Attack on security convoy in NW; 12 soldiers martyred

[Xeric]

Army getting killed its own men

If given a chance, how many of you would do that, raise hands!

 

[blain2]

The first ones to flee are the leaders. The foot soldiers take the brunt of the Army operations. Having watched this thing for a long time, I can tell you that sooner or later some of the top people will get captured or killed. Currently there is a lot of room for these folks to move around. The entire qabaili ilaaqa (tribal area) is open to them. The first thing that these chaps have done is to move into more secure areas beyond Swat. Secondly this is a big place. Interestingly enough it was the Times or Newsweek which had broken a story about Mullah Omar fleeing on the back of a motorcycle when cornered, never to be found again. So while the leadership is of prime importance, it is also very difficult to hunt down. Pakistan has absolutely no reason to let these folks around given that such immense casualties and financial shocks are being taken due to their violence.

The ones who doubt will continue to doubt because it is sort of ingrained when it comes to Pakistan. Those who are fighting on the ground know that nothing is being held back and nobody is being protected.

 

[blain2]

Army getting killed its own men

If given a chance, how many of you would do that, raise hands!

Yaar these Army walay are a very sinister group. They do these sort of things all the time. Who cares if a CO has to be slaughtered along with his 2IC and many others...after all who cares about their grieving families and since when has Army given a damn about their own? Also since when does the Army care about the morale of its officers and troops after such incidents?..I am sure the ones who planned this operation (including Kiyani) must be celebrating this amazing own goal operation to turn the public opinion around (which by the way is already turned around by a margin of almost 80&#37...

Khuda ki qassam, ghairon ki tau aur baat hai, appnay logon per hairaani hoti hai aisee waahiyaat baatain sun kar.

 

[Xeric]

Yaar these Army walay are a very sinister group. They do these sort of things all the time. Who cares if a CO has to be slaughtered along with his 2IC and many others...after all who cares about their grieving families and since when has Army given a damn about their own? Also since when does the Army care about the morale of its officers and troops after such incidents?..I am sure the ones who planned this operation (including Kiyani) must be celebrating this amazing own goal operation to turn the public opinion around (which by the way is already turned around by a margin of almost 80%)...

Someone dies in one corner of Pakistan and his comrades burn in the other. We talk, blog, call their families, pray, look after, remeberr them for ever. We dont sleep well when we know someone got injured or embraced sahdat! How can we. They ones whom you have spent most of your life, even more time that you actually have spent with your own family, how can you think of doing something bad to them. This holds guud for everyone, the high ups didnt just got commissioned from PMA and sat on the Corps Commander's chair.

i remeber once a General of our unit paid a visit to the unit, we took him to troops' recreation room where a pic of one of hour shaheed was displayed, the General left us and went straight for the pic and stood in front of him. He kept there staring at the pic for sometime. We never dared to interfere with his mediating process, he took out his handkerchief, cleaned off the dust on the pic, touched the pic as if he was stroking the face of a son he have met a long time back, saluted him and then shunted us why the hell the frame of that pic has gone bad! Now he was 'th' General who talked with the family of that sepoy atleast once in a few months and he had also made the unit responsible to remain in contact with the shaheed's family for guud. There was nothing unusual if you found him calling us; hey hy didnt you tell me that his (the sepoy's) son had secured a position in 8th class, did you send him some gift etc etc.

Now if that's the way the Army 'pamper' their men i dont think someone should dare doubt the commitment and should keep the conspiracy theories for some other times!!

Khuda ki qassam, ghairon ki tau aur baat hai, appnay logon per hairaani hoti hai aisee waahiyaat baatain sun kar.

Yehi tu rona bai Blain bhai:

Meri kashti waha doobi jahan pani kam tha
Apno nay hamain loota, gairon main kaha dum tha!

 

[batmannow]

Someone dies in one corner of Pakistan and his comrades burn in the other. We talk, blog, call their families, pray, look after, remeberr them for ever. We dont sleep well when we know someone got injured or embraced sahdat! How can we. They ones whom you have spent most of your life, even more time that you actually have spent with your own family, how can you think of doing something bad to them. This holds guud for everyone, the high ups didnt just got commissioned from PMA and sat on the Corps Commander's chair.

i remeber once a General of our unit paid a visit to the unit, we took him to troops' recreation room where a pic of one of hour shaheed was displayed, the General left us and went straight for the pic and stood in front of him. He kept there staring at the pic for sometime. We never dared to interfere with his mediating process, he took out his handkerchief, cleaned off the dust on the pic, touched the pic as if he was stroking the face of a son he have met a long time back, saluted him and then shunted us why the hell the frame of that pic has gone bad! Now he was 'th' General who talked with the family of that sepoy atleast once in a few months and he had also made the unit responsible to remain in contact with the shaheed's family for guud. There was nothing unusual if you found him calling us; hey hy didnt you tell me that his (the sepoy's) son had secured a position in 8th class, did you send him some gift etc etc.

Now if that's the way the Army 'pamper' their men i dont think someone should dare doubt the commitment and should keep the conspiracy theories for some other times!!


Yehi tu rona bai Blain bhai:

Meri kashti waha doobi jahan pani kam tha
Apno nay hamain loota, gairon main kaha dum tha!

thts what ammericans thought about us , in 90s !
and now its the same, our troops commitment is far more stronger, but we need to , concentrate on the mission planning, & good recon?
its very old, very old!
the tradition of keeping in touch , with the fammilies of thr\e "shaheeds" had remian old, same as the time when "KARGIL" was executed, but thn ! we had to engage the"real enemy" india?
i guss, more secure planing is required here in "waziristan", also we got more good news , tht we are about to get a deal from "FRANCE- TIGER" helis, it will surly make our missions more safer and our troops advancing towards the "R E A L - enemy" called "TALIBANS"

I guss, our genrls have to work harder, these days!
i wish them , good luck ! after all they are humans?

 

[iPhone]

it's such a dishartening and sad news......

I went through this thread page by page and aeriel support for convoys seems like a very effective counter ambush strategy. Now forgive me for my lack of miltary knowledge, as there are some genuine miltary experts here, lack of air support due to over-stretched resources makes sense but the army can't spare a single heli, forget gunship heli, just a regular helicopter which can get a bird eye view of the sorrounding and report melicous activity down to the convoy. I think the military can do at least that.
to my understanding, PA was complacent and got caught off guard by a suddenly friend turned enemy.

 

[blain2]

My own opinion is that small tactical UAVs would be the solution here with data links to the convoys so they themselves can scan the horizon in front and prepare themselves for such ambushes.

The challenge would be funding and also the capability to put terminals on vehicles or with troops so they can see what is up ahead before they get there. I believe the technology is definitely there, how and at what cost it is accessible to the PA is the question.

Check out Raven being used in a tactical role. Hand-held that can be transported with convoys and launched when dangerous terrain comes up ahead.

I can bet that the resolution afforded by even something as small as the Raven would have provided a very good input to troops in that convoy.

While its USD 30,000 you actually get 3 of these UAVs and ancillary equipment (spares, computer for viewing the camera feed etc.) inclusive, I am sure some of the Pakistani companies are already making UAVs of this sort. This can be a decent solution. While not providing coverage 24x7, but in areas that are deemed risky, they can conduct very good recce for the convoys on the move.

 

[MastanKhan]

MK,

Respectfully, sab ko aqal kay nakhun chabaanay ki zarroorat hai. There are no ongoing hostilities in North Waziristan. You think the Army wants to open up another front by simply letting a Lt Col and many others with him get slaughtered just to start off a fight? There are very many other ways to do this and the Army does not need to sacrifice their men in such way just to gain sympathy when 80% of the nation already considers the Taliban to be a major problem and supports army actions.

Sometimes the obvious is really the case. One should not always look for conspiracy theories when there aren't any.

What makes sense is the exact opposite. There are definite plans to go after Mehsud and team. These folks are all linked. In order to distract the Army and relieve pressure due to the up and coming ops, there is a very big possibility that these ambushes were conducted to make the Army lose focus (and they have not fallen for it).

Hi Blain / Agno,

Feels like I am being spanked hard and left out to dry----oh well my boyz---


sometimes you are the ball

sometimes you are the bat

sometimes you the fly

sometimes you are the swat


Ok---I am going to put a new twist over here----

To those who brag about TOT---we want TOT on everything---why can't we produce this---why can't we produce that----our scientists are superior to anybody---we can do whatever we want to----take a look at this scenario----we can't even afford to have a reccon plane in the air supporting our troop movement---we don't have money to buy drones either---.

Our telecom intercept quality is so inept that according to the news reports, the taliban had been on the air for three days gathering troops to strike---and I am going by the news articles that Agno posted on another thread---.

What I am trying to say is that the threshold of performance has gone up by many a notches---there are still a lot of un-believers in the pak army---people who do not believe that taliban are a serious threat.

We are only getting a sanitized version of troop and equipment loss from the ispr---it maybe the truth or it may not be the truth.

The purpose of my post is to say that we are sitting in the losers corner----our millitary junta is not at par in understanding the threat level posed by the taliban for the last so many years----our air force has one more time let us down---we are just finding out that we won't have our strike air force ready for another few years----if this is the standard of readiness of my millitary when we know how serious the threat is----then I am truly appalled.

So---gentlemen---please don't get mad at me---I love you all---but try to understand this----I can only comment on " the view that I see through my window "---my perception of things---good or bad, is what it is.

So---Blain---Agno---I still love you guys---even though you may consider my view as twisted and far fetched---and you too XERIC---you know where I stand.

 

[blain2]

Your views are not twisted, rather frustrated by the situation and that is not difficult to understand. I think the losses are there for all to see. Every single death of an officer/jawan etc. is being reported upon. The losses to material are another thing, but those too cannot be more than vehicles etc.

The problem is that you and others maybe expecting a clear cut win here. Well it won't be that way. This thing will drag on for a long time before its over (and it will be over because of a combination of force and political moves, not just with the former being applied). The faqir of Ippi and others are episodes to look into to get an idea as to what it may take to get peace in that region.

The Army has some really easy solutions to this problem and the major one is to hunker down and not move. That will certainly get the casualties down, but won't take care of the problem (something that ISAF has figured out after many years and as a result you have 4000 US Marines and their ANA counterparts going into Helmand for the first time in force and on the first day of operations they have started taking casualties).

So I would end with this. Thus far nobody has a perfect solution to cater to CI. While these setbacks should be looked at and evaluated, one should not doubt the efforts of the Army and its high command just because we are taking casualties.

 

[Xeric]

Your views are not twisted, rather frustrated by the situation and that is not difficult to understand.

You took out the words from my mouth!

MK sir i know where you stand We still love you MK.

---

As for the causalities i only want to add; abhi say he dil chor baithay, there are many more families who has to spare lives for the re-birth of Pakistan, yet. It's just the start. Let's PRAY that this doesnt go out of hand. we are well prepared to take on the task this time. By God the causalities would have been atleast 20-30 times if the same operation had been launched a few years back. We have come a long way since this terrorism shyt was born. Ofcourse limitations and shortcomings are there and would remain as such. We have learned it the hard way to get this transition to a workable spot. Let me not repeat the rhetorics about the causalities and failures of the world's mightiest militraies in COIN Ops. Let's criticize,but without missing the bright side also, and atleast it really looks strange when a patriot speaks f!lthy of the military high ups, even to the extent of blaming them of deliberately getting their own men killed!

 

[inayatali]

I Salute the sons of motherland.

 

[Xeric]

Govt to get drone technology soon, says Malik | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Govt to get drone technology soon, says Malik

Published: July 04, 2009

ISLAMABAD - Interior Minister Rehman Malik has said that Pakistan will soon get the drone’s technology as United States has ensured the government in that regard.
Talking to the media persons after meeting with US Secretary for Homeland Security Janet Napilitano here on Friday, Malik said that Osama was not in Pakistan.
To a question, Interior Minister denied any talk or briefing to the US Secretary on the ongoing operation in Swat and added that the talks focused on security situation and intelligence sharing.
Earlier, Malik visited a local hospital in Rawalpindi for inquiring about the health of the persons injured in Thursday’s blast.
Talking to journalists, Malik said that Waziristan operation was targeted against Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan Chief Baitullah Mehsud and his accomplices. He said the operation was against the militants and it would continue till the complete elimination of terrorist elements. To a question, he said the government had neither indulged into an agreement with any militant group in past nor it had the intention in future.” He said that owing to terrorist threats in Punjab, he had talked to Punjab Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif so that the federal government in collaboration with the province could take precautionary measures.
He said it was agreed between them that both the Federation and the province would share information regarding the terrorists to foil their nefarious designs.

 

[MastanKhan]

You took out the words from my mouth!

Let's criticize,but without missing the bright side also, and atleast it really looks strange when a patriot speaks f!lthy of the military high ups, even to the extent of blaming them of deliberately getting their own men killed!

Hi,

When the news papers start printing articles about the telephonic chatter on the air waves by the taliban 2 to 3 days before the troop movement, the location being a very narrow pass, a place that has a previous history of hit and run by the millitants---and then this loss of life takes place---millitary should and must hear the public outcry of incompetence---because they failed in taking the precautionary measures.


" a patriot speaks f!lthy of the military high ups, even to the extent of blaming them of deliberately "

---I missed this earlier----those milltary generals are no holy cows who may not be critiscized for their incompetence, non challance and out dated mentality.

It is because of these generals---that pakistan is facing this day today. It was their job to analyze the scenario when the u s threatened to invade afghanistan---all they could talk about was another vietnam in the making for the united states----they forgot to understand and tell the public whatever happened to the poor vietnamese---

Does any pakistani understand what happened to vietnamese in vietnam---do any pakistani or any millitary guy like you understand and comprehend that what it takes to make a vietnam for the u s---does any pakistani and millitary guy like you understand that in the process pakistan would also be destroyed---oh yeah---u s may lose 5000 troops---but then we would have lost 5 million civilians---our cities destroyed---our industry in a rubble.

To date---pak millitary heirarchy has just been playing games and toying around---should I---should I not---must we---must we not---. Everybody in the world knew that these taliban and al qaeda taking refuge in pakistan would create trouble for pakistan right from day one after they started running away from afghanistan and took refuge in pakistan.

There has not been a single taliban executioner caught by the pak millitary to date---put to trial and executed.

The writing was all over on the wall for everyone to see---except for the pak generals. So---please don't get me started---I haven't forgotten what happened at the K---.

 

[Xeric]

Hi,

When the news papers start printing articles about the telephonic chatter on the air waves by the taliban 2 to 3 days before the troop movement, the location being a very narrow pass, a place that has a previous history of hit and run by the millitants---and then this loss of life takes place---millitary should and must hear the public outcry of incompetence---because they failed in taking the precautionary measures.


" a patriot speaks f!lthy of the military high ups, even to the extent of blaming them of deliberately "

---I missed this earlier----those milltary generals are no holy cows who may not be critiscized for their incompetence, non challance and out dated mentality.

It is because of these generals---that pakistan is facing this day today. It was their job to analyze the scenario when the u s threatened to invade afghanistan---all they could talk about was another vietnam in the making for the united states----they forgot to understand and tell the public whatever happened to the poor vietnamese---

Does any pakistani understand what happened to vietnamese in vietnam---do any pakistani or any millitary guy like you understand and comprehend that what it takes to make a vietnam for the u s---does any pakistani and millitary guy like you understand that in the process pakistan would also be destroyed---oh yeah---u s may lose 5000 troops---but then we would have lost 5 million civilians---our cities destroyed---our industry in a rubble.

To date---pak millitary heirarchy has just been playing games and toying around---should I---should I not---must we---must we not---. Everybody in the world knew that these taliban and al qaeda taking refuge in pakistan would create trouble for pakistan right from day one after they started running away from afghanistan and took refuge in pakistan.

There has not been a single taliban executioner caught by the pak millitary to date---put to trial and executed.

The writing was all over on the wall for everyone to see---except for the pak generals. So---please don't get me started---I haven't forgotten what happened at the K---.

Oh come on MK.
Gen are NOT holy cows, but again they are not house rats! One.

Two, all that you have said is valid, less the point that the 'Generals' should have done this or they should have done that. Unfortunately Corps Commander Multan or CC Mangla is paid to educate fellow Pakistanis about Nam or some other blunder, it is yours and alike. i wish had our Army been able to independent decisions about tackling with this buggers, i am sure this state of affair had not risen to this point! You saw what happened when the Army went in WANA for the very very first time! Remember? It was the Nation and many like you sitting anywhere abroad who criticize the Army for killing 'own' people! The media, the bureaucracy, the politicians, the comon man, non was supporting the military action and now you blame the generals to foresee this menace!! Had or nation understood the f!lth of terrorism the day first suicide bomb took place and an action should have been taken against the defaulters the evil should have been nipped in the bud!! But no, who cares! the media is there to earn money, politicians are there earn cheap popularity, writers are there to write whatever that would please their exchequer, the Nation itself have been a fool, always!

Why the operation in Wana was stopped? Why did many had problems when miscreants from Balochistan were flushed out? What the heck went wrong when traitor, an insigator and separatist like Bugti got killed? Now you people are making His Highness a Hero!! Alarming! And then our people have the cheeks to blame the Army for letting these fitna fasadis at loose!! Why the Lal mosque was not taken to task ASAP! Ok let's assume a blunder was committed due to the so called fringing intelligence failure (to which i dont give a hoot!) but then why to let them flourish and allow then to have the guts to counter the use of deadly force? Oh yes the molvi who was caught in the fringing burkha, today still our dear Nation holds him high and praise him, the idiot who dont even had the guts and face a bullet for what he had done! What heck was he released? i tell you why, the molvi sirs will again 'preach' and so learnerd and educated youth will again follow him and when the water woulf cross our heads and that idiot would again threaten us all with suicde attacks, when again schools would be made hostage, when again CD shops would be burnt and when again women folk would be man handled for nor wearing a burkha, the Army would be asked to clean the f!lth, again a fringing operation or may be not, but in the end the military would stand no where, all would forget that Molvi saab was released by the holy civilian govt and was let lose and allowed to do what ever he wants and when he ultimately reached the point where he could explode the military was sent in to TAKE ALL THE BLAME!!

Militaries, policing, law enforcement and civilians affairs dont happen independently, they all are inter-dependent! The face always has to be civilian and tool always is military. It is the civilians who plan how to go about a problem and it is then they task the military to wind it up in the developed countries, NOT the other way around!! How many time have you seen CENTCOM commander coming on media and tell the american nation that we are going in Afghanistan or how many time have you seen a uniformed general telling the amrican nation about the reasons for going in Iraq? Whose decision was it to invade Iraq or Afghansitan? General David Howell Petraeus? No sir, it was their govt's. The military did what they were told to and they didnt do what they were not told to. A uniformed men's decision is to unfold when he is fighting on ground not when he is preparing for any war in his barracks!

Yes, you could have blamed the Army if it was once asked or i must say ordered by the GoP to act against the terrorists in Swat and it failed to respond in time! You should blame the military if Lal Mosque operation once launched fialed to clear off the mosque! You should have blamed the military if when it was told to operate in Balochistan failed to achieve its short time objectives! How much times before did you know that an operation would start in Swat? Months, Weeks, Days?? or may be it was when the first bullet downed a fringing terrorist!! Isnt it? That's what you call planning and military way of working! If 3 million pored into out borders was the Army asked to flush then away? No! So why ask the answer from military, now many would say who brought them in at the first place, well i'll say can you give me a better alternative to what Zia did?

FYI, i must tell you that when the first afghan crossed into Pakistan we were knowing and we planned accordingly, that is for what the Generals are paid for. You ask today that india should be attacked by the next first light and if the military fails to mount a devastating blow it is then you should be bothered. If the military is incompetent in its task at hand then you must be bothered. Please let the civilian do what they do best and let us do what we expertise in! Dont suggest to interchange their roles.

And BTW, i was talking to a classfellow in States yesterday and he was still saying WTF are doing in Swat and i was like , is still there some thing left to see? That's what our elite think and then you blame the military for not doing it right! Or may be we should have a dictator sitting everywhere who can get the things done on spot with having a popular support? Last word, Armies take strength from its people, it has to take along its people for whatever it does, wars are people's wars, the military is just the leading face, it is the people who are fighting war actually! And luckily they are on our side this time and we are not stopping!

i hope you understood what i wanted to say MK sir.

 

[blain2]

Believe what you must..there is plenty of blood and action to negate this feeling of being toyed around by the Army.

Does any pakistani understand what happened to vietnamese in vietnam---do any pakistani or any millitary guy like you understand and comprehend that what it takes to make a vietnam for the u s---does any pakistani and millitary guy like you understand that in the process pakistan would also be destroyed---oh yeah---u s may lose 5000 troops---but then we would have lost 5 million civilians---our cities destroyed---our industry in a rubble.

Not sure why you are trying to explain to us the harms of bringing shock and awe upon ourselves? Nobody is suggesting that there is any desire to bring any such misfortune upon Pakistan by anyone. There is a lot of other strategic stuff that is being left out of this discussion by simply laying the blame on the Army for allowing these elements to remain. That discussion will open up a can of worms here so I am not going into it. Just want to end with a fact. The Army has no ulterior motives here.