Asim munier murda bad: skardu

[imadul]

The Fauj was also involved in sparkling sectarian tensions with their links to sectarian terrorist groups like the LeT/ASWJ, as well as the more recent extremist groups like TLP.

If the Fauj can throw innocent civilians and popular political leaders in prison over fabricated charges, torture them, ignore court orders for bail and release, then why haven’t they used the same process to throw extremist and sectarian leaders into jail and cracked down on their organizations?

Its all part of the Fauj’s depraved games to keep power. They have pitted sect against sect and supported a venal, corrupt political, land owning and business elite to keep the pot boiling and in that instability is where they flourish and tell the country, ‘see, the Fauj is the only entity that can protect you, not these incompetent civilians’.

Lets hope that it isn’t too late to fix all the damage done by this rotten institution over decades and decades.

What if a new secterian war is kindled now?
I am very much afraid this possibility.

Absolutely, each & every fitna engulfing Pakistanis has been manufactured by Paleed Fauj.

Folks, don't say this.
What is the fault of a common soldier?
I know we all are carried away, but we need to be discreet.
Jawans can't ask a question. This is what they are trained to do!
"Don't Ask."

 

[Signalian]

Before taking out army from politics we need to have some basic and fundamental restructuring done in the politics side.

1. Change in election rules, if want proper democracy then remove this family politics from our political system.

2. Just like western system, head of parties should be seasoned politicians and they should be selected for a fixed term and replaced by new cadre, so we are not stuck with just a few for decades. And no family members to succeed or even given any key post in party or govt.

3. Conflict of interest should be introduced. Businessman, industrialists, jagirdars etc should be cut from politics.

4. Based on 1 province result, no one should rule whole of Pakistan. Whoever wins Punjab, rules all other 3 provinces.

5. Reduce number of MNA and MPAs and they should be good education qualified.
Their JD should be to listen to their people and with help of govt and bureaucracy resolve hardships and legislature.

6. Key posts in ministry should be highly qualified ppl like in USA. President selects professional ppl and runs with oversight of congressman and senators.

7. Elections should be party majority win based. A party should come and its head is responsible to run the country for 5 years and make policies based on ground realities rather then blackmailed by army chief or politicians. Like taxes on property, smuggling stoppage, agri income tax etc etc.

8. Army power in hand of a single person to be abolished. COAS should not be so powerful.

9. Reduce number of lt generals and maj generals and brigadiers. Give brigade command to full Cols, div to brigadier, corps to major generals and only sector commander be Lt Gen that also just 2-3 ones, not more. CJCSC should have administrative command of corps commanders ensuring postings and promotions are his prerogative. Same for air force and navy.

Israeli Army is a role model. Colonel commands Brigade, Brigadier Commands a Division and the IDF chief is a Major General who reports to Chief of General Staff who is a Lt General.

Our army gives brigadier and maj gen and lt gen promotions and positions as if public langar khanaaa hai.

We have 2 full gens, 30+ or so Lt Gens and 210-220+ major generals making something like 250 generals leaving aside double the number of brigadiers.

USA army who are double our size and much more complicated and professional have total 220-230 generals.

10. Control the army business empire and make them a professional soldiers instead of property dealers and heading civilian posts which they r not qualified for. 2 decades of war and our army cannot provide basic armoured like MRAP or small arms protected vehicles to army and they wanna run the country. First run ur army. Today 9 soldiers martyred in suicide attack in Bannu, a motorbike borne suicide bomber.

And i can keep on going as we need very serious structural changes in our political setup, economic setup and military setup.

Law of the land is to be made supreme so ppl can get justice as what we are seeing since last 3 months is utter brutality which is giving more hatred and increasing day by day especially with the economic meltdown we are going through.

Dont wait that people reach to your army walaaa and politicians homes. Times are changing, last few months have clearly shown ppl now will not be distracted by shaheed card, statue of karnal sher khan card even though it was never his statue as he was from Sindh regt and martyred in NLI thus his statue cannot be infront of PRC mardan, and the jinnah house card as now whole nation knows how army captured this place and the words to give some money to the boorhiyaa / and kutia word used came to be known. So whatever card army is playing its failing miserably.

So army leadership koo hosh kae nakhun lainay chahiyea or we may face very dire situation.

Excellent points

 

[Signalian]

Before taking out army from politics we need to have some basic and fundamental restructuring done in the politics side.

1. Change in election rules, if want proper democracy then remove this family politics from our political system.

2. Just like western system, head of parties should be seasoned politicians and they should be selected for a fixed term and replaced by new cadre, so we are not stuck with just a few for decades. And no family members to succeed or even given any key post in party or govt.

3. Conflict of interest should be introduced. Businessman, industrialists, jagirdars etc should be cut from politics.

4. Based on 1 province result, no one should rule whole of Pakistan. Whoever wins Punjab, rules all other 3 provinces.

5. Reduce number of MNA and MPAs and they should be good education qualified.
Their JD should be to listen to their people and with help of govt and bureaucracy resolve hardships and legislature.

6. Key posts in ministry should be highly qualified ppl like in USA. President selects professional ppl and runs with oversight of congressman and senators.

7. Elections should be party majority win based. A party should come and its head is responsible to run the country for 5 years and make policies based on ground realities rather then blackmailed by army chief or politicians. Like taxes on property, smuggling stoppage, agri income tax etc etc.

8. Army power in hand of a single person to be abolished. COAS should not be so powerful.

9. Reduce number of lt generals and maj generals and brigadiers. Give brigade command to full Cols, div to brigadier, corps to major generals and only sector commander be Lt Gen that also just 2-3 ones, not more. CJCSC should have administrative command of corps commanders ensuring postings and promotions are his prerogative. Same for air force and navy.

Israeli Army is a role model. Colonel commands Brigade, Brigadier Commands a Division and the IDF chief is a Major General who reports to Chief of General Staff who is a Lt General.

Our army gives brigadier and maj gen and lt gen promotions and positions as if public langar khanaaa hai.

We have 2 full gens, 30+ or so Lt Gens and 210-220+ major generals making something like 250 generals leaving aside double the number of brigadiers.

USA army who are double our size and much more complicated and professional have total 220-230 generals.

10. Control the army business empire and make them a professional soldiers instead of property dealers and heading civilian posts which they r not qualified for. 2 decades of war and our army cannot provide basic armoured like MRAP or small arms protected vehicles to army and they wanna run the country. First run ur army. Today 9 soldiers martyred in suicide attack in Bannu, a motorbike borne suicide bomber.

And i can keep on going as we need very serious structural changes in our political setup, economic setup and military setup.

Law of the land is to be made supreme so ppl can get justice as what we are seeing since last 3 months is utter brutality which is giving more hatred and increasing day by day especially with the economic meltdown we are going through.

Dont wait that people reach to your army walaaa and politicians homes. Times are changing, last few months have clearly shown ppl now will not be distracted by shaheed card, statue of karnal sher khan card even though it was never his statue as he was from Sindh regt and martyred in NLI thus his statue cannot be infront of PRC mardan, and the jinnah house card as now whole nation knows how army captured this place and the words to give some money to the boorhiyaa / and kutia word used came to be known. So whatever card army is playing its failing miserably.

So army leadership koo hosh kae nakhun lainay chahiyea or we may face very dire situation.

I think for point#5, even if a common man tries to reach out to any MPA or MPA and records the whole process (covertly even) and then hands it over to media or makes a vlog about it and when that video spreads on media showing the tedious as well as time consuming process at the end of which the common man may or may not meet the MPA/MNA - can be the first step towards change.

 

[MilSpec]

You’ve shown yourself to be good at comprehending English over the years so I can only assume that you’re cherry picking one line out of one post and ignoring reams of other detailed posts, not just on this thread, but across the forum for over a year now.

True.. its called fatigue

That said, let me spell it out for you (again) - the issue here is the Fauj violating the constitution, rigging elections, manipulating civilian institutions and politicians to achieve ANY kind of result, whether in favor or against the PTI, PMLN, PPP, TLP or JUI.

Whats new... That has been happening since day 1 of your formation.

The demand is for the Fauj to STOP this unconstitutional political meddling and fascist crackdown on ANY political party or dissenter and accept the authority of ANY civilian government elected through genuinely free and fair elections.

A famous fauji once said “I think the constitution is just a piece of paper to be thrown in the dustbin.”, Ring any bells? I remember you singing sonnets of the same Jurnail saab. And then to turn around with unending mohabbat for the constitution.... quite perplexing.

So, to get back to your original comment, the Fauj committed the crimes, and only if individuals in government deliberately acted to violate the law would the politicians or government officials be guilty of a crime.

For example, the PDM has knowingly gone along and supported the fascist Fauj crackdown against the PTI and other dissenters. Any government officials knowingly involved in this crackdown should be held reaponsible.

Crack down on Fatima Bhutto by Ayub, on Mujib by Ayub/Yahhya/Bhutto, on Benazir/Nawaz by Musharraf, Musharraf By Sharif, on Nawaz by IK/Bajwa...... Did we just wake up from Coma?
This has been the norm, not exception.

 

[VkdIndian]

Before taking out army from politics we need to have some basic and fundamental restructuring done in the politics side.

Even 30-40% of this, if implemented, might make Paksiatn the most functional democracy on the planet.

Some of the suggested steps, can be implemented by a strong willed political leader. IK showed a flair for the same. Some people blame him, for taking the support of the Establishment and then turning against them, when he didn’t like them. That’s what politics is all about. If that is the route required to reach the top and then put them on leash, then so be it. That’s what a willy leader should and would do.

 

[indushek]

True.. its called fatigue




Whats new... That has been happening since day 1 of your formation.

A famous fauji once said “I think the constitution is just a piece of paper to be thrown in the dustbin.”, Ring any bells? I remember you singing sonnets of the same Jurnail saab. And then to turn around with unending mohabbat for the constitution.... quite perplexing.



Crack down on Fatima Bhutto by Ayub, on Mujib by Ayub/Yahhya/Bhutto, on Benazir/Nawaz by Musharraf, Musharraf By Sharif, on Nawaz by IK/Bajwa...... Did we just wake up from Coma?
This has been the norm, not exception.

People went with the Big boy in town, which is always the case when there is no functioning democracy. It suited back then, cause they kept the so called wolfs at bay.

While there have been bigger and popular leaders in the past too, the narrative set by the Big boy worked on populace of the wolfs at door over the decades. So the people kept two min of silence and went on their ways, whenever the Big boy took out these leaders.

The narrative has now unraveled, and social media has helped people connect far better. So the Big Boy is now struggling to keep the narrative going, and with a popular leader asking for handover of power fully to him they did they what they do best.

There is a saying in my mother tongue, Desh Kaal Maan Paristhiti .. one has to keep this on mind before doing anything. The Country one is in, the times they live in, One's own standing, and the situation. Both the Big Boy and the popular leader didn't care for these, and the situation has come to this.

You mentioned all these leaders, but is there any taller than Jinnah saab in Pakistan? His death is said to be a conspiracy to this day. A precedence was set right here, which followed every so called big leader after this.

What happened to his sister or for that matter Liaqat Ali Khan? This has been a never ending tale.

 

[Cash GK]

What if a new secterian war is kindled now?
I am very much afraid this possibility.


Folks, don't say this.
What is the fault of a common soldier?
I know we all are carried away, but we need to be discreet.
Jawans can't ask a question. This is what they are trained to do!
"Don't Ask."

I feel sorry for common soldiers. As my family graveyard is full with shaeeds. We are fighting against some dirty eggs. When they get into office they become gods

 

[truthseeker2010]

They are actually duffers. Just simple graduates and then get Bachelor's degree in PMA from their own university / education setup and then mostly get educated in NUST or NDU..

Plus they have no temperament to do discussion, in their dictionary what they say is the law and that is why Pakistan is today fcuked up.

Except for just a few, majority are duffers and have low intellectual capability.

And i feel sorry to be saying this especially with so many close family relatives in army and a former strong supporter of army.

Now i feel angry seeing them in cantonment areas and on checkpoints, cant help myself doing a salam to them. Just show my ID card with eyes in front and speed away. There was a time used to give jalebis and cold drinks on eid to the nearest checkpoint from my home.

They have lost their respect and dignity.

That's why I consider khaki creatures as worst form of living things.

 

[imadul]

I feel sorry for common soldiers. As my family graveyard is full with shaeeds. We are fighting against some dirty eggs. When they get into office they become gods

Salute to you and your/our Shaheeds.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Even 30-40% of this, if implemented, might make Paksiatn the most functional democracy on the planet.

Some of the suggested steps, can be implemented by a strong willed political leader. IK showed a flair for the same. Some people blame him, for taking the support of the Establishment and then turning against them, when he didn’t like them. That’s what politics is all about. If that is the route required to reach the top and then put them on leash, then so be it. That’s what a willy leader should and would do.

Fully agreed, but problem is that establishment is so strong that u cannot go against it from right away u come in power. Sometimes u have to go with the flow and make changes corrections on the way.

Take Turkiye for example, first the political leadership made economic progress, made ppl aware of their rights, and when the day came, same ppl stood against the military and stopped them from taking over.

 

[VkdIndian]

establishment is so strong that u cannot go against it from right away u come in power. Sometimes u have to go with the flow and make changes corrections on the way

IK should have learnt this by now.

He should use them to get back to power and then show them their place after few years.

 

[indushek]

IK should have learnt this by now.

He should use them to get back to power and then show them their place after few years.

Its too late now, his cat is out of the bag. They won't let him anywhere near Gaddi

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM could have completely reversed the course set by QJB when he became the chief and the healing process would have started and he would have become a hero.

There is that infamous comment from Maryam Nawaz during a Jalsa that strongly suggests Asim Munir was appointed to the COAS position by the PDM precisely because he promised this crackdown.

“Asim Munir, Jo waada kiya hai woh nibhana ho ga — Asim Munir, you’ll have to fulfill the promise you made”

What will work - IMO - is the PA itself concluding (or being led to conclude) that in today’s social, media, younger demographic and political landscape, it can retain its prestige and influence only if it withdraws into the background and users levers of influence that are far subtler. In short, the institution follows a path of self interest that is also beneficial to the nation.

Absolutely, which is precisely why I have disagreed with some of my peers on taking a more ‘toned down’ approach towards the Fauj’s transgressions and wait for some ‘gradual change’.

The Fauj, as you pointed out, will not cede power unless the cons of continuing the status quo outweigh the benefits.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Folks, don't say this.
What is the fault of a common soldier?
I know we all are carried away, but we need to be discreet.
Jawans can't ask a question. This is what they are trained to do!
"Don't Ask."

The stink of the leadership eventually permeates the entire organization.

While I completely agree that the average foot soldier may not be guilty, this scale of intervention in the elections, judiciary, law enforcement, media, illegal surveillance and buying and selling of Politicians is not the work of just one or two or even a few men at the top - there are thousands of people involved and there is no way the rest of the top tier military leadership (and perhaps quite a few of the mid-level officers) does not know what the Fauj is doing, and they are choosing to do nothing and stay silent (barring the individuals that leaked the cipher to the Intercept).

The chiefs leave after 3 years, or 6 or 10 … You’re not going to make it painful enough for the Fauj to change by just focusing on the chiefs. Criticism will be (and should be) directed at the institution to make it lose respect and credibility (already pretty much there) to the point that it sees more harm in continuing its constitutional violations than benefits.

An oft used analogy of cancer - the cancer has spread through the body, half measures and targeted surgery won’t work - complete chemo and radiation therapy is required to root it out and even then we can only hope its not too late for the patient to survive.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And then to turn around with unending mohabbat for the constitution.... quite perplexing.

Being sentient and having some degree of intelligence does allow one to absorb new information, evolve and change.

I can only speak for myself. I genuinely believed the Fauj was removing itself from poitics and the PTI winning the 2018 elections was another sign of the same, especially after 2 successive PPP and PMLN governments post Musharraf.

Yes, many of us still believed there was rigging in the 2018 elections that reduced the PTI’s overall strength, but we were all so giddy with the thought of FINALLY breaking out of the vicious cycle of musical chairs of Military Coups, Sharifs and Zardaris, that we missed the Fauj’s continued political machinations and manipulation. We were just happy that a political party geuinely focussed on the middle and lower class was finally doing many things we had yearned for — universal healthcare, expanded safety nets for the poor etc etc.

And then, with the PTI’s ouster, harsh, cruel reality hit us in the face. And of course the house of cards kept falling as the Fauj, through its statements and actions, removed any semblance of being ‘neutral’, whilst loudly proclaiming to be just that.

Democracy is weak in Pakistan, run by a corrupt venal landowning and business elite because that is precisely what the Fauj wants, because such an elite can be controlled and manipulated.