Aryans vs Dravidians?

[LaBong]

I just checked the harappa project and found out I have Siberian trace in me! Although I wished for viking, viking nahi milega kya ?

 

[INDIC]

The problem is indians always try to mix science with their own religion, that's why I will never trust any scientific or historical news coming out of India

History of India from 1500BC-700BC is mostly preserved in Hindu religious texts. Historians mainly take the help of Vedas to study history of that period. After 700BC there are various archeological sites and manuscripts to study the history of India and additional Jain and Buddhist religious texts.

 

[farhan_9909]

i could be wrong


But arent the oldest and most historic sites of south asia located in Pakistan?
be it IVC/Gandhara or mehrgarh in balochistan

And be it the Great Rig veda being written in Pakistani but ancient Pakistanis..

 

[INDIC]

i could be wrong
But arent the oldest and most historic sites of south asia located in Pakistan?
be it IVC/Gandhara or mehrgarh in balochistan

Pakistan, North and West India.

And be it the Great Rig veda being written in Pakistani but ancient Pakistanis..

Rigveda was written in plains of Punjab(Punjab of British India) between Indus and Yamuna river. You know where is Yamuna flows.

 

[farhan_9909]

Pakistan, North and West India.

Well a quick search on google about IVC and found out that atleast 80% of Pakistan was under IVC influence

Mehrgarh
Harrap
Mohenjdoro

are in pakistan though lothal in indian gujarat

Rigveda was written in plains of Punjab(Punjab of British India) between Indus and Yamuna river. You know where is Yamuna flows.

but many internet sources mention that the start was in Present Day Pakistan.

can we assume that modern Pakistan are the only indigenous people of IVC?
do we have any records of how the indigenous people of IVC looked like.because i have feeling that the people of punjab and sindh could be the indigenous people of IVC

 

[INDIC]

Well a quick search on google about IVC and found out that atleast 80% of Pakistan was under IVC influence

Mehrgarh
Harrap
Mohenjdoro

are in pakistan though lothal in indian gujarat

This one gives more detail of Indus valley sites.

but many internet sources mention that the start was in Present Day Pakistan.

Rigveda was composed in plains of Punjab between Indus and Yamuna. Punjab that once extended from Attock to Delhi during British time.

can we assume that modern Pakistan are the only indigenous people of IVC?
do we have any records of how the indigenous people of IVC looked like.because i have feeling that the people of punjab and sindh could be the indigenous people of IVC

Culture of Indus valley Civilization still exist among the Hindus of India and Pakistan. Yoga said to be originated from Indus valley, the custom of wearing bangles also started from Indus valley. The designs of great bath of Indus valley shows resemblances to Hindu ghats.

Yoga Posture from Indus valley

Folded Hands resembling Namaskar from Indus valley.

 

[pk_baloch]

i could be wrong


But arent the oldest and most historic sites of south asia located in Pakistan?
be it IVC/Gandhara or mehrgarh in balochistan

And be it the Great Rig veda being written in Pakistani but ancient Pakistanis..

@farhan_9909 read it carefully u will get ur all answer
Some called it an artificial creation while others grieved on the vivisection of an ancient land. Yet, no one realized on that fateful night of 14th of August in 1947, that an ancient land has resurrected itself from the ashes of a lost civilization. That night the people of Meluhha came to life again as Pakistan. It was celebrated as an emergence of a new nation on the world map, least realizing that with minor differences in boundaries, the map which housed the people of Meluhha for over 9000 years, simply reclaimed its heritage as Pakistan. Meluhha were the people of Indus Valley Civilization.

The sub-continent has geographically been divided into two major regions since thousands of years; the Indus Valley with its tributaries and the Ganges Valley with its tributaries, separated by the watershed created by Gurdaspur-Kathiawar Salient. The maps of these two regions roughly align with the maps of present day Pakistan and India.

Historically also these two regions have remained separate entities for most part of known history. The only period when these two regions even remained as one political unit in over 9000 years of known history, were during the era of Mauryan, Muslim and British rule. The major historic difference between the two regions was that while the people of Indus Valley created one of the oldest unified civilizations of the world and those of Ganges Valley remained separated and segregated. The Two Nations Theory which became one of the founding principles of creation of Pakistan and partition of British India in 1947, in historical hindsight, helped create status quo ante where history merely repeated itself.

During 1920s when the excavations at Harappa (Punjab, Pakistan) began, despite the veil of obscurity, British Indian establishment called Indus Valley Civilization as Indian civilization. However, later research and emergence of additional archeological, geological, historical and genetic evidence cleared much of the ambiguity. It was confirmed that not only the core of this civilization lay in modern day Pakistan but the civilization itself had its mooring deeply embedded there. And therefore it has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the people of Pakistan are the true embodiment of the ancient Meluhha.

The true impact of this great civilization can not be ascertained only through its intrinsic and internal virtues. The influence it had, which profoundly impacted and transformed the later world, can only be understood in its entirety through identifying and recognizing its linkages with religio-political evolutionary progression and subsequent development and growth. The linkages of Indus Valley Civilization with Sumer (Mesopotamia), ancient Egypt and Central Asia are accepted archeological and historical facts as does the overlap in time period of existence of these civilizations. Thus the occurrence of major events of historical impact and value related to that era can not be isolated to only one of these civilizations alone.

Major events of religio-political virtue impacted the period of existence of Indus Valley Civilization (7000 – 1300) which peaked between 3000 – 2000 BC and having declined from 1900 BC onwards till losing its trace around 1300 BC. This time period was laden with probable emergence of Prophets Nuh (Noah), Hud (Eber), Saleh (Shela) and certainly according to most scholars, the emergence of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) around 2000 BC, till Prophets Musa (Moses) 1436 – 1316 BC and Haroon (Aaron) 1439 – 1317 BC. All these Prophets spread the belief in one God (monotheism) and interestingly, as accepted by most scholars, the people of Indus Valley Civilization were the only ones who believed in monotheism out of the three contemporary civilizations.

The unified system of governance and integrated and fused economic system, peaceful nature of living and lack of identifiable war fighting and war material, the remarkably similar construction and construction methodology and unified measuring system, all point towards a unitary and inclusive way of life. In addition to this, the absence of religious places and temples, lack of clearly identifiable deities and other polytheist artifacts are but some of the examples that make Indus Valley Civilization one of the few known civilizations of that era to have practiced monotheism. This also is reflective of the fact that monotheism acted as a unifying, integrated and a cohesive societal influence impacting the people of Indus Valley Civilization.

The linkages and influence, people of this civilization had with Sumer (Mesopotamia) are fairly well pronounced. Surprisingly though, such influences are also more pronounced by the absence of Mesopotamian linkages with Indus Valley. This is reflective of their maturity and also highlights their resolve in maintaining societal independence against foreign influences, wherein the practice of monotheism was upheld against polytheism practiced in the adjoining contemporary civilizations, despite the regular contacts and interactions even through enhanced trade linkages.

This also brings out the question as to why these people practiced monotheism when the other contemporary civilizations practiced polytheism. One may find the answer within the known historical aspects related to the spread of early monotheism. The time period of its emergence, its precursor, the peak and the decline of Indus Valley Civilization clearly relates it to the probable known historical influence of Prophets of that era, who spread monotheism. The possibility that there may have been a Prophet present amongst them, whose influence chartered the course of this remarkable civilization, can not be thus completely ruled out.

These societal influences may also help solve the riddle as to why this civilization started declining after 1900 BC. Were there any linkages between the birth of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham) around 2000 BC in Sumer (Mesopotamia), who also spread monotheism. If such a probability has a measure of belief, the priests, the governing elite and a part of the population may have migrated to Sumer (Mesopotamia) after the news of Prophet Ibrahim’s (Abraham) proclamations would have reached Indus Valley. The remaining population, leaving those who could not and did not follow them to Sumer in search of Prophet Ibrahim (Abraham), were left ungoverned and thus initiated the gradual collapse of Indus Valley Civilization which many have attributed to various natural calamities, indications of which have never been confirmed beyond a reasonable doubt.

After the decline and fading out of Indus Valley Civilization, it took many more centuries in formation of an alternative local culture and life style. This apparently took the form of ancient Vedic Hindu culture which emerged during its declining period or after the civilization had faded out. The influence was quite apparent in the then emerging Vedic Hindu culture and was pronounced by the fact that it also propagated monotheism in its earlier instance, which however was later diluted to polytheism.

It took many more centuries to bring the Ganges Valley and its adjoining planes under this new found influence. Monotheism, though in a different format, did stretch its wings again and again during the course of later history, in the form of Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism, though majority continued to revert back or follow Vedic Hindu culture. The arrival of Muslims however, effected a gradual and major change and the people of Indus Valley Civilization again accepted the virtues of monotheism which they had followed thousands of years earlier.

It was this civilizational clash between monotheism and polytheism which brought to fore the Meluhha in the form of Pakistan in 1947 and re-enacted it as an embodiment of a long lost great civilization.




The vision of Pakistan’s founder Muhammad Ali Jinnah, in the 1940s did not only constitute creation of a Muslim political entity at the expense of India’s Hindu domination. It was also embedded in thousands of years of historical and geographical realities. These aspects clearly emerge from Jinnah’s interviews given to foreign correspondents where he described the geopolitical importance of Pakistan. The two nation reality also did not emerge only because of the differences between Hindu and Muslim peoples. It was an outcome of thousands of years of historical, geographical and genetic distinction between the peoples of Indus Valley Civilization and those occupying the Gangetic plains.

The existence of Indus Valley Civilization emerged though the ruins at Harappa in Punjab, Pakistan which were first described by Charles Masson in 1842, in his “Narrative of Various Journeys in Balochistan, Afghanistan, and the Punjab.” Though the site was visited by General Alexander Cunningham in 1856, who later headed the archeological survey of northern India, it was in 1921-22 that the excavations began which unearthed the great civilization buried under the sand for thousands of years.

The irony of it all was that it was General Alexander Cunningham who allowed East Indian Railways which was constructing railway line between the cities of Lahore and Karachi, to use the ancient bricks recovered from these sites as track ballast for the 150 kilometers of nearby stretch and thus destroyed much of the city of Harappa (3300 BC – 1300 BC). Mohenjodaro (2600 BC – 1900 BC) in Sindh, Pakistan was excavated by 1931. Mehrgarh (7000 BC -. 2500 BC) in Balochistan, Pakistan was discovered in 1974 and the excavations continued from 1974-86 and again from 1997-2000. Rehman Dheri (4000 BC) in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa was excavated from 1976-1980. Based on recent evidence and analyses, archeologists and historians have proclaimed that Indus Valley Civilization is over 9000 years old, making it one of the oldest civilizations of the world.

The South Asian subcontinent is principally divided into two major geographical regions; the Indus Valley and its westerly inclined tributaries, and the Ganges Valley with its easterly inclined tributaries. In his book, “The Indus Saga and the Making of Pakistan,” Aitzaz Ahsan identifies the geographical divide between these two regions as the Gurdaspur-Kathiawar salient, a watershed which is southwesterly inclined down to the Arabian Sea. This watershed also depicted the dividing line between the peoples of Indus Valley Civilization and those of Gangetic plains and also corresponds almost exactly with the current day Pakistan-India border.

Historically, only the Mauryas, Muslims and the British amalgamated these two regions as a unified state. For most of the remaining history, when one empire did not rule both the regions as a unified state, the Indus Valley Civilizational domain was always governed as one separate political entity.

Rather than an unnatural creation as propounded by many, Pakistan much more than the Gangetic plains, is an appropriate and modern embodiment of thousands of years old Indus Valley Civilization. The historical, geographical and its people’s organic linkages with Arab, Persian, Turkic and South Central Asian populace also clearly differentiates it as a distinct and definite independent identity as compared to the rest of India.

The discovery of Indus Valley Civilization in the run up to 1947 independence of Pakistan and India provided Indian nationalist Hindus an opportunity, to embed their Vedic Hindu cultural identity in a civilization, which was one of the oldest civilizations on earth and also predated emergence of Islam. However, the later identification of emergence of Vedic Hindu cultural traditions between 1500 – 600 BC, discounted such linkages. Also, the fact that Indus Valley Civilization’s cultural moorings were discovered mainly in the Indus River Valley, and partly in Ghaggar-Hakra basin and in the Doab, these cultural moorings did not find an extension into the central and lower Ganges Valley in the eastern and central Indian plains. The presence of fortified cities, town planning and drainage system, depiction of specialized epic art form and the architecture of burnt bricks, sea trade, use of seals, weights, measures and script and the custom of burying the dead in cemeteries, presented clear differentiation because of the absence of such depiction in Vedic Hindu literature and culture.

Many adherents of Indian Hindu nationalist ideology believed that India was and is a primarily Hindu nation and has Hindu religious culture in continuity from Vedic Aryans. The mosaic of cultures of the past evolving into composite Indian Hindu culture through the process of history was not based on archeological evidence but what they essentially believed in. In many cases distorting and manipulating or even forging the mute archaeological evidence through depiction of fire places as fire altars, waste pits as sacrificial pits in Harappan era sites and the imaginary reading of Sanskrit legends, was quoted in order to suit their pseudo-ideological and opportunistic interests.

Between 1900-1300 BC the civilization declined and there were no more references to Meluhha (Mesopotamian name for Indus Valley Civilization landmass) in Mesopotamian finds. However, the people who made up this great civilization continued living in places like Mehrgarh, Harappa, Mohenjodaro and other settlements long after that.

The legacy of Indus Valley Civilization lives on in present day Pakistan. Amongst some of the aspects that can still be traced to this legacy are the trade and commerce routes developed by the mentors of this great civilization. Ships from Meluhha regularly sailed from locations near modern day city of Karachi for the ports of Babylon. And they evidently made stops all along the way, as indicated through discovery of seals found in Oman, Abu Dhabi and Bahrain as well.

The city of Peshawar lies on what is thought to have been one of their main overland trade routes. That route is now a major highway that constitutes the eastern approach to the Khyber Pass and links the northwestern Indus River Plain to the highlands of Afghanistan and Central Asia. An old branch of the route runs from Peshawar, south into rugged tribal territory, through the Pakistani cities of Kohat and Bannu and the foothills of the Suleiman Mountains down across the Gomal Plain to the early historical site of Rehman Dheri.

After the decline of this civilization, the religion and language of which has still not been deciphered, at different times these people followed Vedic Hindu culture and traditions, also adopted Buddhism and in the end embraced Islam and are now overwhelmingly Muslim.

The core spread of Indus Valley Civilization primarily lay in Pakistan. The three major cities and many other sites which represent the core of Indus Valley Civilization are all located in Pakistan. However, the Indians still refer to India as the “Home of Indus Valley Civilization,” which is surprising and indeed a misnomer. India needs to realign its history and should seek its identity in its own legacy instead of claiming something to which they do not belong to.

It is the people of Pakistan who represent one of the oldest civilizations on earth. Indus Valley Civilization’s legacy is linked to Pakistan and this fact cannot be denied. The people of Pakistan thus rightly claim to be the true heirs of Indus Valley Civilization.

 

[Shabaz Sharif]

i could be wrong


But arent the oldest and most historic sites of south asia located in Pakistan?
be it IVC/Gandhara or mehrgarh in balochistan

And be it the Great Rig veda being written in Pakistani but ancient Pakistanis..

RV was written in north Punjab, Pakistan. No one disputes that, not even Indians. Thats why there is big empasis on akhand bharat.

 

[pk_baloch]

@farhan_9909 always read the posts of @shan @Nassr @Ticker ticker is another forum.

open all posts of shan and nassr

 

[farhan_9909]

This one gives more detail of Indus valley sites.

Rigveda was composed in plains of Punjab between Indus and Yamuna. Punjab that once extended from Attock to Delhi during British time.



Culture of Indus valley Civilization still exist among the Hindus of India and Pakistan. Yoga said to be originated from Indus valley, the custom of wearing bangles also started from Indus valley. The designs of great bath of Indus valley shows resemblances to Hindu ghats.

Yoga Posture from Indus valley

Folded Hands resembling Namaskar from Indus valley.

even from your link/image..majority of the major sites are within the present day Pakistan.incluidng the early farming cultures
though gujarat also has major influence of indus valley civilization

IVC culture might exist throughout india.and hindus throughout the world.

what i meant is that the Pakistani punjabi and sindhi might be muslim and had left the IVC cultures long back.
But dont you think the punjabi and sindhi are the indigenous people of IVC?

do we have any genetic evidence of IVC people and comparsion with the people of sindh,punjab and indian gujarat?

RV was written in north Punjab, Pakistan. No one disputes that, not even Indians. Thats why there is big empasis on akhand bharat.

Akhant bharat dream is only by some hardcore nationalist.

No one on pakistan and on indian side want to merge with each other.

Rig veda is one of the greatest book written in the history ever.i am proud of my punjabi and sindhi's for doing so.

@farhan_9909 always read the posts of @shan @Nassr @Ticker ticker is another forum.

open all posts of shan and nassr

I do have some sort of knowledge regarding IVC.

but i want to be neutral.

there is no doubt in the fact that Hindus has more claim over the IVC today than even the indigenous people of IVC like Punjabi,sindhi and gujarat people of indian gujarat

 

[pk_baloch]

Akhant bharat dream is only by some hardcore nationalist.

No one on pakistan and on indian side want to merge with each other.

Rig veda is one of the greatest book written in the history ever.i am proud of my punjabi and sindhi's for doing so.

vedic civilization has nothing to do with hindusium ......

 

[farhan_9909]

vedic civilization has nothing to do with hindusium ......

indeed.Hinduism is relatively a new name

IVC has to do more with sanatana dharma a birth name of hinduism.

Hinduism is rather a religion of merging of many south asian religions together.ancient south asian religions combination.

the ancient hindu of Pakistan and north india had different religion than those to the central india or south india.though they indeed were more than half identicle.

 

[INDIC]

even from your link/image..majority of the major sites are within the present day Pakistan.incluidng the early farming cultures
though gujarat also has major influence of indus valley civilization

IVC culture might exist throughout india.and hindus throughout the world.

what i meant is that the Pakistani punjabi and sindhi might be muslim and had left the IVC cultures long back.
But dont you think the punjabi and sindhi are the indigenous people of IVC?

do we have any genetic evidence of IVC people and comparsion with the people of sindh,punjab and indian gujarat?

Current People of North India and Pakistan shows mixing with number of the people from the native people of IVC, the Indo-Aryans, Later Greeks, Scythians, Kushans, Huns etc. Rajputs, Jaats, Gujjar etc. originated when the migrants from Central Asia post Mauryan period intermarried with the earlier native population of the region.

 

[Nassr]

Some Indian posters are stating that Pakistani school books teach incorrect history. Lets see how Indian school books spread communal hatred through incorrect history taught in Indian schools.

For many years now, the RSS, for example, has through its Saraswati Shishu Mandirs and Vidya Bharati primary and secondary schools, and through its Shakhas undertaken this project. They have, for example, in books published by Saraswati Shishu Mandir Prakashan for classes four and five, portrayed all communities other than the Hindus as foreigners in India, wrongly described the medieval period as the Muslim period and, following the footsteps of the British, portrayed the period as one of great oppression and decline. These books, in the name of instilling patriotism and valour among Indians, spread falsehoods, treat mythological religious figures like actual historical figures and make absurd claims such as that the Qutab Minar was built by Samudragupta. They claim that Ashoka’s advocating of Ahimsa (non-violence) spread cowardice and that the struggle for India’s freedom became a religious war against Muslims, and so on. (It is not surprising that Mahatma Gandhi, the apostle of non-violence and the builder of the freedom struggle as a common struggle of the Hindus and Muslims against British imperialism gets described in their lexicon as a Dushtatma.) Quite understandably, the National Steering Committee on Textbook Evaluation (consisting of a large number of experts from all over the country) appointed by the NCERT itself, a few years ago, came to the conclusion that the main purpose which these books would serve is to gradually transform the young children into bigoted morons in the garb of instilling in them patriotism. One may emphasise here that the communalists have focused attention on history because it is on a particular distorted and often totally fabricated presentation of history that the communal ideology is hinged.

Communalisation of Education | Mridula Mukherjee, Aditya Mukherjee

Some examples from Indian government official school text books.

A sweeping statement at the beginning of the new Medieval India textbook incorporates both Buddhism and Jainism within the fold of Hinduism, in the medieval period. This was also a period of interaction between Buddhism, Jainism and Hinduism. Buddhism and Jainism were for all practical purposes absorbed into Hinduism and virtually ceased to lead an independent existence in the country. Medieval India: A Textbook for Class XI (NCERT, 2002), p. 3

There are two deletions, from the Grade XI book by R.S. Sharma and the Grade VI book by Romila Thapar, regarding the practice of beef eating in the Vedic times. The reason cited for this deletion is that ‘historians, indologists, archaeologists and sanskritists’ have different views on this issue. All of them hold that ‘the cow was regarded [as] sacred and held a place of pride in Rig Vedic society.’ It is further stated that there is almost-definitive proof against the notion of beef eating in the Vedic period. It is cited that in the Rigveda there are twenty-one references where the cow has been termed as aghnya (‘not to be killed’).

The Politics of Hindutva and the NCERT Textbooks

There are numerous other examples which can be quoted. Lets leave it here.

 

[INDIC]

vedic civilization has nothing to do with hindusium ......

Vedas are the foundation of Hinduism and considered supreme scriptures. Central feature of Hindu tradition is the Hindu trinity seeing God with three natures- Creator, Preserver and the destroyer.

That night the people of Meluhha came to life again as Pakistan. It was celebrated as an emergence of a new nation on the world map, least realizing that with minor differences in boundaries, the map which housed the people of Meluhha for over 9000 years, simply reclaimed its heritage as Pakistan. Meluhha were the people of Indus Valley Civilization.

Half of the population of the Pakistan created on 14th august 1947 was living outside Meluhha in East Pakistan.