Ataturk's Legacy vs Caliphate and implications for Pakistan

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Results?

The mustapha kemal died 1938, having ruled from around the mid-1920's.

he believed in democracy, freedom of speech, gender equality, right to education, and he managed to unite people of differing backgrounds and create the notion of nationhood. He even created a language.

Even today his ideas are not out-dated

There was an article in the Pakistan army magazine from an officer who was the Pakistani military attache in the 1950's. He stated that as part of his job, he travelled all over Turkey via road and rail. His view was that at that time Pakistan was ahead of Turkey in all fields .

Your point?

Pakistan was ahead of China even, in the 1950s. We were a paragon of economic growth and industrialization in those days. South Koreans were rushing to Pakistan, marvelling at our growth and seeking economic advice from us!

Turkeys economic resurgence took place as a result of economic plans in the sixties and 70's, not before.

that's true. But by then, at least their democratic institutions were strong, despite some hiccups.

of

74 million Turks follow him? This is a result of the educational policy that virtually deifies him in all schools, and training institutes; and makes him synonymous with Turkish nationalism. One of the reasons for moving the capital to Ankara from Istanbul was the animosity that the people of Istanbul had for him at the time.

i'm afraid I will have to request some documentation and proof of this. I find it very hard to believe.

And i have lived in Turkey for a good 3 years. I'm pretty familiar with the popular opinions on the street.
You don't seem to realise that there are two sides to this.[/QUOTE]

 

[zagahaga]

all i think is that we as a nation should stop spending on our miltary billions upon billions of $$$$$$$$$$$$ like turkey they look at their economy more than miltary ..... we should to.we should stop with this war with india and for adleast 1 decade focus on the economy not the miltary like india 1990 was their decade to expand and they did! they way more powerful than us... while us.....errrrmmm still beging . we should go on wit war on terror but all this spending should STOP, i hope imran khan becomes presedent then we shall see change

 

[Waqas Dar]

all i think is that we as a nation should stop spending on our miltary billions upon billions of $$$$$$$$$$$$ like turkey they look at their economy more than miltary ..... we should to.we should stop with this war with india and for adleast 1 decade focus on the economy not the miltary like india 1990 was their decade to expand and they did! they way more powerful than us... while us.....errrrmmm still beging . we should go on wit war on terror but all this spending should STOP, i hope imran khan becomes presedent then we shall see change

in my opinion, pakistan and turkey are closly bonded muslim countries, the muslims of subcontinent started the khilafah movement for turkish empire in 1930s and turkish people respect that even today.

turkey is well developed both economically and militarily, i think its time for pakistan to learn from turky in both the fields and become a progressive muslim country of the world.

 

[Nutuk]

Quote:
Turkeys economic resurgence took place as a result of economic plans in the sixties and 70's, not before.

that's true. But by then, at least their democratic institutions were strong, despite some hiccups.

Absolutely not!! Before 1950'ties Turkey had a great vision of being absolutely independent, we had factories, military defence industry and we even designed our own airplanes. Ever since Turkey joined NATO in 1952 our stupid politicians did everything to make Turkey dependent on all fronts, they closed down the factories, closed down our aircraft production plants etc. etc.

I can pretty much say that between 1952 and 1974 Turkey acted like drugged, completely surrendered to NATO. Our little war on Cyprus (1974) was an eyeopener when our so-called ally USA imposed an embargo on Turkey. Since then Turkey started again a course to lessen our dependency, we are still NATO member but have a clear course like Turkish industry first. Our NATO entry may have saved us from the Soviets but it enslaved us economically and industrially.

 

[araz]

he believed in democracy, freedom of speech, gender equality, right to education, and he managed to unite people of differing backgrounds and create the notion of nationhood. He even created a language.


Brother
Since when is statutory abolition of a religious system ,without the masses having any say in the matter, got anything to do with democracy and freedom of speech? Ataturk may have been good for Turkey but in his imposition of the system he was certainly not democratic.
It is the same logic people adapt with the origins of Pakistan. If two nation theory is right and formed the basis of Pakistan's origins, then the idea of secularism goes down the drain. If you support secularism then either what has been rammed down our throats for the last 6 decades was a bunch of lies or Mr Jinnah was no different to Zia Ul Haq. At least the latter said his prayers.(No disrespect meant to either of the two__ used it purely as an analogy)
You cannot separate Islam and politics because then you cant say that it is a complete system of life. What you can say is that true Islam is not being practised anywhere in the world today which is why we are in our current state of decay. Islam is not the domain of the Mullah.Ultimately the responsibility of its imposition lies with all of US Muslims, not the Mullah of our era. In many ways the fact that we have handed over the right to decreeing all that is right in religion the very root cause of our decay. I dont think we will go anywhere till we revert to our religion.
Another common factor in this debate is the common misinterpretation that somehow we will have to go back 1400 yrs to re enact the Islam of the prophet (PBUH). If you refer to the Quran it reiteraes the fact theat the rules and regulations of our religion are timeless and will conform to all times. All that we need to do is read the Quran and utilize the wisdom of it and the Seerah of the prophet to confor m to the challanges that we face today. However this must be done with absolute honesty and integrity. Peole have often uninformedly said Islam needs a new rennaisance ___, i believe it is thew Muslims rater than the Islam who need a rennaisance. But we need to look back in order to look ahead at least till we get our bearings right.
May Allah (SWT) give us the knowledge and fortitude to do so.
Jazak Allaho Khair
WaSalam
Araz

 

[araz]

MODS
This topic has gone way off line. We need to move the debate about Turkey, Ataturk and Islam away from this naval forum.
PLEASE TAKE NOTE
Araz

 

[zagahaga]

in my opinion, pakistan and turkey are closly bonded muslim countries, the muslims of subcontinent started the khilafah movement for turkish empire in 1930s and turkish people respect that even today.

turkey is well developed both economically and militarily, i think its time for pakistan to learn from turky in both the fields and become a progressive muslim country of the world.

well you see ill tell you some thing we should just focus on the economy that it! for adleast 1 year !!!!!

 

[jamal18]

MODS
This topic has gone way off line. We need to move the debate about Turkey, Ataturk and Islam away from this naval forum.
PLEASE TAKE NOTE
Araz

Yes. I had to reply because this became a mustapha kemal fan club.

 

[Quwa]

now where does this hadith tells that Khilafah is the right form out of all these. its just classification or rather foretelling the systems.Pl also tell us if this hadith is related by other books of hadiths too.
according to this hadith if God wishes he would change the system. i think you should not blame Ataturk then.

In Islam, the "Khilafah" is the only legitimate form of government and state; it literally means "viceregency" - i.e. the system that implements the laws of the Creator. There are loads of ayat and hadith that condemn those who break the Islamic system. How we organize and implement the system in technical and administrative terms is up to us, but the laws cannot change.

The laws that must remain include:

1. Education for all persons, irrespective of gender, religion, social class, race, ethnicity, etc.

2. A fair, stable and productive economic system...not subservient policies to Western neo-liberalism - and by consequence Western policies. We decide how we trade, who we trade with and what we trade.

3. A leadership and government can be held by the balls. IF they implement open kufr, by supporting jahl mullahs or Bush, they can be removed from power. So characters like Zardari would be deposed without question.

4. Land-reform; public ownership of natural resources & water, etc.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Since when is statutory abolition of a religious system ,without the masses having any say in the matter, got anything to do with democracy and freedom of speech? Ataturk may have been good for Turkey but in his imposition of the system he was certainly not democratic.

he met no resistance.....Turkiye was a new nation. The Ottoman Empire was GONE.

They wouldnt be one country if the people were against the new nation. They have Kurds, Azeri-Turks, Lors, Assyrians, Tatars, Armenian-Turks, Greek-Turks, and various other ethnic groups

how did they manage to all unite and embrace the flag?

It is the same logic people adapt with the origins of Pakistan. If two nation theory is right and formed the basis of Pakistan's origins, then the idea of secularism goes down the drain. If you support secularism then either what has been rammed down our throats for the last 6 decades was a bunch of lies or Mr Jinnah was no different to Zia Ul Haq. At least the latter said his prayers.(No disrespect meant to either of the two__ used it purely as an analogy)

What they did in their private life was their own business. That is my point! I am sick and tired of people thinking they have moral authority over others to be a "good follower"

Secondly, Pakistan was created as a safe haven primarily for Muslims. But we also have non-Muslim brothers and sisters who are also proud to call themselves Pakistani. I want Pakistan to be a primarily Muslim country, with a secular government and establishment.

If NRO and Kerry-Luger bill take 3-4 weeks to be debated in parliament.....how long will it take for all ulema to decide what is "real Shariah" ??? 387 years?

You cannot separate Islam and politics because then you cant say that it is a complete system of life.

i'm not convinced

What you can say is that true Islam is not being practised anywhere in the world today which is why we are in our current state of decay.

Our decay is because of bad leadership....When things are bad at leader level, its hard for civilian to learn proper things. If you grant basic services to the poor and down-trodden, then the problems will not persist.

I do agree that Muslim nations need to unite and set aside differences, but I just don't see that happening anytime soon. I don't see Saudi Arabia embracing Iran. I don't see Muslim countries helping our brothers and sisters in Sudan or Somalia.

we can talk about that **** all day. But in the end, we need to focus JUST on Pakistan. Subse pehlay PAKISTAN.

I dont think we will go anywhere till we revert to our religion.

Being religious only will not get us anywhere. We need to take the proper steps. Allah SWT only helps those who help themselves. Playing around with a tasbee all day and memorizing the Quran wont help you develop your country.

All that we need to do is read the Quran and utilize the wisdom of it and the Seerah of the prophet to confor m to the challanges that we face today. However this must be done with absolute honesty and integrity.

I agree. But i don't think that is "all we need to do"

May Allah (SWT) give us the knowledge and fortitude to do so.

Inshallah. Ameen.

 

[Quwa]

Being "religious" is only confined to the salah or fasting, but being "Islamic" cannot be limited to anything, not even your thoughts. Islam itself means "submission", and the Islamic State is the one that gives absolute sovereignty to Allah SWT -- not the scholars.

The Prophet SLAWS was worried about the scholars and priests: he condemned the ones who made laws from their whims and desires, and then justified them under religion. This is true. However, he generally condemned all who legislated laws from their whims and desires -- even if they didn't justify it by claiming it is Islam. At the end of the day, what we are trying to do is...is to align our societies and state with what Islam demands.

Ask yourselves, do you think Allah SWT will help those who not only seek His guidance, but reject His orders upon them?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Being "religious" is only confined to the salah or fasting, but being "Islamic" cannot be limited to anything, not even your thoughts. Islam itself means "submission", and the Islamic State is the one that gives absolute sovereignty to Allah SWT -- not the scholars.

The Prophet SLAWS was worried about the scholars and priests: he condemned the ones who made laws from their whims and desires, and then justified them under religion. This is true. However, he generally condemned all who legislated laws from their whims and desires -- even if they didn't justify it by claiming it is Islam. At the end of the day, what we are trying to do is...is to align our societies and state with what Islam demands.

Ask yourselves, do you think Allah SWT will help those who not only seek His guidance, but reject His orders upon them?

i understand where u are going with this.

But basically, you are implying that democracy is not compatible with Islam. And I have serious reservations on this notion.


PM me, we can discuss in private. I don't want this thread getting 'de-railed' with off-topic talk

 

[Quwa]

i understand where u are going with this.

But basically, you are implying that democracy is not compatible with Islam. And I have serious reservations on this notion.


PM me, we can discuss in private. I don't want this thread getting 'de-railed' with off-topic talk

No problem. Sorry for taking this thread off course.

 

[truepakistani17]

is this thread really running in PN discussion forum????
i guess guys this is not the channel to tell other how much you like or dislike Mustafa Kamal or turkey.
please get back to topic and we can continue with this discussion in some relavent section, please.
thanks

 

[araz]

People
Please assign a new thread for Ataturk and isla and lets continue outr debat e there
Araz