance with the resolutions endorsed by the Security Council and, if their bilateral efforts fail, to turn to the United Nations for assistance. Nothing would be more contrary to the Charter -- and, therefore, to the Simla Agreement itself -- than to bar recourse to the United Nations.

iii. The Simla Agreement makes mention of "a final settlement of Jammu and Kashmir" as one of the objectives of the two parties.

iv. It provides that, pending the final settlement of any of the problems between the two countries, neither side shall unilaterally alter the situation. This obviously is not a license for leaving problem unresolved. If anything, it implies a commitment to making efforts towards a final settlement.

v. The Simla Agreement says that "in Jammu and Kashmir, the line of control resulting from the cease-fire of 17 December 1971 shall be respected by both sides without prejudice to the recognized position of either side". To " respect" the line means not to cross it militarily; it dose not convert the line to a legally accepted international frontier. This is clear from the words that the "respect" will be "without prejudice to the recognized position of either side".

vi. The position consistently maintained by Pakistan that the status of Kashmir shall be decided by an impartial plebiscite has been recognized by the United Nations and, as it is identical with the position which India itself originally assumed at the world body, it is reflected in more than dozen substantive resolutions of the Security Council. A position safeguarded by the phrase "without prejudice to" can hardly be deemed to have been abandoned.

vii. In its preamble, the agreement states the resolve of the two governments to establish durable peace in the subcontinent. Durable peace results from setting the outstanding disputes, not from denying its existence.

It is thus a misconception that the Simla Agreement has in any way superseded the resolutions of the United Nations accepted by both parties. Nor can it be supposed to have narrowed the gulf between them and, to that extent, simplified the task of evolving a settlement. Even if it has done so, its impact on the Kashmir situation would have been open to question. Nothing in international law confers on two parties the authority to make decisions or conclude agreements which adversely affect the rights of a third. The third party here is the people of Kashmir.

Why is the Simla Agreement put in the forefront rather than the resolutions of the United Nations? There can be several explanations. One is deference to India because of its superior might. If this motivates the current diplomatic stance of the world powers, including the United States, it is, to say the least, undignified and contrary to the enduring principles of U.S. policy towards all situations which involve inalienable human rights. Another reason can be the impression that the Simla Agreement, being of more recent origin than the resolutions of the United Nations, might be more effective in activating the process. This is wrong in view of the fact that, for 44 years, the Agreement has signally failed to shake India out of its obdurate refusal to negotiate a settlement of the Kashmir problem. The current Indian position is that India is prepared to talk but there is nothing to talk about except how to crush the popular resistance in Kashmir and perpetuate the status quo.

If non-implementation were to render an agreement defunct, then the Simla Agreement is in no better state than the earlier, far more concrete and comprehensive resolution painstakingly worked out by the United Nations and concluded under its auspices in 1948-49. If passage of time were allowed to extinguish solemn international agreements, then the Simla Agreement has already suffered the same fate as the resolutions of the United Nations. If agreements are to be revived, then why one and not the other?

It may also be that the Simla Agreement is being invoked because of lack of knowledge about its actual terms and the circumstances in which it was signed. India is taking full advantage of this factor to spread the misinformation that the Simla Agreement sanctions the perpetuation of the status quo in Kashmir and absolves her from the responsibility of striving for a settlement of the dispute. By citing the Simla Agreement at this stage, or encouraging others to do so, India obviously seeks to prevent those basic issues of the dispute being addressed that were fully taken into account by the United Nations. The Simla Agreement is pressed into service as a formula for evasion.

A sincere and serious effort towards a just settlement of the Kashmir dispute must squarely deal with the realities of the situation and fully respond to the people's rights involved in it. The Simla Agreement does neither. Indeed, it was not intended to do so; at best, it is reticent on the issues that need to be grappled with. A peace process mounted on its fragile platform is bound to collapse. Indeed, any process that ignores the wishes of the people of Kashmir and is designed to sidetrack the United Nations will not only prove to be an exercise in futility but can also cause incalculable human and political damage.

Two Three quick points

1 You have said that so called Indian Occupation in Kashmir is Unjust and Untenable. That may be Pakistan's Views but India views that since the Maharaja signed the Instrument of Accession We have justifiable claim for the land. Possession is considered Nine Tenth's of the Ownership. We possess the land and also have an Instrument of accession to back it. Pakistan may cry that it is unjustifiable but the unfortunate fact is that It cant do anything else. (See my signature for our view)

Regarding the Untenable part It has been proven over the last 70 years that India has more than enough wherewithal to hold on to the land. The current Status Quo suits us. You have tried everything from 4 wars to firing across LoC, to terrorism ,to supporting dimwits like Burhan Wani, to Stone Pelting mobs. The list goes on and on. nothing that Pakistan has done or can do will compel India to hold a plebiscite or gift Kashmir to Pakistan.

Why dont you put your money where your mouth is. Try to give India an offer it cant refuse. Name a price which you think India will agree and buy off Kashmir. Just like US purchased Alaska from Russia. You people like to say Indians are Banias. Let me tell you one quality of a Bania. They like to negotiate and will not back down from a great deal. If you dont have the money ask your Ummah friends or your deeper than ocean, higher than Himalayas friend to lend you some money

2 The UN Resolution has been discussed to death in N number of threads. A quick recap of our views regarding the same
(a) The resolution has some preconditions one of the most important one is that Pakitan should first withdraw its forces then India will do so.this Condition has never been met and is not likely to ever been meeting
(b) Even if by some miracle the precondition is met the current scenario in the region is completely different and so the plebiscite cant be held
(c) The resolution is non binding so it cant be legally enforced
Simply put the UN resolution is not worth the paper it is printed on

3 The Shimla Agreement clearly states that the dispute is a bilateral matter and any third party intervention will be only if both parties agree. India will never agree to get UN to intervene so you can keep on waiting

To sum up
(1) Pakistan has no power to try and change the status quo
(2) The UN resolution is non binding with pre conditions which cant be met
(3) The Shimla Agreement gives India the power to veto any third party intervention
 
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I was reading the quote above and few things quickly came to mind.

Whatever has been quoted above is India's opinion and cannot change the fact so few quick words as udner:-


Kashmir is not something on sale or to buy and reading such words, it is prominent that how India underestimated or I must say insulted the Kashmir hence, India try to rule the land of Kashmir but can never win or rule the hearts and it is the reason that Kashmiri People do not want the Indian occupation at all. One thing is loud and clear, into such talks/settlement or any negotiation, Kashmir is the important party and not only Pakistan-India, therefore, India has been denying the talks.

Furthermore, the Claim is merely a Claim not the royalty/ownership, which is based upon forcible occupation but more and to that, still the real Claim which worth and carries more wait, is what Kashmiris saying themselves as "The freedom of Kashmir" which is not conditioned to be the part of Pakistan but Kashmiris wish only. This is exactly India try to paint that Pakistan wants to integrate the Kashmir into Pakistan and IMO, Pakistan is supporting the Kashmir cause which is their right of Determination and Freedom as an independent Kashmir. Just to say as one is Azad Kashmir (Independent Kashmir) and the other part India use to claim as Indian part which speaks volume that Pakistan do not want to include Kashmir into otherwise, Pakistan would have claimed the Azad Kashmir as Pakistan and be declared a province etc.

Whatever is mentioned in the signature is and indian opinion and doesn't effect or change the fact at all however, it is in favour of India contrary to the ground realities in IoK.

Shimla Agreement is not a total binding on Kashmir but an agreement between Pakistan and India that wouldn't need to got to the UN every time (in other words wouldn't need to wait for the UN sessions) but will settle the matter with each other through direct dialogue. But on other hand, it was stated that in-case any party try to violate the agreement by its any clause, the other party is at liberty to knock the door of UN. Pakistan wants to include Kashmiris into talks and India is avoiding the fact so also lingering on the process by avoiding the talks through different excuses, therefore, Pakistan is at liberty to go to the UN otherwise, by such agreement via Indian words, UN wouldn't be concerning about the human rights violation and unrest in IoK and could have denied or rejected Pakistan's submission in this matter.

Even Sushma Sawaraj in last session, as with all in the past, did not mention what you are trying to say here w.r.t. no UN into Kashmir talks, in short. India should have clearly stated in UN that after Shimla Agreement, UN has no authority or any say in Kashmir issue but never done so and you know why, because it is not the real fact nor can be implemented or accepted at all. These so-called lines are only propagated to mislead and misguide the public through media etc means otherwise, India should go to the UN settle the same under the circumstances whatever stated above quoted, once for all rather than denying the access to UNHRC in IoK being afraid of exposure of India's human rights violation.

Yes, India would be expecting a deal or an offer but that is only possible against something which belongs to India but in-case of Kashmir, IoK doesn't want to be under the rule of India at all and is not the part of India but a disputed area, hence, all protests and resistance and no ownership of India at all otherwise, the same would have been certified by UN.
 
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I was reading the quote above and few things quickly came to mind.

Whatever has been quoted above is India's opinion and cannot change the fact so few quick words as udner:-


Kashmir is not something on sale or to buy and reading such words, it is prominent that how India underestimated or I must say insulted the Kashmir hence, India try to rule the land of Kashmir but can never win or rule the hearts and it is the reason that Kashmiri People do not want the Indian occupation at all. One thing is loud and clear, into such talks/settlement or any negotiation, Kashmir is the important party and not only Pakistan-India, therefore, India has been denying the talks.

Furthermore, the Claim is merely a Claim not the royalty/ownership, which is based upon forcible occupation but more and to that, still the real Claim which worth and carries more wait, is what Kashmiris saying themselves as "The freedom of Kashmir" which is not conditioned to be the part of Pakistan but Kashmiris wish only. This is exactly India try to paint that Pakistan wants to integrate the Kashmir into Pakistan and IMO, Pakistan is supporting the Kashmir cause which is their right of Determination and Freedom as an independent Kashmir. Just to say as one is Azad Kashmir (Independent Kashmir) and the other part India use to claim as Indian part which speaks volume that Pakistan do not want to include Kashmir into otherwise, Pakistan would have claimed the Azad Kashmir as Pakistan and be declared a province etc.

Whatever is mentioned in the signature is and indian opinion and doesn't effect or change the fact at all however, it is in favour of India contrary to the ground realities in IoK.

Shimla Agreement is not a total binding on Kashmir but an agreement between Pakistan and India that wouldn't need to got to the UN every time (in other words wouldn't need to wait for the UN sessions) but will settle the matter with each other through direct dialogue. But on other hand, it was stated that in-case any party try to violate the agreement by its any clause, the other party is at liberty to knock the door of UN. Pakistan wants to include Kashmiris into talks and India is avoiding the fact so also lingering on the process by avoiding the talks through different excuses, therefore, Pakistan is at liberty to go to the UN otherwise, by such agreement via Indian words, UN wouldn't be concerning about the human rights violation and unrest in IoK and could have denied or rejected Pakistan's submission in this matter.

Even Sushma Sawaraj in last session, as with all in the past, did not mention what you are trying to say here w.r.t. no UN into Kashmir talks, in short. India should have clearly stated in UN that after Shimla Agreement, UN has no authority or any say in Kashmir issue but never done so and you know why, because it is not the real fact nor can be implemented or accepted at all. These so-called lines are only propagated to mislead and misguide the public through media etc means otherwise, India should go to the UN settle the same under the circumstances whatever stated above quoted, once for all rather than denying the access to UNHRC in IoK being afraid of exposure of India's human rights violation.

Yes, India would be expecting a deal or an offer but that is only possible against something which belongs to India but in-case of Kashmir, IoK doesn't want to be under the rule of India at all and is not the part of India but a disputed area, hence, all protests and resistance and no ownership of India at all otherwise, the same would have been certified by UN.
Whatever be your opinion you are free to have it and express it as I am free to have and express opinion from Indian perspective

The fact of the matter is that the current Status Quo suits India just fine and Pakistan is under no position or power to change it.

You must remember Newton's second law of motion which states that body in motion will remain in motion and body at rest will remain at rest till external force acts on it.similarly till Pakistan and/or Kashmiris get enough force to change India's position noting else can happen
 
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Whatever be your opinion you are free to have it and express it as I am free to have and express opinion from Indian perspective

You can, no issue at all.


The fact of the matter is that the current Status Quo suits India just fine and Pakistan is under no position or power to change it.

The power lies with Kashmiris and their struggle and Pakistan only support the cause. The current status-quo is being challenged and opposed by Kashmiris through their protests, opposition, strikes, fight for the freedom etc so India cannot maintain such at all due to the real opposition by Kashmiris and if it was only related to Pakistan, then wouldn't have such impact but contrary to that, India is worried because it is actually resisted by the real owners of the Kashmir against illegal occupation which cannot be suppressed by force. Even voices started to rise inside India as well against the GoI mishandling and negligence in IoK as well as the atrocities causing human rights violation at large.

"A stone in hand of Kashmiris against India is actually a stone in Heart for India"

You must remember Newton's second law of motion which states that body in motion will remain in motion and body at rest will remain at rest till external force acts on it.similarly till Pakistan and/or Kashmiris get enough force to change India's position noting else can happen

The law is right but Indian side actually misquoted the parties into this equation as the Body in Movement is actually Kashmir Rise/Kashmir freedom struggle that you miss to see and Pakistan is supporting the movement of Kashmir that we are not dead hence cannot be called body at rest. The most suited formula could be "Every Action has a reaction" so by such law, Indian action against the will and wish of the people will cause a reaction of anger and more resistance that India cannot break the chain of Law at all.
 
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You can, no issue at all.




The power lies with Kashmiris and their struggle and Pakistan only support the cause. The current status-quo is being challenged and opposed by Kashmiris through their protests, opposition, strikes, fight for the freedom etc so India cannot maintain such at all due to the real opposition by Kashmiris and if it was only related to Pakistan, then wouldn't have such impact but contrary to that, India is worried because it is actually resisted by the real owners of the Kashmir against illegal occupation which cannot be suppressed by force. Even voices started to rise inside India as well against the GoI mishandling and negligence in IoK as well as the atrocities causing human rights violation at large.

"A stone in hand of Kashmiris against India is actually a stone in Heart for India"



The law is right but Indian side actually misquoted the parties into this equation as the Body in Movement is actually Kashmir Rise/Kashmir freedom struggle that you miss to see and Pakistan is supporting the movement of Kashmir that we are not dead hence cannot be called body at rest. The most suited formula could be "Every Action has a reaction" so by such law, Indian action against the will and wish of the people will cause a reaction of anger and more resistance that India cannot break the chain of Law at all.
I am not denying that some Kashmiris are doing strikes, stone Pelting, Shutdowns etc and this is also effecting majority of peace loving people of Kashmir. It is also a fact that Pakisstan is supporting such acts by funds and weapons.

However these are mere pinpricks for India and will not effect India's Position.

Second when you say to bring Kashmiris into talks why do you not talk to the elected representatives of Kashmir - The State Govt? Why do you want to talk to Hurriats and Geelanis Who do noting but disrupt the peace process and have never won a single election
 
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