Australian French angle to India’s Quest for Nuclear Attack Submarines ?

[surya kiran]

Guys, check it out but according to official word and more so public opinion,
Oz doesn't WANT nuclear vessels, period.

But due to its size and location, it must have the best submarines available.

Hence the need to have a complex program re-engineering top class SSN
technology with a precise mission equipment sourcing thrown in.

India's needs are very different.

Good day all, Tay.

The discussion is to have a sub based on the Barracuda and somewhere along the line, its being reported as a SSN for Australia. There is a chance of a SSK based on the Barracuda being selected by both India an Australia. But, unless, there is a major change in the Australian strategy...seems highly unlikely. Who would be threatened by an Australian SSN and who would the Australian Navy want to keep an eye on, with an SSN (meaning far from its waters). If the answer is China, that is a very big change in posturing....hence, highly unlikely.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Just have a look to the number of russian nuclear subs sunk..... Last one was Koursk. It's a little bit worrying isn't it?

Just have a look to Yasen sub : very big (more than a Lafayette SSBN class !), probably very costly, very late on shedule (built from 1990...).

See the last russian sub : Lada SSK = A failure . I'm afraid they have lost some of their previous skill with end of cold war. You need a stronger partner.


Okay, okay.... I'm french..... so I 'm a little bit biased

But for a country developing Nuclear submarines with negligible Nuk sub technologies the Russian help has been massive. French do cost us an dime Russians have went out of their way in helping India realise Nuclear ambitions.

So let's say. I am a lil biased On the other hand, I would vote for Scorpene for P75I or 6 more follow up Scorpene for the existing order.

 

[Taygibay]

hence, highly unlikely.

And yet ...

There is a chance of a SSK based on the Barracuda being selected by both India an Australia.

No, there isn't! Oz asked specifically that their design be unavailable in the large South Pac zone.
Thus, if India wants our Top Barracuda, it must be a nuclear powered variant. QED.

Good day my friend, Tay.

 

[BON PLAN]

If I remember well, no nuclear sub was never sold, but only rent (russian sub to India).

First 80% attempt is the brazilian project, in which DCNS help Brazil to study and produce a nuclear sub with a brazilian reactor... I would be very surprised if we don't give us some help on that point.... It's like integration of a powerplant on a liner : the two parts need a strong relationship and many many talks and adjustments to be sure it's a success (or not. see the Falcon 5X in this case ).

 

[Nilgiri]

If I remember well, no nuclear sub was never sold, but only rent (russian sub to India).

First 80% attempt is the brazilian project, in which DCNS help Brazil to study and produce a nuclear sub with a brazilian reactor... I would be very surprised if we don't give us some help on that point.... It's like integration of a powerplant on a liner : the two parts need a strong relationship and many many talks and adjustments to be sure it's a success (or not. see the Falcon 5X in this case ).

French gave significant assistance to India's nuclear reactor miniaturisation as well.

You can read what I had to say about it in this post:

https://defence.pk/threads/india-to...marines-navy-chief.411943/page-8#post-7962498

@Vergennes @Taygibay

 

[BON PLAN]

Does anyone have some information about a F21 torpedo deal ?

 

[Ind4Ever]

Australian French angle to India’s Quest for Nuclear Attack Submarines ?

Published August 11, 2016 SOURCE: Anand SG / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

India might be lead subcontractor for the supply of components to the submarine project involving Australia and France said a recent media reports . In parallel India and France have started initial conversations in partnership for construction of Six new indigenously developed attack Nuclear submarines for Indian Navy .

Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A which Australia has selected is conventionally powered diesel electric derivative of Barracuda class submarines that are nuclear attack subs (SSN) of French Navy and for long DCNS has been in talks with India to offer this derivative to India under India navies Project75I program under which Indian navy plans to acquire Six new next generation Conventional submarines .

Both Australia and India are been persuaded by France with one eye on SSN option for which they are open to provide assistance. While traditionally Russia has been India traditional partner when it comes to Nuclear assistance , Winner of Project75I might hold answers to who will collaborate on India’s Six SSN project next .

India Navy already operates Single Russian supplied AkulaII Class Nuclear attack submarine under its fleet and is keen on acquiring one more attack nuclear submarine from Russia on a longterm lease for which Indian and Russian officials had talks .

India is keen on leasing Russia’s latest Project 885 Yasenclass nuclear powered attack submarine which is improved up variant of AkulaII submarines and India is also keen on developing new line of indigenous nuclear attack submarine in collaboration with Russia based on Yasen class submarines , but French too are eyeing this lucrative deal with India and have been offering collaboration on SSN in lieu of orders for Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A under Project75I .

Barracuda SSN is state of the art submarine built for French navy to deal with an evergrowing array of challenges . The first submarine of this class SSN Suffren is scheduled to enter service with French Navy in 2017. Six Barracudas will be acquired by 2027 by French Navy .

Source: http://idrw.org/australian-french-angle-to-indias-quest-for-nuclear-attack-submarines/

Comment:

Even though source is idrw, please take this news as a hint of what NSA Ajit Doval has been negotiating over a 18 months period.

Anybody who has followed Rafale Sticky knows that i have said beyond Rafale there is a string of other projects where we will get French cooperation. The SSN design will be Indian and technology will be from French and Russian side. Especially Barracuda technology will be a substantial percentage.

I had hinted here clearly that DCNS will get a key role going forward and will be involved in Scorpenes, SSNs and IAC2 project as well.

I said also the route will be via either L&T Areva for the reactor or P75I SMX being selected to get this deal officially done or a combination.

The interest in Project 885 as part of goodies is also there in the sticky when Goodies on Table offered by Russia to stop Rafale deal and divert the investments into Russian arms were discussed.

All this was revealed almost 6-8 months ago in the sticky and now slowly info in public domain is out.

Expect more goodies will be formally leaked out as we draw towards the CCS approval for Rafale expected in coming days.

It ain't gonna happen with India . At least not for P75I. DCNS of France is the winner of Australia's $50 billion (US$38.54 billion) program. For 12 SSK.

Our P75I, 6 SSK for 60000 crore. Which is around 8 billion USD. More than 3 times the price of our quote. How will it even go through. SSN project management by France will lead to more price escalation for Tot involved on nuclear powered subs.

Am highly speculative. Germany willing to offer at most ToT possible to India next to Russia.

Let's see

 

[BON PLAN]

It ain't gonna happen with India . At least not for P75I. DCNS of France is the winner of Australia's $50 billion (US$38.54 billion) program. For 12 SSK.

Our P75I, 6 SSK for 60000 crore. Which is around 8 billion USD. More than 3 times the price of our quote. How will it even go through. SSN project management by France will lead to more price escalation for Tot involved on nuclear powered subs.

Am highly speculative. Germany willing to offer at most ToT possible to India next to Russia.

Let's see

2 shortfalls with Germany:
- No expertise in nuclear reactor (for SSN)
- No expertise in more than +/- 2000 tons sub

It ain't gonna happen with India . At least not for P75I. DCNS of France is the winner of Australia's $50 billion (US$38.54 billion) program. For 12 SSK.

Our P75I, 6 SSK for 60000 crore. Which is around 8 billion USD. More than 3 times the price of our quote. How will it even go through. SSN project management by France will lead to more price escalation for Tot involved on nuclear powered subs.

Am highly speculative. Germany willing to offer at most ToT possible to India next to Russia.

Let's see

It is rumored than 4 or 6 of the 12 subs for Australia may become nuclear ones....

 

[Taygibay]

It ain't gonna happen with India . At least not for P75I. DCNS of France is the winner of Australia's $50 billion (US$38.54 billion) program. For 12 SSK.

Our P75I, 6 SSK for 60000 crore. Which is around 8 billion USD. More than 3 times the price of our quote. How will it even go through. SSN project management by France will lead to more price escalation for Tot involved on nuclear powered subs.

50 B$ is the whole contract value, mate; you're doing the same thing as when
folks divide jet fighters deals by number of planes.

That 50 covers, development, integration of an American made warfare system
so Oz is compatible with its strongest local ally, building those new boats and the
bases for them, all expected maintenance for lifetime use, main weapons and so on.

On a different stroke, Bon Plan mec, as right as you were to point out that Germany
won't make nuke driven subs for anyone since they lack the knowledge, the Aussies
will not, or at least are highly unlikely to, get nuclear vessels any time soon.
It runs contrary to the land's present ways and public opinion.
Maybe for the next tender, who knows but not this time around.

Have a great day both, Tay.

 

[BON PLAN]

On a different stroke, Bon Plan mec, as right as you were to point out that Germany
won't make nuke driven subs for anyone since they lack the knowledge, the Aussies
will not, or at least are highly unlikely, get nuclear vessels any time soon.
It runs contrary to the land's present ways and public opinion.
Maybe for the next tender, who knows but not this time around.

It's not what we can read in some french newspapers.
1) It's unclear how many subs they will finally take (between 6 and 12).
2) The last ones could be nuclear powered, as it is a direct derivative of the Barracuda nuc sub, intended to begin trials in French navy in 2017. I think it's a possible way for Australia in case of tension with China (already started). Australia is a stable and strong ally so as to clear that way (as with Canada in another time for Rubis nuc sub... finally without result)

 

[Taygibay]

It's not what we can read in some french newspapers.

Don't read French newspapers then :

Talking Points

Australia's position on nuclear weapons is clear - we are committed to the goal of a world free of nuclear weapons.

The Government has consistently said that it wants to see deep and irreversible reductions in the numbers of nuclear weapons held by all nuclear-armed states.

However, we recognise that this is a long-term process and that in a world where nuclear disarmament has not yet been achieved, Australia's security benefits from extended nuclear deterrence under the US alliance.

Ifasked: about Australia's record on nuclear weapons

Australia has a long-standing record on nuclear non-proliferation and disarmament, including support for the entry into· force of the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and for universalising the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Australia supported the New Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty signed between the US and Russia in April 2010. and will continue to support a reduced role for nuclear weapons in the national security strategies of nuclear armed states, including the US.


That is from here.

Do check the underline segments to get a clear view of Australia's
dilemma on deterrence.

Other points are everywhere : http://www.nti.org/learn/countries/australia/
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/austr...ons-hopelessly-conflicted-20140410-zqt9l.html
http://www.icanw.org/au/australias-conflicted-position-on-nuclear-weapons/
https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2008_04/Lantis

It won't happen anytime soon; maybe for the next tender in 2050+!

Bonjour chez vous Tay.

 

[BON PLAN]

Don't read French newspapers then :

Talking Points

Australia's position on nuclear weapons is clear - we are committed to the goal of a world free of nuclear weapons.

The Government has consistently said that it wants to see deep and irreversible reductions in the numbers of nuclear weapons held by all nuclear-armed states.

However, we recognise that this is a long-term process and that in a world where nuclear disarmament has not yet been achieved, Australia's security benefits from extended nuclear deterrence under the US alliance.

Ifasked: about Australia's record on nuclear weapons

Australia has a long-standing record on nuclear non-proliferation and disarmament, including support for the entry into· force of the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty and for universalising the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Australia supported the New Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty signed between the US and Russia in April 2010. and will continue to support a reduced role for nuclear weapons in the national security strategies of nuclear armed states, including the US.


That is from here.

Do check the underline segments to get a clear view of Australia's
dilemma on deterrence.

Other points are everywhere : http://www.nti.org/learn/countries/australia/
http://www.smh.com.au/comment/austr...ons-hopelessly-conflicted-20140410-zqt9l.html
http://www.icanw.org/au/australias-conflicted-position-on-nuclear-weapons/
https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2008_04/Lantis

It won't happen anytime soon; maybe for the next tender in 2050+!

Bonjour chez vous Tay.

Dear and precious Sir,

I'm french, so I read french news papers.... sorry for that

I was not speaking of nuclear weapons, but nuclear powered attack subs (SSN instead of SSK).
France will never sell nuclear weapons.... the sole counter example in this field was when we gave some technical help to Isrël some dozen years ago... but keep quiet.... it's a state secret....

And what are the news from India about F21 torpedoes ?

 

[Ind4Ever]

Australian French angle to India’s Quest for Nuclear Attack Submarines ?

Published August 11, 2016 SOURCE: Anand SG / FOR MY TAKE / IDRW.ORG

India might be lead subcontractor for the supply of components to the submarine project involving Australia and France said a recent media reports . In parallel India and France have started initial conversations in partnership for construction of Six new indigenously developed attack Nuclear submarines for Indian Navy .

Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A which Australia has selected is conventionally powered diesel electric derivative of Barracuda class submarines that are nuclear attack subs (SSN) of French Navy and for long DCNS has been in talks with India to offer this derivative to India under India navies Project75I program under which Indian navy plans to acquire Six new next generation Conventional submarines .

Both Australia and India are been persuaded by France with one eye on SSN option for which they are open to provide assistance. While traditionally Russia has been India traditional partner when it comes to Nuclear assistance , Winner of Project75I might hold answers to who will collaborate on India’s Six SSN project next .

India Navy already operates Single Russian supplied AkulaII Class Nuclear attack submarine under its fleet and is keen on acquiring one more attack nuclear submarine from Russia on a longterm lease for which Indian and Russian officials had talks .

India is keen on leasing Russia’s latest Project 885 Yasenclass nuclear powered attack submarine which is improved up variant of AkulaII submarines and India is also keen on developing new line of indigenous nuclear attack submarine in collaboration with Russia based on Yasen class submarines , but French too are eyeing this lucrative deal with India and have been offering collaboration on SSN in lieu of orders for Shortfin Barracuda Block 1A under Project75I .

Barracuda SSN is state of the art submarine built for French navy to deal with an evergrowing array of challenges . The first submarine of this class SSN Suffren is scheduled to enter service with French Navy in 2017. Six Barracudas will be acquired by 2027 by French Navy .

Source: http://idrw.org/australian-french-angle-to-indias-quest-for-nuclear-attack-submarines/

Comment:

Even though source is idrw, please take this news as a hint of what NSA Ajit Doval has been negotiating over a 18 months period.

Anybody who has followed Rafale Sticky knows that i have said beyond Rafale there is a string of other projects where we will get French cooperation. The SSN design will be Indian and technology will be from French and Russian side. Especially Barracuda technology will be a substantial percentage.

I had hinted here clearly that DCNS will get a key role going forward and will be involved in Scorpenes, SSNs and IAC2 project as well.

I said also the route will be via either L&T Areva for the reactor or P75I SMX being selected to get this deal officially done or a combination.

The interest in Project 885 as part of goodies is also there in the sticky when Goodies on Table offered by Russia to stop Rafale deal and divert the investments into Russian arms were discussed.

All this was revealed almost 6-8 months ago in the sticky and now slowly info in public domain is out.

Expect more goodies will be formally leaked out as we draw towards the CCS approval for Rafale expected in coming days.

It ain't gonna happen with India . At least not for P75I. DCNS of France is the winner of Australia's $50 billion (US$38.54 billion) program. For 12 SSK.

Our P75I, 6 SSK for 60000 crore. Which is around 8 billion USD. More than 3 times the price of our quote. How will it even go through. SSN project management by France will lead to more price escalation for Tot involved on nuclear powered subs.

Am highly speculative. Germany willing to offer at most ToT possible to India next to Russia but with more comfortable

50 B$ is the whole contract value, mate; you're doing the same thing as when
folks divide jet fighters deals by number of planes.

That 50 covers, development, integration of an American made warfare system
so Oz is compatible with its strongest local ally, building those new boats and the
bases for them, all expected maintenance for lifetime use, main weapons and so on.

On a different stroke, Bon Plan mec, as right as you were to point out that Germany
won't make nuke driven subs for anyone since they lack the knowledge, the Aussies
will not, or at least are highly unlikely to, get nuclear vessels any time soon.
It runs contrary to the land's present ways and public opinion.
Maybe for the next tender, who knows but not this time around.

Have a great day both, Tay.

You are underestimating our bargaining skills. P75I as per our rules should be built in India, 30%+ reinvestment in Tot or else where. But Tot is the must in this contract. And we all know France is so adamant on price. So it's not gonna happen. If it does then it's all for good. . .

2 shortfalls with Germany:
- No expertise in nuclear reactor (for SSN)
- No expertise in more than +/- 2000 tons sub


It is rumored than 4 or 6 of the 12 subs for Australia may become nuclear ones....

On ur expertise questions : India already poses enough expertise to power next generation SSBN even today. We have sufficient resources to idolize SSN reactors with Akula class

On GRT : Our Arihant itself over 6000 grt . All we need is a design and expertise in technology to make integration am faster and easier. . Our plan don't stop with SSN. We have plans to build at least 10 - 12 Ssk to replace kilos and German boats. 4 Arihant SSBN, 12 SSN 6 Advanced SSBN. Germans can help with SSK, Russians and French with SSBN and SSN. I don't think we will pay 20 billion for 6 submarine (SSK) we don't need that my all we need is increase number of kilos to 12, 6+ 4 follow on P75, Larger 6 P75 I. Then go for indigenous SSK SSN SSBN. . . We can't afford to pay that much money. Our Vishal itself gonna cost navy and country a huge chunk of its budgets.

 

[BON PLAN]

It ain't gonna happen with India . At least not for P75I. DCNS of France is the winner of Australia's $50 billion (US$38.54 billion) program. For 12 SSK.

Our P75I, 6 SSK for 60000 crore. Which is around 8 billion USD. More than 3 times the price of our quote. How will it even go through. SSN project management by France will lead to more price escalation for Tot involved on nuclear powered subs.

Am highly speculative. Germany willing to offer at most ToT possible to India next to Russia but with more comfortable


You are underestimating our bargaining skills. P75I as per our rules should be built in India, 30%+ reinvestment in Tot or else where. But Tot is the must in this contract. And we all know France is so adamant on price. So it's not gonna happen. If it does then it's all for good. . .



On ur expertise questions : India already poses enough expertise to power next generation SSBN even today. We have sufficient resources to idolize SSN reactors with Akula class

On GRT : Our Arihant itself over 6000 grt . All we need is a design and expertise in technology to make integration am faster and easier. . Our plan don't stop with SSN. We have plans to build at least 10 - 12 Ssk to replace kilos and German boats. 4 Arihant SSBN, 12 SSN 6 Advanced SSBN. Germans can help with SSK, Russians and French with SSBN and SSN. I don't think we will pay 20 billion for 6 submarine (SSK) we don't need that my all we need is increase number of kilos to 12, 6+ 4 follow on P75, Larger 6 P75 I. Then go for indigenous SSK SSN SSBN. . . We can't afford to pay that much money. Our Vishal itself gonna cost navy and country a huge chunk of its budgets.

You can't compare the price of Barracuda short fin (4000 tons +, all with AIP) with the price of a Scorpene sub (+/-2000 tons, only 2 of the 6 for india with AIP)...

 

[Ind4Ever]

You can't compare the price of Barracuda short fin (4000 tons +, all with AIP) with the price of a Scorpene sub (+/-2000 tons, only 2 of the 6 for india with AIP)...

Our requirements for? P75I : 6 numbers, Tot, all built in indian shipyard, Bigger than P75 (Scorpene).Which is around 3000-4000T. we have allocated 50,000 crore rupees. Around 8-9 billion USD. India bought Russian Akula for 2 billion USD in the name of lease. Like 1 billion for 10 years. Another 1 billion for 10 more years. Buy then this SSN would be replaced. . . Our aim for SSN is 3 billion per Sub. With good ToT and technical design support. So another lot will be lesser with more indigenous equipments.

How in the world we could pay 20 billions for 6 SSK. Even if it's with complete ToT. We would get better deal with Russians or Germany. Rumors are that Non magnetic hull been proposed by Germany with complete ToT know how on their 214 with some sensitive equipments. Which will be replaced with India's own favorite. So basically German have good chances of winning this deal. Russians already upgrading our kilos on other hand 2-3 more new kilos and 1 akula under advanced stage of procurement.

India soon will sign follow on orders with France 4. More. We are upgrading German 209 boats so P75I will complete magical number of 10 over all. 10 Scorpene 10 German 10 kilos 10 SSN SSBN by 2027/30.


Now tell me will we buy ridiculously priced French Auzzie subs? Both French and Auzzie trying to pull India in to reduce the over cost